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I do agree with you, Beckham, but I still believe the LMG's should be a little less accurate (namely the M249 SAW variants and MG3). I haven't had any great kill streaks with a PKM or any other LMG. I do love the M249 variants as they are, but I understand how frustrating it must be for the poor old Chinese and Russkies (and OPFOR) with their slower firing weapons.

Beckham wrote:WOOT. Gazz.
Yessssssssss!
Exactly.
The Effective range of a SAW is upwards of 800m IIRC soo...yeah.

that means that the bullets will shoot pretty accurately until that range, bear in mind tho that an AR is not by any means a sniper.

masterceo wrote:that means that the bullets will shoot pretty accurately until that range, bear in mind tho that an AR is not by any means I sniper.

It's more of a bullet hose, and you aim it to pour lead on your enemies! The deviation is just you tightening the jet..... lol

aye, that's my point. Effective range doesn't mean that all the bullets will hit the target. It means that if the gunner does everything perfectly and if he shoots per single shot they normally should.

you're right that the saws are a very effective at killing, maiming and suppressing people, I think they could do with a little less accuracy in range. about your problems with sniper vs saw: I think you should keep in mind that the rifle doesn't make the sniper a sniper, it's his stealth. IRL the most effective snipers were just guys with unscoped regular rifles in perfect positions that weren't spotted in time. also I don't think it's the snipers job to kill about every saw he sees unless it's a big pain in the *** of the whole team.

the DMR could do with a slightly shorter settle time.

I couldn't agree more there Rudd

My 2 cents: Slightly less settling time for DMR. And also a slight decrease in long range accuracy for LMG. At long ranges I'ts an area-weapon. Doing this would hopefully lead to LMG's to be used more as a suppressiv ordonance.

With respect / Mellanbror

Mellanbror wrote:My 2 cents: Slightly less settling time for DMR. And also a slight decrease in long range accuracy for LMG. At long ranges I'ts an area-weapon. Doing this would hopefully lead to LMG's to be used more as a suppressiv ordonance.

With respect / Mellanbror

Why would it be a suppressiv weapon? It is made to kill not scare people ffs.
Tired of people that thinks that 90% of the military weapons only are used to scare their enemy...

A spoted sniper is a dead sniper, so if the enemy SAW spoted you, you should be killed by him.

Hfett wrote:A spoted sniper is a dead sniper, so if the enemy SAW spoted you, you should be killed by him.

Not possable to hide effictively as a sniper as at long range (where you should be) your body looks like its floating on thin air above your spot even If you think your hidden.This is why I never bother with sniper.

'Sirex[SWE wrote:[MoW];1367686']Why would it be a suppressiv weapon? It is made to kill not scare people ffs.
Tired of people that thinks that 90% of the military weapons only are used to scare their enemy...

Actually, for every insurgent a squad kills they can go through 2 tons of ammo.

=/ Which is why deviation makes sense actually.

masterceo wrote:aye, that's my point. Effective range doesn't mean that all the bullets will hit the target. It means that if the gunner does everything perfectly and if he shoots per single shot they normally should.

No it means that he should be able to put a single bullet within a meter of the target once per second.

Know your definitions. In this case, effective fire where the effect in question is suppression.

LithiumFox wrote:Actually, for every insurgent a squad kills they can go through 2 tons of ammo.

=/ Which is why deviation makes sense actually.

No, that's becouse irl the soldiers are scared and don't rush the enemys. You hit things much more easely irl than in PR. Deviation have never done any sense.

manligheten wrote:No, that's becouse irl the soldiers are scared and don't rush the enemys. You hit things much more easely irl than in PR. Deviation have never done any sense.

No, its because in real life suppressive fire and fire superiority is back bone of all engagements and is MUCH more effective (and used more) than in game.

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:Though the DMR could do with a slightly shorter settle time.

Agreed, say 1.5 seconds instead of 2? I think that would give them a bit more balance against the AR.

In my opinion the deviation in deployed mode after 1 second settle time should be the same as in undeployed mode, but should reduce even further within the next second. Dunno if it can be done with the engine, but why should a deployed bi pod weapon have a great settle time between shot than an undeployed one?
Movement Settle Time and Prone/Jump Settle Time should stay the same, so you can't use deployed mode in close combat.

I have one big question...

When u stand up with the saw, undeployed you are unaccurate as hell!!

But when u deploy it when u stand up u are pinpoint accurate..

U dont have anything where the bipod can rest one so it can give u better accuracy..

That should just work if u where on the ground or if u was in like a window or something else where the bipod can rest on??

Effe wrote:I have one big question...

When u stand up with the saw, undeployed you are unaccurate as hell!!

But when u deploy it when u stand up u are pinpoint accurate..

U dont have anything where the bipod can rest one so it can give u better accuracy..

That should just work if u where on the ground or if u was in like a window or something else where the bipod can rest on??

Thats there because there is no way in the BF2 engine to make you be able to rest the gun on a ingame object.Have no complaints about that tbh as its the only way.

A wile ago you could only deploy wile prone but that was pretty lame tbh I also dont think SAW kits had scopes than either.

The LMGs are overpowered in the 'weapon tree' as it were, before the inevitable backlash from the SAW lovers let me explain:-

- Deviation, Rate of Fire (ROF) and CQB.

Basically the LMG hammers people in CQB. The assault rifle is often limited to a couple of 3 round bursts once a CQB encounter starts with an LMG carrying opponent. This hampers the assault rifle carrying player as deviation is exaggerated for them and there are fewer rounds going out, worse still if you are, god forbid, trying to aim. However if you are able to unload 30 to 50 rounds in a few seconds then deviation is your friend, it allows you to paint the whole area with lead and have a massive cone of fire, all of it effectively saturated. You want realism, try humping up 4 flights of stairs with a PKM and a full combat load of ammo, doubt you'd be ramboing anyone if you made it all the way up.

Now deviation is there to simulate many things, fatigue, movement etc. It does restrict the rifleman carrying the comparatively mobile assault rifle. However, it has little negative impact on the LMG carrying player, despite the fact that he is carrying a much heavier weapon with, potentially, a 200 round box of ammo. This is clearly wrong.

- The LMG also is extremely effective at long range, disproportionately so. Who hasn't heard of the SAW autosniper. Who hasn't tapped fire a couple of times to pull off a first or second headshot on a sniper or marksman who clearly has the drop on you.

- Therefore the LMG is effectively dominant in several arenas, short, medium and long range. This is wrong, unrealistic and more to the point it unbalances gameplay.

- The playerbase is always a good measure of a weapons status, not in what they say so much but in their behaviour. Watch the server, see what kits people pick up, AK74SU, shotguns and LMG's etc. If a weapon has a general advantage over others then players will find out, they will find out quick and they will use it to get kills. This is a rule of the interwebs. I have seen whole squads of players carrying LMG's, six players including the SL, how ridiculous is that.

- The scope actually prevents the use of the weapon in a suppression mode as it is just too easy to get the kills with it.

- The availability of them on some maps, due to kits staying around for 5 minutes means some rounds are near enough ruined by half a team picking them up.

It is used as an auto sniper and a room clearing broom.

To give you an idea how unbalancing the LMG is I'll give you an example. Not long ago on Muttrah I picked up a saw. I got up on a roof and in less than half an hour I had approx 30 kills, just in that part of the game. If someone got on a roof nearby to take me out I simply crouched behind the wall, counted off my deviation, popped up and headshot them in the first two rounds at 200-400 metres. I carried on for a bit cutting down squads as they tried to cross roads, pogo autosniping people who clearly had the drop on me. Bear in mind I do not use the kit, there are people I know, excellent players, that use it every round they can, I do not look forward to playing against them lol.

I then put the kit down in disgust and picked up my regular rifle.

It's not good for gameplay balance, it's cherry picked realism (largely due to game engine restrictions) and it is having a negative impact on the infantry element of the game for a lot of experienced PR players I know. So much so that there playing time has dropped considerably. These are people that LOVE PR and have played for 3-5 years, they are simply not bothering to play as much.

My two cents.

I agree with Wickens as well as others who have said the lmgs are overpowered in combat situations. Whether it be long distance or CQB, the sheer weight of suppression and accuracy make them incredibly hard to take down unless ambushed or attacked by more than one enemy. As Wickens said this makes them a good choice for players who can then rack up the kills.

I think the suppression is actually more or less spot on, the number of bullets lmgs put down forces you to find cover which is a positive for the weapon, but the scopes have started to give them an edge at long range accuracy, particularly if it has been deployed for some time, and the possibility to simply charge enemies in close quarters, combined with suppression as well as number of bullets fired makes them incredibly hard to stop.

Its not so much the deviation per shot in my opinion which is the problem as it seems highly unlikely that after concentrating down ironsights the bullets fired instead go off at random angles. Hence i feel it is the scope that has given them this advantage.

I found myself recently in a situation as a DMR trying to shoot snipers off the mountains on muttrah on a rooftop close to the docks, but i was surprised to find lmg gunners rather than snipers poised on the mountains. I was spotted after several minutes and completely pinned down by accurate MG3 fire and suffered an injury that would ultimately lead to my death. Now personally as SAW stands for Squad Automatic Weapon, i would think it should be deployed for covering fire on streetcorners, rooftops or dug in positions for the squad rather than alone on mountaintops, but with the scope it can be deployed on distant overwatch positions and just tag people off the map.

I dont have a solution to the problem to offer as i believe it is the scope that makes it so "overpowered" yet i dont want to see the scope go as it is such a welcome addition to the weapons. I think again a lot of the issue caused by the LMG boils down to the limits of the BF2 engine.

Are you guys trying to make the SAW less accurate for balance issues? Because SAWS are killing machines in real life. 2 per section and they are what needs to firing at all costs in a firefight, if need be practically the rest of the section supports them, carries extra ammo boxes and even extra barrels.

I can tell you from my own experience firing a C9, that anything and everything within a few foot radius of a silhoutte target at 400m would be destroyed with 2 quick "son-of-a-*****" bursts.

Maybe at some higher range they can have more deviation, but that would have to be 600 or 800m+ imho. As well it would be nice to get some FN Mag or M240 roles...Canada, USA, Israel and UK all use it, and according to wiki in Canada 2 C6 (M240's) are given per platoon So we could have 2 of those per team. Those are accurate up to 1100m when mounted if I remember my SQ correctly...