[R-COM]cyberzomby wrote:This was especially true yesterday on Kashan XD! But its always the case on Kashan. I do love that you almost always go CO! I should do it as well.
But yea, this is an issue as well. You usually got 2/3 infantry squads and 2/3 assets squads that many times, seem to have a mind of there own. So a SL kick button could help here I'd say.
EDIT: Ofcourse this can and will be abused... So what to do
Everything gets abused in one way another by a minority, but since we all claim to be mature individuals (if you need evidence, we all stoppedplaying vBF2 didn't we? " there seems no point in denying us a more robust and flexible commander system if in the right hands it can better gameplay.
Also, what about making the commander able to fire off-map artillery and mortars manually, like a in a vehicle with different weapons, the vehicle being the command post, and only able to fire from the command post.
Make Squad leaders have to call it in (Grid references, Lazing, what have you)
The Commander will drop em depending on the asset and ammunition available, and from the command post.
There's your incentive right there.
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However this comes with a caveat, like most things in PR that can be abused: This will attract more players to the command role, but perhaps not the type of player that we would want to command our team. However, this would completely help the role, in terms of recruiting more commanders.
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- I like the mobile command units; special apcs, or at least special Humvees for the commander only. Perhaps with special armor or something to make that person a nice bullseye.
- I like the firebase command Idea; this would allow recruitment of more commanders.
- An Addendum: Let Squad leaders enter a type of commander view to place markers and to request asset reinforcement and what not
- I love the Demoting Idea; I have had so many squad leaders not talk to me at all, and when I'm commanding that really pisses me off, especially when they type in global chat that I suck.
- Restricting assets like tanks and planes and kits would be absolutely awesome; this would definitely improve gameplay, especially when some jackass decides he doesnt want to follow server rules or command instructions. Commanders click a button, and he cant use anything. This would absolutely increase the amount of team players.
- I love the idea of having a set amount of area attack ammunition; this idea can relieve draconian restrictions and deploy newer, more mind oriented restrictions (When where how what and why should I place this area attack).
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All of these ideas, in my opinion, would absolutely increase the amount of active, teamwork oriented, and "long haul" commanders that we all look for in a game.
It may be I have too much of a vBF2 mindset so that I'm not seeing the bigger, better idea of what PR *could* become... but I really don't see how giving commanders "punishment" powers similar to server admins really helps the situation.
I believe the commander's authority, (In PR) should come not from the fact that he has a bunch of buttons that allow him to kick/limit squad leaders, but from the fact that he is a good commander and does his job right! Almost all good squad leaders appreciate the presence of a good commander and are more than willing to follow "orders" if they know the commander isn't an idiot. The commanders who command the most authority and respect and who WIN battles in my experience are the ones who coordinate strategy and squads, pass intel between SLs, mark enemy locations, and call in airstrikes without feeling the need to overstep their authority and micromange squad leaders or punish them for insubordination. Squad leaders should ALWAYS have the last say on how they want to pursue the objective because logically they are the ones actually in the field and their judgment will almost always be more solid than a commander back at the base. If things are changed I foresee commanders trying to micromanage, (and getting away with it through kicks or punishes when SLs disobey) saying "Squad 3, go to this move marker now!" and then promptly punishing that squad or worse, kicking the squad leader because the squad leader had a different idea of what would actually win the firefight that his squad is engaged in. It WILL happen. It's the internet, you KNOW it will happen, so why bother giving them the opportunity.
The commanders that are good commanders out there don't need a "kick" function to command respect. They are respected because they do their job, they form solid strategies, they faithfully relay intel to their SLs, they coordinate squads together and most importantly, they let the squad leader determine the "micro" decisions needed to carry out the objective. These are the commanders that people listen to. Because of the nature of PR as a game, I don't think the commander should ever "order" squads around in a public match, (community or clan matches = different story). Instead they should do their job, and say "Squad 3, enemies sighted in D4 kp 3, possible firebase/cache/rally. I suggest you join the combat there, squad 4 is sending an APC to assist you and I have air support ready if you need it". Honestly, as a squad leader, if your commander said that, wouldn't you want to follow his "order", not because you might be punished, but instead because he's a good enough commander to send you to a spot with all the support and assurance you need?
Remember, commanders in PR are NOT there because they have played the longest, understand the game the best, are good leaders, and have dedicated their time to being skilled at the game, (Although as it is now, these are *usually* the people who are drawn to playing the position), but the person in PR is the commander is the person who presses the button first. That said, the commander should never be given too much authority, and any authority he IS given should be overrideable by at the very least the consensus of the majority of the squad leaders to prevent abuse, because otherwise, it WILL be abused, its only a matter of time.
I was kicked for reason: 'LACK OF MATURITY' (Yes, in allcaps) but what I really read is kicked for reason: 'Not putting up with an endless amount of **** and having to take the blame from everybody for individual's failures.'
Dude, I think I saw you get kicked from a server the other day. you were pissing us off with your shouting. We are playing a game, if som1 starts shouting at us for it, its either you shut up or you get kicked. Thats how it is.
Here's a tip. Think of the commander as air traffic control and coms. Hes a coordinator, not a superior officer anymore.
Dr2B Rudd wrote:
Here's a tip. Think of the commander as air traffic control and coms. Hes a coordinator, not a superior officer anymore.
Not to start a flame war, but because of people with a mindset like that, no one plays CO anymore. Because yes, than it is just a Communications officer and a guy who accepts markers. Its not how the DEV's intentioned the CO.
And Stokes, your post is true in a perfect happy world. Read the above and my point stands. If you need some more arguments, go back a page and read the story about the Commander who was commanding nicely (I hope) and 2 squads just did not want to listen to him because they had there own mind set up.
THATS why you NEED a kick/demote tool. To get SL's up who DO listen to you. It doesnt matter if you do a good job or not. In ANY given server, theres always the 2 and most of the times 3 squads that do not listen to you. Does not matter how big of a battle plan you have, that is just how it goes. They have there own mind set up, know a better plan, or just dont feel like working with the CO. To me and you can see (Fuzzhead) to the DEV's, he's not just a communications officer or marker placer. Hes the one who comes up with a battleplan and guide's/orders the squads to do it.
meh, quite a few servers have admins with god complexes.
if you have a commander that is doing a bad job, tell him so, if he is being an *******, report him. but if he isn't doing to bad, either do as he tells you, or tell him why you are not (with a reason better then I DONT WANNA.
a commander has an overview of the whole battle, he can coordinate you and other squads to avoid things like a crucial flag being overrun because nobody is defending it. If he tells you to do something, he usually has a plan that requires you to do something. if you don't his plan might fall apart loosing tickets and flags.
of course, you can always get a totally inept commander, but this is something you have to deal with, thats why they call it project reality.
and btw rudd. that is excatly the wrong attitude, i always have squads that do this when im commanding. they ignore all my orders and go off and do their own thing. this means i have one less squad to work with, since i have to guess what this squad is going to actually do. it means i can't give them proper support from armor or air units. it means that they might not be at a crucial point to cap a flag or ambush the enemy. it means that they might just leave a position i needed defended because they wander off to get kills.
its a team game, so unless you have a really good reason, you do what your commander tells you to. and the fact that you don't like him yelling at you for not doing what he told you, is not a good reason.
squads like that, are a huge part of why people rarely do commander.
Dr2B Rudd wrote:Dude, I think I saw you get kicked from a server the other day. you were pissing us off with your shouting. We are playing a game, if som1 starts shouting at us for it, its either you shut up or you get kicked. Thats how it is.
Atrovenator wrote:To keep this from seeming like a bitchy, kick-or-ban related post I'm not going to mention any names here.
...snipped out most of the wall of text...
just got kicked tonight because I reported a squadleader for failing to follow orders, when I -expressly- told him to Move to his northeast with his two bradleys, IN A TRENCH, KEEPING OFF THE RIDGELINE (in front of US Main on Al Kufrah.) He proceeded to move south and then -along the ridgeline- getting eliminated in the process. At that point I reprimanded him quite soundly. During the period where he began his movement (not along the movemark provided) and died, he provided no intelligence about what took him out. After dying, he didn't give me any further info and proceeded to blame me for sending him in that direction. The reason I gave him the order to -hide- is because I did not know the position of hostile armour or infantry. This is a squadleader who called in firebase, apc and infantry while area attack was up, then when I told him to call it in told me that there were still 14 minutes left on it, then got killed twice telling me he couldn't call it in and then told me that he had 'played probably longer than I ever would' when I asked if he knew how to call in artillery.
I do not understand where Admins get off removing me repeatedly from command over such petty issues.
I know where you were last night right before this post, and I disconnected shortly after you hopped in the commander chair. The server has a policy that the commander does have control over the squads and can report them for not following orders, although SLs have a little latitude in reaction time and don't have to follow illegal or obviously bad orders (such as driving a comm truck into an enemy tank controlled area). I can accurately guess that you were not banned for reporting a squadleader. The ban reason 'LACK OF MATURITY' (Yes, in allcaps) is used for players who spam comms, deride teammates and are generally bringing down the experiences of other players. Most of those notices are sent in all caps, you aren't special. You can post on the server forums in the Contact an Admin forum and the person who banned you will explain the situation and how to avoid it in the future, heck maybe even unban you if you are polite. You may have even been kicked instead of banned.
My 5 minutes of experience on Kufrah with you was informing you that we needed repairs (when I first noted you were in the comm chair) and was before the events you posted about. You then talked constantly about wanting intel on what damaged us and interrupted me while I was telling you that we had been damaged before our retreat to the location were we took the second hit and became tracked. All of which was distracting me from a LAT that was able to hit us while you rambled on.
Then, once the APC was on fire and we said we were destroyed you said repairs were on the way and when I said we no longer needed the repairs you asked again what destroyed us, then went on to explain that obviously we had been in danger (so brilliantly deducted from the fact that we got destroyed). You then reprimanded the whole team and complained about how you did not have any transport and everyone in main couldn't be helped and basically trashed the team. If you made it all the way to the APCs respawning before being kicked for your attitude I'm fairly surprised.
Although this may not go well I wanted to post about it because it is an example of someone trying to command (which I give Atrovenator credit for) but not getting it right because they are approaching it wrong. Yes the commander commands and squads should listen, but chiding them out for every failure (one side has to win after all) and expecting them to behave like RTS drones just because you told them to fall back is delusional. When a SL says they are pinned or that leaving with armor is a bad idea it is because they know what is going on. Give them the order to fall back ASAP but don't expect them to do it immediately.
You claim multiple servers have banned you from comms, well the common thread in multiple bans is the person being banned. Maybe it's you?
How close is the average platoon commander to the front? Do real platoon commanders spend all their time in a command box?
I'm interested in making the Commander role as close to a real-life platoon commander as possible. There has to be some incentive for getting out of the box and seeing at least some of the battle. Options include allowing the Commander to command from firebases and vehicles. Dying as Commander must be penalized, though.
But the problem is... Most people have that "uptight arse" attitude towards commies if they don't accept every single marker and if they actually try to coordinate with squads.
Few nights ago, I had a squad mixed of poles and frenchies. FFS, I've gone fucknuts asking them for sitrep and getting replies like "We're doing our job, you have two more squads", "We will do whatever we want", and so on.
All ends up so I have Cain's, Squaddie's and Iarwood's squad getting hammered. To be precise, I've been powerlessly watching how Iarwood's squad throw themselves at fortified bunkers trying to do my ordes, and 6th squad (frenchies/poles) runs back 200 m behind 5th squad (Iarwood), just because few tracers flew their way.
I don't need squads that will fuck me off on regular basis, and that I can't do the same thing to them, allocating them sticks and rocks.
To get understood - I don't think all poles and frenchies are ********. Au contraire - I find they are good people to have around, but that particular squad screwed me over and over again that night. Just an example. And it wasn't the only time that happened to me.
Commies need those demoting and similar stuff available to them. They aren't communications traffic control.
Please take the off topic comments to private messaging before this thread gets locked, thank you.
gclark: problem with making commander mimick a platoon CO, its not really like that, hes more like a company/battalion CO. he has ALOT more men than just a platoon, all the tickets basically count towards men, and not to mention controlling tanks, jets, helicopters, transport, apcs, artillery etc etc... that is way above the head of a simple platoon CO.
Last edited by fuzzhead on 2009-07-15 15:56, edited 1 time in total.
Hes a coordinator, not a superior officer anymore.
That's the whole problem imo... And sadly too many have the same opinion as you.
If a CO has a good strategy - too bad - most SLs decide for themselves what is best for the team.
And often these self-righteous SLs kill the game with their often stupid ideas of a strategy.
Only some decent SLs can safe such noob-attack rushes when again staying as defence.
I am really sad that always the 'good' and smart SLs have to stay back (saying: the smarter one backs down) and defend because all the noob SLs or wanna-be-SLs want to attack or do something else only. And this does include many clans or communities.
I think only the CO should see the map with all soldiers on it, nobody else.
SLs and soldiers see their squad and that's it.
That would also fit your description as coordinator
Last edited by HunterMed on 2009-07-15 16:53, edited 3 times in total.
Really I don't think we need more artillery type abilities for the commander, the current 30-60 minute delays are still frequent enough to dislodge stuck opponents.
Some abilities I would like to see used:
See the first person view of a SL (timer ability, requested by SL and gives a 30 second view from the position of the SL). I don't know if it could simply see what the SL sees or simply place a viewpoint for the commander at that position for them to look around on their own (similar to Desert Combat's artillery spotting). Could only happen every 15-30 minutes.
UAV - Commander notes two points on the map for a UAV to do a route on. The UAV would launch from above the comm post and climb to a reasonable height then fly directly to each point marked at a slow speed and the commander would have a camera pointed down that they may be able to look around a small arc with (or look directly down). After passing each point it would return to the comm post. This would give limited overhead view and would be limited to every 30 minutes. Intel gathered would be fairly limited in scope since players could easily hide from it on most maps, but would give the commander something to do every 30 minutes other than stare at his mini map.
The ability to hold vehicle and equipment spawns (default would be to allow) so that the commander could control what respawns. Basically they would have a list of each item an and a way to select that item to delay the respawn. I would limit this to assets worth tickets and the specialist pickup kits.
[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:Please take the off topic comments to private messaging before this thread gets locked, thank you.
gclark: problem with making commander mimick a platoon CO, its not really like that, hes more like a company/battalion CO. he has ALOT more men than just a platoon, all the tickets basically count towards men, and not to mention controlling tanks, jets, helicopters, transport, apcs, artillery etc etc... that is way above the head of a simple platoon CO.
That's true, except it really doesn't work that way in-game. The Commander never controls more than 31 men at a time, about the size of a platoon. The difference in PR is that reinforcements (respawns) are instant, whereas those men may not be replaced for weeks or months IRL. Those vehicles that a real platoon CO would never command aren't even as powerful as their real equivalents; even if the platoon CO doesn't directly command them, he calls them in from allied air units anyway, which we can approximate.
The PR commander is always in command of 31 or less players, regardless of tickets. Therefore, the CO is a platoon commander.
The CO should be a platoon commander anyway! Anything higher in the chain of command is practically a desk job. This is a tactical shooter, not a simulator, and we can't pretend to simulate any command position higher than platoon CO without boring the hell out of the players, as we do now.
" there seems no point in denying us a more robust and flexible commander system if in the right hands it can better gameplay.
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RANGERS LEAD THE WAY!!!
Do not post stupid suggestions just because you had a bad round in PR 
