Project Reality Forums

SIDEKILL3R wrote:Im retiring from PR its time for the new Gen of gamers/modders (late 90's early 2000's gamers) to make this game what it is now i will come back for few rounds of 1.4 tho

all i have is good memories of this game with over thousands of hours into this mod.




P.S when you see me on your team playing RESPECK IT

lul wut?

Sidekill3r get of your high horse, nobody has to care if you play on their team so why make an extra note about people having to respect you? And good memories can still be made, get a good group of friends online and play some rounds, other people shouldn't inhibit your ability to have fun. Now you're just coming over like a over sentimental guy who thinks everybody should know and respect him.

-1 respect



lol.

I think anyone that took PR that seriously was probably better off playing ArmA.

A good SL is still very important but there's less pressure to micro-manage. The most important thing to do now is to get strategic positioning right and ensure that logistics flow uninterrupted. In competitive things change a lot, but in pubs those are the single biggest factors affecting the game. If you can force the other team into unfavorable engagement terms at the strategic level that's usually sufficient to win even if your team is not as tactically skilled.

Of course, tactical skill still matters, but it's not something an SL can really provide. Engagements are chaotic and while not twitch-shooter quick, they're definitely fast enough that individuals in the squad need to be able to think on their feet and read the situation.

Hunt3r wrote:I think anyone that took PR that seriously was probably better off playing ArmA.

Is the fact that Arma is fucking horse shit PVP not something people take into consideration when going for that argument? If you take PR seriously because comms gives you a boner then yeah, check out Arma. If you take PR seriously because of the intense, consistent and reliable firefights then no, Arma will make you want to kill yourself.

LiamNL wrote:Sidekill3r get of your high horse, nobody has to care if you play on their team so why make an extra note about people having to respect you? And good memories can still be made, get a good group of friends online and play some rounds, other people shouldn't inhibit your ability to have fun. Now you're just coming over like a over sentimental guy who thinks everybody should know and respect him.

hey mannnn i was just kidding around.

Mouthpiece wrote:
So, the questions for you (I hope I'll extract all of the serious ones w/o missing something):

1. When was the last time you saw a squad named "INF DISCIPLINE"? And how you experienced how this kind of squad operates?

2. Has PR in it's post 1.0 releases have become a game that doesn't reward this kind of hardcore SL'ing? By hardcore I mean an SL that directly commands their squad, and there is no time and place for screwing around by chatting about random stuff or switching to another kit w/o asking permission (those are just the tiniest aspects of "hardcore").

3. Has the mod gradually become more and more suited for lower level of tactical play where nowadays it's easier to win by mostly using individual initiative together with mandatory "stick with your squad" (mostly because if you don't, you're chances or being revived are slim), leaving out the important aspect of people following a leader who more or less dictates the pacing, gear, ROE and even positions of individual SM's, not to mention tactics and the grand strategy?

4. How often do you encounter an SL who at the start of the match explains their strategy and tactics instead of just naming the kits he needs and what kind of transport to occupy? (I remember that I used to leave squads who had SL's that didn't even talk about their plan)

5. Has the SL postion has become somewhat obsolete- only to be used as a tool to gather/relay intel and more rarely - try to work with another squad (that usually being CAS, not an INF squad that together could decide the outcome of battle)?

6. Why don't I see the vets coming back to this mod (except the ones who do almost exclusevly are joining a clan)?

7. Has seriousness (e.g., a SL who leads, not just keeps people together) got thrown out of a window just because nowadays it's not mandatory to win a match? Is it just a balance problem (more players = more chance of unbalanced teams?)? Or has the fact that right now we have to deal with 36 more players in a server is making us less serious business/teamwork orientated? (I'm talking especially about SLs as EVERYTHING is in their hands, and as noted: now IMHO a team can win by being more laid back then ever)

8. So maybe SLs in the 'more stacked' team have this mindset that if they try harder (e.g, encouraging more teamwork oriented style of playing), the opposing team won't really have a slightest chance of resisting the 'stacked teams' squads? So maybe it's a good thing in this scenario (for the newbies) afterall?

1. I try to discipline the squad as much as I can. But, when your rest of your team is just crapping around and being idiots, it's hard to stay on track. But the last time I had a real disciplined team over all, was about a week ago. (can't remember the server). It was only one round unfortunately... But, I remember back in 0.95 era there were a LOT more disciplined squads overall.

2.Yes, yes yes. But I don't get how rewarding it could be... the only 'rewarding' that would be towards the squad leader would be the top squad and a victory. I've had players constantly listen to my commands, and I've had players ignore my commands. If they take a kit I don't want them to take, I'll kick them. Simple as that.

3. I agree 100%. This is pathetic and terrible. It's NOT the developers fault really, it's just the players mentality. If the devs could control us players mentally, the game would be like a mil sim round after round lol. But, I do agree. 2 people in a tank can just win the game without communication. As long as they know what they are doing and how to operate the tank.

4.Me being one of them... other than me, I'd say it's rare. You as a squad mate have to ask him what the plan is... a lot of times, the SL is like... "um........". I'd say it's a 1/20 chance to find a squad leader that will explain tactics/ect. (out of 20 squads you'll join, 1 squad leader will explain)

5. I see this as a issue too. However, I'd say the commander position is more obsolete. But I agree. It's hard sometimes being one of the only squad leaders who is trying to help the team get a victory and help guide them to wins. In the end, it seems like I was just speaking to my self the entire time. But there are rounds where there are a few sl with great comms and such.

6. Because of the lack of content release, players that do not want to play tactically... constant asset hoggers. Recently in ARMA 3, I met a former PR player (he played from .5-1.3?) and he said he's not coming back unless they start releasing content a bit more frequently instead of once a year. (aka a long lengthy time). He also said the lack of quality players is refraining him from returning to the game. As well as the lack of maps played. I loved what he said: "Isn't there like 35 maps in PR? Only like 5 are being played.) But anyways, players don't want to do new things. They'd rather have the same old stuff because they are good at it.

7. Yes. All it takes to win a round is get to the second flag for the enemy team and camp it. Boom you will win. Seriousness is a lack of in PR now. Why be serious when you know Mr. Bob is in the Apache and he can take the entire enemy team out? Not many are conservative anymore in PR anyways. They'll just give up and respawn and not wait for medics. The end of rounds (last 50 tickets) are even worse. You could be darn close in teh score board and your team will just keep giving up. But it's hard to enforce the seriousness.

8.Y.E.S. This is a bigger issue. When squads on a team getting rolled over pretty fast, they'll just give up and have that "IDGAF" attitude. They don't care and they will make poor excuses like "it's too hard to beat them!!!". Why would the other stacked team play hard? Well, because it's EASY for them to. Since the other team is a clusterpoop and careless.


I agree 100% with your post, i'm glad someone came out and posted a thread like this.

Why bother caring if you will die if you have 800 tickets to use? I remember back in .95 when it came out (loved that patch so much &#9829 . The teamwork was very good, comparing to now... the teamwork was just unreal and addicting. Now it's all about who gets x kills and has x score. If asset whores get killed: *insert rant/excuse here* on all chat. There is only a few servers where I really enjoy playing on now, since the teamwork is USUALLY decent on those servers.

Yes, this game is about killing, but wasn't this game supposed to be aimed toward a realism aspect? In the asset's part, well hell yes it is pretty realistic considering the limitations of the engine. It's not realistic at all to not communicate the entire round. But on the developers side, they can't do anything about people communicating/teamwork. Other than the "join squad" mechanic.

I'm not shocked at all the player base has receded comparing to a few versions ago. But the one thing that certainly is bringing people back to PR every hour is that it's easy to play. It's not complicated at all. Plus, it runs great. (excluding falujah west). But the population will spike a bit when 1.4 comes, after a week or 2, the population will die down again to normal levels.

This game has a learning curve that is not for the faint of heart. It also has SL features that allow you to assemble your squad as an SL chooses, regarding those who participate.

I see enough of a regular player base that I will kick people from the squad if they are not in the role. On this, I will not reflect what stance the kicked may take on the game after I have kicked them from my squad. I'm busy trying to keep the squad alive.

To end, the game dictates how it is played. If the squadmate(s) don't like this attribute, or the attitude that a good SL takes when in action, they will move along without us pushing, they will lose interest. PR has always been this way and with every advertising campaign, we find a percentage of new and dedicated players after the noob-fog-of-war has settled!

...

Play on, the battlefield will always leave bodies of those not interested in the personal attributes the game creates in some people.

@ matty1053, good to see that I'm not alone (although you're not the only one that agrees). We should like totally play together sometime.

To anyone else - this topic is NOT about how enjoyable the PR can be within a clan, but rather how enjoyable and PR-like is it in regular PUB play. And it's a fact that the level of expectations from the random PUBBER has dropped. And what I mean by that, is that people care less and less about their lives, their actions and consequences.

Please, guys, tell me that I am wrong - that the community hasn't changed, that the Mumble idiot filter wasn't a good thing after all?! I actually wasn't that happy about mumble being integrated in the first place as back then PRTA was always full with people who used mumble - when the server was full, like 95% had Mumble. And the rest got kicked quickly for gamers who can install mumble.

But it's not about mumble. It's about the general PUBbie attitude against their lives and their SL's orders and intentions. The last times I played, 90% of people (approx.) who joined my squad really didn't seem interested in what was happening. I remember that back before 1.0 my squadmembers did a lot of work for me calling out shit and at same time doing great @ radio silence. But the last times I led a squad I felt that they even don't want to aspire. They even don't want to see the beauty that this game is possible to create.

How can we show them the potential that is PR?! Because IMHO there's no other way to change a person than to show them the possibility of such a change and how immense it would be.

@ Wing Walker. This is not the situation (to quote you) "whenever we had influxes of new players people came on here with their pessimistic crying that the world is coming to an end." Quite a time has passed since 1.0, and this thread is about the steady drop of PUB game quality over these years. At least in my experiences.

I briefly glanced over this post by chance a few days back. Thought I should reply.

Some of you might know me by the name Arnoldio (or variations thereof). I have hazed memories of how I actually got into PR, but I do remember being in a BF2 clan, with which we decided to play PoE2 when it was released for BF2. I didn't even know what a mod was or that such a thing is possible. It blew my mind for the time being. Maybe I typed BF2 mods into google or something, maybe it was the Sandbox boom, together with ModBox (Or whatever that mod download program was, which featured all quality made BF2 mods)...

Anyway, it was around 0.3-0.4 I started playing, and I do admit, I was a lonewolf kinda guy. Also english is not my native language and I was about 15 at the time I believe. Clans and units were all the rage back then, so I joined 13thMEU and it fell apart, then I joined some other groups, they fell apart. The time went on and on, mod versions kept coming, I knew changelogs by heart, I swear to DEAD DEAD. Starting off with a couple rounds as a lone marskman, I quickly found my place as an AR gunner and stuck with that role for a damn long time, before moving on to being a SL.

That time, when I was a "freelancer" and making my way into the SL-ing world the "milsim" clan rage was dying and I have been in [OD-S] and ]CIA[, but mainly in [PRTA] over the years from that point on. Was about 0.7 era and onward. Stopped playing due to lack of interest in diminishing tactical gameplay and real life issues, goals and changes some time after 0.9x versions.

Never really doubted the DEV's decisions for the most part, bitched about the players at every new release past 0.7 and kept playing. I played for 2 days straight once. To think of it, it was a big chunk of my youth. And I didn't play with my friends. No, this was a separate world, I met people in game, we went on military adventures and had a blast (no pun intended). I didn't seek an elite-pro status, or any status at all in the community. I just wanted movie-like but true-to-life-ish action. I got plenty. There was loads of "bad round" in between, but once I got the taste of the good ones and the way I wanted to play, it was driving me nuts when everything went bad. I blamed myself and my squad and my team. Started to ragequit often.

At some point, when PR became a really good mod, Id say 0.8 and onwards, which was sadly past its "prime-time"-kind of fever, I wanted something non-meta, like ArmA, only smoother, only better. The gamey aspect started to really bug me, the spawn, get killed, respawn, get JDAM-ed, respawn, get shot in the face by a tank etc. I couldn't stand it around 0.9 to present day. I moved to UO to play ArmA2 with ACE and ACRE and whatnot and I got that fix I needed. It was just perfect, untill I knew that dumb AI by heart, and PVP games were far and in between. That slowly died together with my interest.

Came back to PR only to find it in a weird state. Looked better than ever, played worse than CoD TDM. What a sad sight it was. Like an once important building, being upkept on the outside, only to be abandoned in disrepair and ruin on the inside. I have a big lump in my throat and some moisture in my eyes as I'm writing all of this. I don't really know what happened. Maybe us - the old guys - were just ran over by life and had to move on. Because we know what was done in the old times and we just cannot find the joy and time to relive it in it's glory.

Thanks to the DEV's for this piece of my life, and thanks to all past and present members of CIA, OD-S and especially PRTA for the friendship and opportunities. There is much too much people I've met, played, talked and laughed with over the years to even remember, let alone mention and thank each and every one of them.

Now, to the questions. Answers in bold.

Mouthpiece wrote:1. When was the last time you saw a squad named "INF DISCIPLINE"? And how you experienced how this kind of squad operates?
- I don't even recall squads with such names. It must have been years.

2. Has PR in it's post 1.0 releases have become a game that doesn't reward this kind of hardcore SL'ing? By hardcore I mean an SL that directly commands their squad, and there is no time and place for screwing around by chatting about random stuff or switching to another kit w/o asking permission (those are just the tiniest aspects of "hardcore").
- I frankly don't know what has changed. It could be slowed down much more, and in some areas it was, but then again, sped up in other areas. That is DEV's decision, and gameplay pace changes were the only ones during the years, that really bugged me. Maybe this is the result they wanted.

3. Has the mod gradually become more and more suited for lower level of tactical play where nowadays it's easier to win by mostly using individual initiative together with mandatory "stick with your squad" (mostly because if you don't, you're chances or being revived are slim), leaving out the important aspect of people following a leader who more or less dictates the pacing, gear, ROE and even positions of individual SM's, not to mention tactics and the grand strategy?
- Again, to be honest, many factors could impact that. I believe it has to do with game pace and similar gameplay of both teams. In the meaning that if both sides don't use milsim tactics and instead use meta-game tactics, "why change it?" It's a 50-50 ratio again.

4. How often do you encounter an SL who at the start of the match explains their strategy and tactics instead of just naming the kits he needs and what kind of transport to occupy? (I remember that I used to leave squads who had SL's that didn't even talk about their plan)
- Huh, last times I played, about 50-50 chance. I always brief my squad, though.

5. Has the SL postion has become somewhat obsolete- only to be used as a tool to gather/relay intel and more rarely - try to work with another squad (that usually being CAS, not an INF squad that together could decide the outcome of battle)?
- Yep, many squads now just run with other kits. See question 3 - "Nobody does it, so why bother."

6. Why don't I see the vets coming back to this mod (except the ones who do almost exclusevly are joining a clan)?
- I simply don't have the will and time. Probably many others share the same problem.

7. Has seriousness (e.g., a SL who leads, not just keeps people together) got thrown out of a window just because nowadays it's not mandatory to win a match? Is it just a balance problem (more players = more chance of unbalanced teams?)? Or has the fact that right now we have to deal with 36 more players in a server is making us less serious business/teamwork orientated? (I'm talking especially about SLs as EVERYTHING is in their hands, and as noted: now IMHO a team can win by being more laid back then ever)
- It never was mandatory to win a match for me. it was the events during the match I was after. And laid back doesn't win a round really. But zerg rush tactics do. Unpunished.

8. So maybe SLs in the 'more stacked' team have this mindset that if they try harder (e.g, encouraging more teamwork oriented style of playing), the opposing team won't really have a slightest chance of resisting the 'stacked teams' squads? So maybe it's a good thing in this scenario (for the newbies) afterall?
- Don't really understand this one.

A great part of this is the nostalgic and sentimental value, if you are asking yourself why were the old times better. But for me, I can separate the nostalgic times (Polynomial C on Basrah) and good times (Epic fights post 3D ironights era to present).

Mouthpiece wrote:-snip-

lol That's what I thought this entire post was about, the decline in quality public matches.


It's been what... going on 2 1/2 years since 1.0 was released? And going on a year since the standalone PR was released?

Now not as many servers are around and fully alive. Except the EU times. Americans have certain times they can enjoy and play PR in the evening/"off work" times, and usually it's 2 servers that are full/near full. Europe servers have more popularity at their evening/offwork times. Which, there are multiple servers that are full/near full.

But what PR REALLY needs is a US server that strictly enforces teamwork. TG did a fine job with that. Comparing to now, the only decent server is HOG in the US evening (But kudos to BASED TW, when they were really popular), and in Europe times, it's PRTA, NEW. (Shoutout to MERK though).

Lack of enforcement for teamwork is an issue. Yes, reporting to admins MIGHT get something done, but that doesn't change much.

Then you got admins that favor others, which for sure drives down teamwork.

This is why a good SQL make a diferences...
Actually the only time I disrespected a good SQL was because my Father was on NetFlix and I was getting 400ping...

But everytime I play w/ a good SQL(which I will define later) I got fun gameplay, and play w/ the Squad, not only that, when I get a bad one, I start changing Squads until I get that good SQL(or go Command or doing something else)... also I play on FCV, as I dont like some policies on HOG... and yes I get really good games there, exception when the hits dont count

As for what is a good SQL, they need to stay simple, have good ideas, and the most important,"use the kick button"...

Wing Walker wrote:Gerfand has just illustrated the problem to all of us here.

He takes no responsibility to backup or help his Squad Leader, nor does he start his own squad to ensure there is a good one. (and by help, I also mean showing a new SL the ropes)

He wants to be spoon fed SEAL Team Six and wants everyone else on the server to be Deltas.

We really just need less crying on the forums, and more people stepping up to practice what they are preaching.

Not really, of course a good SQL can make you game fun, even if you lose, but there a big difference btw a excellent SQL and someone that is there just because he doesn't want to get kicked while sniping


think that this bar is the experience of a SQL (wasn't the best, but...)
the red is the guy that don't have Idea of how to SQL, and he may even not want to do that, while the Blue is a good SQL, and more to the right is the perfect one...
If you face one guy that is in the red, and is not even trying, you will get off his squad and search for another one, while one guy in the yellow, and is trying, you will stick to his Squad...

@Heavy Death, oh, hey Antonio, didn't know that you existed on the forums (wait... I thought you existed, but was banned; or was it a temp one and you changed your nick afterwards? Or a second account? Because I clearly remember a user named Antonio in these forums)!

It's so strange that my golden days (0.91-1.0) were your days of starting to get less and less enjoyment of this mod. Based on this thought, I'd say that you're correct on your account about this being a nostalgia based phenomena. And it is as I vividly remember my first "scared shitless" games in such dark and forested maps as Kozelsk, Iron Ridge and, oh god, Fools Road - I had NO clue about what was really happening (though I was not a youngster by typical standards) and din't do anything teamwork wise, but man it was such a fucking boner when I accidentally picked up a dead militia snipers kit on Fools Road (enfield, was it?) and was amazed how fucking cool I am because now I have a scope (unfortunately for me my first rounds in PR was as an insurgent or as a no-scope faction member). Of course, I didn't do anything with my newfound love, but it was helluva time.

So yes, by following this, we can say that also my experiences as a squad leader are based on nostalgia. But the sad thing is that the part in my experiences about how different in "my golden days" were the default PUB players attitude towards participating in a squad. Yes, participating not just "being in a". First and foremost, I really miss the interested players always asking for kit permissions and asking me about the role of our squad or the current plan. Second, I really miss the helping hand from other squaddies in a sense that after 1.0 there were rarer and rarer occassions where people who joined my squad would be the ones to remind the squad such basic things as "you're too bunched up, one nade would kill you all" and "please, keep up with your squad/squad leader" - I felt like a somewhat more needed person then just the guy that keeps telling others what to do. Yes, these situations were a lot common where you as a SL can concentrate on comms/working with another SL while your squadmates take care of such basic things as all around cover (the need of it is based on where they're stopped of course), checking the map and keeping everyone in the squad updated with enemy positions that are relevant.

It's just that lately I've been feeling the more and more that me and my squad for some reason go on a total "trial and error" rampage ("we died? that's ok, now we can all respawn in X" - meeeeh) and "this position is a chore rather a fun position to be in (about the SLs position)".

But it's just maybe me and my creeping nostalgia seizures

Wing Walker wrote:It all boils down too some PR players think they are gamer'elites, until they have to deal with a new player, then they break down, and it ruins their whole world.

I don't really think the same about this subject. IMHO PR is a lot deeper to be boiled down so quickly and drastically to just an aspect about how the community treats new players.

I guess it's the same with you as it's with me - for the past 4-5 years I've been browsing these forums and noticing, as you said, these kind of threads popping up now and then. I've been very aware of them and actually my thoughts about those posts mostly corresponded with your thoughts expressed in your posts in this thread - that it's like fucking global warming which just happens in x years over and over again.

Yes, you're absolutely right about that one point - the fact that these threads keep on popping up from time to time.

But I can't remember a thread that specifically addressed the potential problem (the problem this thread is actually about): the fact that nowadays we're probably getting the "a bit different kind of new player" then back in the days when there was a lot more hassle involved in making that this mod runs and you don't get kicked from the server in the first minutes by not being in mumble.
And it may be a coincidence that my "golden days of playing PR" were back then, and I know a lot of it has to do with nostalgia, but as a player who almost always tries to SL just because he is more full of himself then the player next to him to think and that he understands how to play this mod a bit better (of course, it's all subjective) I have been in close contact with squad members and their attitudes.
Of course It may be (almost only) my experience that new players are less inclined to learn now more then ever.

I guess that if you know that there have been many threads like this, you've also noticed that there have been countless attempts at coaching new players. But most of them didn't yield the results I expected (of course, my expectations may be fucked up, but I thought that a crash course in this game is the least one can go through before diving in the battles).

Mouthpiece wrote:Antonio

More like Arnoldio.

Haha, I'm so fucking wrong that I won't even edit the posts. May my mistake in mistaking 2 different persons because of a bit similar sounding names shine upon thy path! Sorry, Antonio. Anyway, not that I've thought about it - maybe it has been like this from the beginning, and when I've played with Antonio, I thought I've also played with Arnoldio and vica versa. Only Antonio knows the right answer, as there's still the possibility that I haven't played with him at all.

***

Guys, I can't keep in my frustration even longer. Why? Come to think of it - why did I write this post in the first place (knowing that mostly others will remind me that there were many like this before mine)?. I'm gonna come clean.

I actually got totally triggered by a PR gameplay video from a match in the Karez Offensive "War of the Factions" mode. This is the vid (though first I'd like to note that people seen in the vid shouldn't take any offense nor think of me as your enemy - I'm not showing this vid for shaming reasons, I'm just trying to be sincere with myself and others by being truthful about my influences: [TRIGGER WARNING] Oh, and the "action" or the lack of squad based coordination starts at 3:30 and it doesn't end that fast, though I haven't watched more after 16th minute.

[/TRIGGER WARNING]

I always thought of this mode as a atypical community event with quite a bit more teamwork involved (mostly because I've participated in one myself, and it was quite a good experience) and because commanders basically make their teams and guide them in the "correct way" of using the commanders reserved assets (To all of you who doesn't know the basics of this gamemode: It's like C'nC' w/o the FOB destruction part, but instead there are regular points, and the most interesting aspect is that each commander can request what assets his team will be using).

I must say - I haven't watched this video to its end, and maybe those guys that are portrayed in it are just having really bad luck, but, maaan, it's still so hard to watch knowing that they could have chaned A LOT by doing a little (spreading out and covering the approaches/scanning all approaches), and this is where I realized that none of the players in that squad cared much about what should be their next move - instead they just went full Mr. Meatshield Bulletsponge after their so called defensive perimeter (oh, so milsim <3) was breached.

And, yeah, guys, I also have forgotten to mention the milsim argument I've been reading about. I never advocated milsim. I just said that I like disciplined sheep who are interested in the greater good. It's not about milsim even if the military are usually serious about their business too.

PR is not serious business, it's a video game. There are plenty who play it with a serious attitude and end up having a negative effect because of their try-harding.

You can play the game well and teamwork without going full serious-mode. If people took a breather every once in a while and realized teamwork is created through everyone having a basic skill set and knowing a fair bit about the game it'd be a lot better.

Instead everyone blasts about the importance of talking as much as possible in your squad mumble and clogging up comms, effectively making communication the only thing they concentrate on instead of staying alive&killing enemies.

What is common irl and in the game though, is that comms are supposed to be minimal, which somehow has turned into an unpopular opinion in this game.

It's all about socializing and thinking teamwork comes from the excess of comms now.

When in reality you can find out the answers to most of these questions you ask from others, by yourself, by listening, looking at the map and so on. Knowing as much as possible by yourself without distracting others and everyone thinking for themselves while still working toward the same goal is real teamwork. Not asking questions at every turn, that's just bad for business.