Project Reality Forums

Truism wrote:Wow. Are you joking?

You fill a chopper with pilots who parachute onto the fob. The chopper isn't really wasted. It undertakes less risk than most missions with choppers in PR.

Pilots can't sit in choppers in anything but the pilot seat (or co-pilot if its an attack chopper or two seater fighter etc, basically they can't sit in the passenger ones) otherwise they get killed after a short period of time of sitting in them.

And wait until you play 1.0 instead of judging single changes...

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:Pilots can't sit in choppers in anything but the pilot seat (or co-pilot if its an attack chopper or two seater fighter etc, basically they can't sit in the passenger ones) otherwise they get killed after a short period of time of sitting in them.

RIP Pilot paradrops. I always meant to do it again some day. And now I know that I couldn't have anyway.

CrazyHotMilf wrote:listen , i know you like making me look like a fool , but this is not WW2 when pilot hijack from his plane , today pilots use Ejection seats which can have on it the Mp5 and its mags , so if speaking about realisem , consider this .

What did I say in the bit you quoted?

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:If your going to say something is realistic or not realistic, back it up with a source otherwise your going to start receiving infarctions from the moderators.

I also did mention the part about ejecting out of a jet...

You also may not be aware that when someone ejects from a plane, the seat doesn't stay with them on the way down, the seat falls away after its ran out of fuel, as you can clearly see in this video when it splashes down into the water. Now I may be wrong here but I don't believe that the pilot then goes looking for his ejector seat after ejecting to find his MP5 with mags.


And I'll stop making you look like a fool once you start doing some research on things and back up what you say with sources

CrazyHotMilf wrote:listen , i know you like making me look like a fool , but this is not WW2 when pilot hijack from his plane , today pilots use Ejection seats which can have on it the Mp5 and its mags , so if speaking about realisem , consider this .

I honestly doubt that any fighter pilot would carry anything else than a survival knife and a 9mm pistol with couple of mags. There is simply no room for a carbine or a smg in that fighter. Its not like a chopper who carry 2 pilots, door gunners, crew engineer etc... wich allow more space And as Rhino already mention, there is no point of having anything in the ejection seat.

if were talking survival why not replace the field dressing with a pack of Hotdogs O_o

This is a 3 part serie made my Nutnfancy a retired Kc-135 pilot, the serie is called "Behind Enemy Lines: Combat Egress System" he give lots of great details about the stuff that he was carrying when he was flying over kosovo during the war, what kind a survival kits fighter and chopper pilots where carrying its a great source of informtation for this tread.

A rifle will be not realistic for a jet pilot but for a chopper pilot it will be perfect but you should remove the parachute for chopper pilot and give them 3 patch and a rifle like kiowas pilot in real life.

How on earth can everyone compare E&E in real life to PR? Seriously, the knife is a tool, not a weapon. If you want to kill someone quickly you'd be better off using your helmet and knocking them out. When they make those knives, what do you think they design them for? Killing people, or cutting rigging? I personally would prioritise the rigging..

Even if you have a knife designed solely to kill, would you really use that over a pistol or a nice heavy[ish helmet]? Supposing you've sneaked up on a sentry (like all shot down pilots do in RL).. Would you smack him over the head, get him in a full nelson and choke him out, or use a knife to try and kill him silently?

Can we have helmets as a weapon? That's my suggestion. It's more realistic than the knife in a PR scenario.

The fact that the PR scenario is downright ridiculous compared to reality obviously does not occur or matter to the 'realism' people, who need a knife for silent kills.

If the knife isn't for silent kills, can we include into PR the parachute catching on trees and buildings, as well as having to light fires with those magnesium sticks? We could also use the survival knife to do basic maintenance on tattered clothing. THAT's realism.

Someone name a single pilot that used a survival knife to kill (and didn't surrender like they all did in a typical 'PR scenario', that of landing in enemy lines).

My sources are the harrier pilot that was shot down in Bosnia, the Argentinian pilot that ejected over the Paras in the Falklands from his Pucara, John Nicols, the entire Bravo Two Zero team that chose to surrender rather than certain death, etc.

Looking forward to someone actually justifying a knife as an offensive weapon for a shot down pilot landing next to the enemy who just shot him down and are in full battle kit.

Find a source for the inclusion of knives as offensive weapons for pilots.

This is a game. Surrendering here will do nothing else than get you shot in the face instantly.

Mikemonster wrote:Find a source for the inclusion of knives as offensive weapons for pilots.

I'm sure there isn't one but a knife can also be used as a defensive weapon, if for example a patrol was all around you, each man spread out, one came very close to the pilot, about to find you and you can't use your pistol from alerting everyone but you do have the chance to slit his throat silently, I believe a pilot would take it rather than being captured by an enemy.

But of course, this is all hypothetical. I haven't read much about downed pilots to know if this or similar has ever happened or not but a kitchen knife, designed to chop onions etc can be used as a weapon, why not a survival knife that's designed to cut up wood, gut animals etc?

I know it's a game, that's why I'm content with not having milsim levels of proper kit (that can't work as it does in real life anyway). I was simply pointing out the self-defeating argument of most 'realism' inclusions.

Mikemonster wrote:Find a source for the inclusion of knives as offensive weapons for pilots.

'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino;1853071']I'm sure there isn't one but a knife can also be used as a defensive weapon, if for example a patrol was all around you.. [cont]

Rhino, I understand what you mean but seriously, I don't see that happening. We don't live in the film predator. And there's no such thing as a defensive weapon. You can use it to defend yourself, but you're using it offensively.

Knives are very good at injuring people badly with, and very bad at stopping people instantly with.

Take real life and imagine your [best case, and irrelevant to PR because of Medics and the ability of SM's to talk over mumble even when dead] scenario. You manage to get behind the enemy patroller and slit his neck (he's wearing body armour so you can't try for a difficult and low percentage success 'heart stab past the ribs'). Instead of falling silently to the floor like in a John Wayne movie you'd find that he makes horrible gasping, snorting and sucking noises from his new mouth - for about 90 seconds (if you even cut the right bit of the neck). I'd bet he'd kick and struggle like a mule as well. Whilst probably trying to bite your fingers off that are covering his first (now redundant) mouth hole.

I realise there is no way to simulate this in PR, no way to simulate the 'SF takedowns' but I wanted to point out to the un-objective commenters that life doesn't work like a John Wayne movie - This is why all of those Real Life pilots surrendered, despite expecting to get shot and/or tortured.

I agree that helo pilots should be given a carbine though, ironically. But that's a weapon they are proven to keep in the helo (even if just to fire from the window with), and it's actually a combat weapon (not designed to free the user from a parachute caught on a tree branch).

If people actually bother to look into the world of killing with a knife, in times of war, they will find a lot of spurious experts and 'fan fiction'. I would be fascinated to hear of even a single verifiable instance of a knife being used by a pilot during E&E (or even by a SF soldier to be honest).

I did make a suggestion regarding knives a couple of years ago, saying they should kill but only do 10%/20% damage per stab but with no 'headshot' bonus (and have a much larger spread so the knifer doesn't need pinpoint accuracy like at the moment). It was disallowed because 'otherwise how will we kill silently' and 'knives kill people, DUH'.

By all means people are welcome to go on theync.com or even LiveLeak (formerly Ogrish) to see just how ineffective knives are at killing instantly. SF guys may well use them (they probably don't as much as people believe), but they train extensively, are 'offensive minded', and are the pinnacle of physical conditioning when they enter the theatre of war.

My God..TS offered to add the knife to the pilot kit, and you 've just started to discuss the MP-5s, carabines, and CoD..What's the point?

According to the topic, I agree with that opinion.

godfather_596 wrote:I think a knife would be nice for pilots. He doesn't have to use it but why not let it be there, you never know. Also according to the previous posts pilots do carry a knife for survival purposes and cutting their parachutes etc. so I really don't find it a bad idea.

IMO it won't affect to gameplay badly, but it provides some "goods" to survived pilots on the battlefield.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:I'm sure there isn't one but a knife can also be used as a defensive weapon, if for example a patrol was all around you, each man spread out, one came very close to the pilot, about to find you and you can't use your pistol from alerting everyone but you do have the chance to slit his throat silently, I believe a pilot would take it rather than being captured by an enemy.

P.S.Absolutely agree with that opinion.

[R-DEV]Rhino wrote:I'm sure there isn't one but a knife can also be used as a defensive weapon, if for example a patrol was all around Rambo each man spread out, one came very close to Rambo, about to find Rambo and Rambo can't use his pistol without alerting everyone but Rambo haves the chance to slit his throat silently, I believe Rambo would take it rather than being captured by an enemy.

Fixed it for you.

Seriously for all you l33t knife guys, why not let the pilot have the 'knife' capability replaced with an animation/slot that has him using the pistol hand-grip as a hammer? Or give him a rock like the collaborators have.. But there's a can of worms to compare like-for-like with if, as indended by most, we want 'realism'..

It would allow the pilot to kill an enemy sniper silently, but it would also have a slight realism aspect to it.

Make it so you have to hit them twice in the head or something, to 'KO' them.

(Knives should already not be 1-shot kill, even in the head, but i've argued this in the appropriate thread years ago).

That's my final offer!


PS. It's funny how we have deviation to simulate physical and mental stress, but it's 'realistic' to have fine-motor ninja skills with a blade under the same conditions!

Mikemonster wrote:Seriously for all you l33t knife guys, why not let the pilot have the 'knife' capability replaced with an animation/slot that has him using the pistol hand-grip as a hammer? Or give him a rock like the collaborators have.. But there's a can of worms to compare like-for-like with if, as indended by most, we want 'realism'..

It would allow the pilot to kill an enemy sniper silently, but it would also have a slight realism aspect to it.

Make it so you have to hit them twice in the head or something, to 'KO' them.

(Knives should already not be 1-shot kill, even in the head, but i've argued this in the appropriate thread years ago).

That's my final offer!


PS. It's funny how we have deviation to simulate physical and mental stress, but it's 'realistic' to have fine-motor ninja skills with a blade under the same conditions!

Also, I thought of something also that isn't good for knifes.

In real-life, If an enemy comes and finds you have a knife in your jacket, they can use it against you and kill you with your own knife, making it seem like a suicide.

That's true.

Mind you on the plus side, in real life you can use a knife for field surgery.

We must weigh up the pros and cons as they are likely to present themselves for re-enaction in PR.

I think that a lot of the pilots on the run in France in summer 1944 used knifes for cutting cheese and apples with. But I don't thing PR simulates orchards unfortunately. Nor brie.

Perhaps only modern pilots should have knives (not those on the Normandy maps).

Mikemonster wrote:That's true.

Mind you on the plus side, in real life you can use a knife for field surgery.

We must weigh up the pros and cons as they are likely to present themselves for re-enaction in PR.

I think that a lot of the pilots on the run in France in summer 1944 used knifes for cutting cheese and apples with. But I don't thing PR simulates orchards unfortunately. Nor brie.

Perhaps only modern pilots should have knives (not those on the Normandy maps).

PR doesn't simulate Brie!? What have I been eating all this time?

But seriously, the issue of downed pilots in PR vs real life is sort of an elephant in the room because the non-realism is far wider reaching than just knives. In real life, people are normally shot down hundreds of kilometers from the FEBA and not even in active combat zones. Their only goal in these scenarios is survival and escape. If a pilot went down into the middle of an active combat zone, more along the lines of what happened in Somalia, you would see them fighting, as we did in those scenarios, more along the lines of what you see armoured vehicle crews do when they bail out.

As for knives being used for killing stuff, there are a metric shitload of examples of SF doing it over the years. That's where the stereotype comes from. Sure it's not their preferred method, all things considered, but it's happened a whole lot. And no, not in E&E scenarios for the most part, because for the most part in E&E people are trying to E&E and you don't really see people trying to kill the people searching for them while Eing and Eing because hiding is a much better method of evading capture than killing people.

AIRCRAFT in PR2 are the elephant in the room to anyone that has ever played an actual sim. Let alone all of the 'reality' that people want to add to them!

Durant didn't fight to the death in Somalia, and the Pucara pilot shot down over British troops in the Falklands (after attempting to napalm them allegedly) didn't pull out his knife and go loco. He surrendered. John Nichol (shot down on his first raid of the 1991 Gulf War) was captured by troops from the airbase he's just bombed. He didn't pull a 6 inch bowie and do a sand-spider routine. Surprisingly his pilot didn't either (John Peters). They both surrendered. Ron Young and David Williams, shot down from their Apache in Iraq 2003 both surrendered. All of these people found themselves amongst seriously pissed off troops.

(Scott O'Grady was allegedly only feet away from his would be capturers but stayed still and they missed him. What would people in PR do in this situation do if given a knife? I know.. They'd go WOWOMGLOL and jump out hoping for a 'kill'. Who wouldn't?).

The only real life option is to surrender, accept the consequences, and hope for mercy (usually given, in a manner).

You can't simulate surrendering in PR, but adding a knife to allow ninja-kills/fight to the death doesn't represent reality either.

I'd be interested to see some sources here, as I have given. Even just for the SF knife kills.


Edit:

You can try to represent reality in spirit and that would be a downed pilot trying to avoid the enemy as much as possible and relink with friendly troops (or a heli extraction). If he's cornered, he just accepts death and pretends the 2 lost tickets represent him getting captured.

Or you can simulate the wildly unlikely yet theoretically possible chance of a pilot stabbing someone to death. For the reasons I mentioned above a knife is not as practical as almost any other improvised weapons for the 'instant, silent kill' people seem to think is realistic.

Whichever argument you choose (representing a real pilot's actions, or allowing 'technically possible' situations), a knife is not suitable to be included on the pilot's 'weapons' list.

If people want to provide sources for a pilot using a weapon to kill enemy troops (especially a knife) then I'd be welcome to change my opinion.

Tarranauha200 wrote:Fixed it for you.

this is a game, that has happened and will happen again, for great entertainment!