CAS not affecting gameplay.(?)

[Jack_Howitzer]

I am sowwie but the reason that cas is not affecting gameplay is that to the people on the ground its an afterthought. How many pilots did I circle over a map where we achieved air superiority with no jet for 15 min. and not a beep from the ground? And how often are AAA vehicles ignored because they are looking for cas anyway so better shoot the apc?

IF case won out in the sky AND there were people on the ground coordinating with cas, cas impacted the game bigly. I have seen planes get 50 or so kills and more than half of those kills were vehicles .

Also cas already has hitpoints. I imagine irl a single hit from a vulcan means eject 80% of the time.

However I do agree with increased repair time.

I don't know exactly what parallel universe you live in but I haven't seen enemy team playing without AA in last few months. I've also never seen any random CAS crew to get 50 kills or more, especially not after this latest patch. Not even seen experienced CAS squad to get that amount of kills. For some reason in this thread we have incompetent CAS pilots telling CAS is just balanced and fine, yet you've never made any considerable achievements with said asset.

Also that if if if argument about teamwork with CAS is useless, if you would've played this game more than year or two you would know that type of teamwork won't happen. It's challenging enough for clans to find enough competent pilots and spotters to operate 2-4 jets with spotters.

Problem with todays AA missile system is that one MANPAD is pretty much equal to AAV in some of the old patches. Combine this with another available MANPAD, possible couple of FOB AA's, couple of AAVs and you have one hell of a mission to hit anything in the map. Even single MANPAD in the middle of 4 km map can create a no-fly zone of 1.6-2.5 km in diameter. That's some serious area denial from only 1 kit. Previously this wasn't such a threat as the missile physics were completely different so one missile only wasn't a death sentence as it's now. Previously you needed to concentrate AAVs, MANPADs and FOB AAs to same area to create a somewhat effective no-fly zone when friendly CAS was lost, which encouraged teamwork and coordination. Now one single AA weapon can create a killzone size of 1/2 of 4 km map alone.

So why is it fine that CAS needs to require full squad of extremely coordinated people to even get few kills, when AA is allowed to fullfill it's mission with no teamwork, no coordination and with only 1 kit?

[PatrickLA_CA]

So why is it fine that CAS needs to require full squad of extremely coordinated people to even get few kills, when AA is allowed to fullfill it's mission with no teamwork, no coordination and with only 1 kit?

Now this is a very valid argument. Maybe CAS should remain as it is, but in turn, AA should receive a massive overhaul, within the engine limitations of course. It should require at least a 4 man squad to function. I have no ideas yet, but maybe this is the direction that we should focus on?
I don't know how possible it is to implement radars that will enable SAMs to lock on aircraft, but if it is, then there should be a vehicle, or a seat in a vehicle, or even an emplacement that will enable AAVs and deployable AAs to lock on to the enemy aircraft in a certain area. Without it, they wouldn't have the option to lock on the aircraft when it gets in their view range.

[Fuller]

Radar is not possible because it would show ALL units on the map. (remember bf2 commander radar scan?)

[PatrickLA_CA]

That's not exactly what I mean, my suggestion is simply to have another asset that will enable the locking on on enemy aircraft, like a spotter for CAS that lazes targets, and then as long as that asset is active, the SAM asset can lock on that target.

[DogACTUAL]

Most SAMs and AAVs in PR are passively infrared homing systems without any radar.
There is no justification from a technical standpoint for them to have more than one operator to use the weapons. Only ones with radar systems onboard i know of are 2K22, 9k35 and type95, with most of them just only having search radars. The m163 just uses a small radar for range finding.

Better would be to reduce available AA assets per team, only one AA kit/guided missile AAV and only 2 AA emplacements per team for example, since they cover such a big area of the map and jets have no cover.

Or give regular one man jets targeting pods for their laser guided munitions so they can deliver them accurately without spotters.
Wouldn't even be OP considering that AA will get you almost guarenteed if you go below 500-700m altitude.
So spotters would still be preferable over manual delivery since they guarentee a more or less safe standoff distance when bombing, but jets would actually be able to do their job when there are no active spotters (like most rounds), although with more risk of being taken out by AA.

Since you made a point about CAS and realism, I think we first need CAS in more insurgency maps than 2 or 3.

Imagine either F16, helicopter gunship or F18 on bijar ins or bamyan ins, yummy. Would be so epic to have a proper gunship or fighter jet doing CAS against insugents.

[chrisweb89]

The old combined arms minimod had targeting pods for single seat aircraft. It was cool and fun to use but to make it work it used the mouse input, meaning you couldn't have mouse input as your controls since aiming with the pod would also rotate/move the plane. From what I know to do a targeting pod would mean fucking mouse pilots. Or atleast making it unusable for them.

Imagine either F16, helicopter gunship or F18 on bijar ins or bamyan ins, yummy. Would be so epic to have a proper gunship or fighter jet doing CAS against insugents.

What's wrong with the a10?

[LimitJK]

Imagine either F16, helicopter gunship or F18 on bijar ins or bamyan ins, yummy. Would be so epic to have a proper gunship or fighter jet doing CAS against insugents.

now imagine the same thing from the insurgents perspective. ****.

people loose perspective for the different aspects of the game way too fast. CAS already has a considerable impact on gameplay, mainly by killing enemy assets and FOBs. having 50+ kills is not a scale for that, especially not for winged CAS. Plane CAS should not be successful without a spotter.

obviously flares need a rerework. one of the root problems was when the splash damage radius got increased substantially.
it made flaring "unresponsive" as it is hard to escape from.
since then there was a lot of doctoring around but it never really got adressed.
https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f26-pr ... lares.html

also decrease bleed on planes.

[viirusiiseli]

people loose perspective for the different aspects of the game way too fast. CAS already has a considerable impact on gameplay, mainly by killing enemy assets and FOBs.

When's the last time you saw CAS actually attack an enemy FOB or two with AA and get away with it? That's right, never. It doesn't work, you might kill the FOB, you might even think you got away, but then you get hit in the back because the MANPAD guy decided to fire at your flares. The missile just sails all the way to you when you've made it out of range.

I personally haven't seen CAS impact the game in the last 20 patches. The tryhards take jets, kill each other because they like dogfights, then they die on their first ground run where they maybe kill one tank. CAS helis you don't even have to worry about, because they're so ridiculously bad. Some noob will just AA them after getting a kit off a crate most games.

Question to DEVs: Why does handheld AA, a completely lonewolf kit that requires 0 teamwork coordination or skill, have the same range for locking and killing planes as a static AA or AAV?

Previously, at least in 0.9 and earlier patches, MANPAD had lock limitation of 600m, simulating its lack of range compared to other anti air assets IRL.

Why was MANPAD buffed so much that it kills jets to +1.5km ranges at high altitudes? Something pretty much impossible for a real life MANPAD. And why are there two of them per team?

Do I have to make a compilation video getting shot down by redirect AA BVR so you guys realize how bad you've made it or what? I guess it's the only way to make you guys understand as seen by brah bans shotgun nerf whinge, since no DEV actually plays CAS.

[Fastjack]

I cannot understand statements like CAS doesn't affect gameplay anymore because it doesn't reach the 50/1 KD in a game with medics and epipens. Not all bomb drops on infantry cause blackscreen and also not all ppl give up.

Maybe the killscore counter for CAS in scoreborad should be replaced with how many tickets the CAS pilot killed from the enemy team.

What if i CAS everything down that is not occupied by the enemy. I have zero kills but i stole the enemy team 200 tickets by destroying their stuff.

[Heavy Death]

If there is any AA in the are, CAS has nothing to do there... you know, that is kinda the point of AA.

But ofcourse muh k/d.

[Fuller]

@Fastjack
You are not even flying CAS which kind of eplains why you are coming up with such "what if cas bla bla " statments.

@HeavyDeath
Oh yeah really? So every fking TOW on the battlefield should create a "circle of death" for all vehicles with a diameter of 2.4 kilometer. Let's make TOW heatseeking and you just have to lock on your target, after that it is fire and forget and of course you have a 90% one shot one kill probability.
That would be fun wouldn't it?

[Jack_Howitzer]

@Fastjack
You are not even flying CAS which kind of eplains why you are coming up with such "what if cas bla bla " statments.

@HeavyDeath
Oh yeah really? So every fking TOW on the battlefield should create a "circle of death" for all vehicles with a diameter of 2.4 kilometer. Let's make TOW heatseeking and you just have to lock on your target, after that it is fire and forget and of course you have a 90% one shot one kill probability.
That would be fun wouldn't it?

Stop exposing DEV double standards when it comes to balance on CAS vs. armor.

Like to title says, CAS has little to no impact on gameplay as the balance beetween ground AA and CAS was ruined. IDGAF about the kills, but that's one simple way to measure their success. Even ticket wise, CAS won't make much of a difference for reasons already stated in the thread. Right now the only ones defending current system are the ones that never play CAS or ones that were never good at it.

Some noobs might be happy to kill 1 enemy tank, 1 jeep and 4 infantry in one round and call it a good day. With comparable ground asset, eg. tank, that kind of kill count would be classed humiliating.

[Fastjack]

.......

@Fastjack
You are not even flying CAS which kind of eplains why you are coming up with such "what if cas bla bla " statments.

That doesn't mean i never played CAS.

Playing the game for longtime. Also, i see rounds where CAS is good and doing their job. I think those guys know better how to play CAS as the guys who complaining about it

[Fastjack]

Right now the only ones defending current system are the ones that never play CAS or ones that were never good at it.

... or the guys who like to play with 7 other peoples on the ground because they LIKE THIS and not CAS.

I also never said i defend the current system or it's good.

I only said i cannot understand those statements about high KD.

I have also a mindweb for more realistic AA missiles and how CAS survive it with skill and not with luck and i was on the way to suggesting it to the DEV's but .... "sarcasmmode 1" when i read such sh*t i should put this on the bottom on my TODO list and focus more on the tanks and apc's

[viirusiiseli]

i should put this on the bottom on my TODO list and focus more on the tanks and apc's

That doesn't mean i never played CAS.

Playing the game for longtime. Also, i see rounds where CAS is good and doing their job. I think those guys know better how to play CAS as the guys who complaining about it

When did you play CAS? 2007? I've been playing since 2009 and I literally don't know who you are so you weren't ever notably good at it for the last 8 years.

And yes, kills are the easiest measurement of CAS effectiveness, unless you can find 200 empty trucks to drain the enemy tickets with.

And no, not a single CAS crew in the last year of this game has affected the gameplay noticeably, not even jets because they were ruined too with the "realistic" flight physics.

Chances of CAS being the reason for winning the game are slim to none. Armor can and does win games. Despite the fact that CAS should be the most important asset in the sense that if you lose it, you are at a great disadvantage, but if you operate flawlessly with it, you should still be reaching those 30-150 kills a round like you could before.

Because lets face it, CAS wasn't OP. It wasn't every second crew reaching those kills, it was only the absolute best players of the mod. CAS in this mod got entirely nerfed due to maybe 6 players. 2 of those were the only pilots who could reach the scores that led up to the nerfs.

But the culture atm seems to be all Robin Hood democracy skill wise now.

I also think there should only ever be max 2 CAS assets a team IMO, but they should be on more maps. The # of them would also have a positive effect on gameplay, increasing their value.

[Fastjack]

When did you play CAS? 2007? I've been playing since 2009 and I literally don't know who you are so you weren't ever notably good at it for the last 8 years.

Since 2010. Mostly on Coop Veterans-Gaming. AI in AA is more dangerous as a human player on Deployment.
I made a big break from PR (2014 - 2017) because my mom went bad sick.
I'm also a father of 2 daughters and have a fulltime job. I haven't so much time like you to play PR, Maybe that's the reason you never met me before.

I played also on NWA server years ago. I played not every round CAS and rarely jets. I like helicopters more.
I played everything including tanks, APC's but maybe you also dont noticed me in these times when i RULED with the Stryker or shooting with a tank 3 full trans choppers and standing top of the scoreboard. Didn't saw your name there.
I dont know you also from this time and the only thing i hear about you from people (ingame/forum/community) that you are an hacker and cheater.

So, maybe people dont noticed me these times as a valuable CAS pilot but that's better as having a reputation like you.

Seems like this thread is derailed. We should stay on Topic and not talking about my or your or his or her skills.

[Mineral]

I flew trans choppers on muttrah 24/7 between 0.97 and 0.98. So on topic now again then?

[Jack_Howitzer]

Nice to see R-DEVs and R-CONs taking over on the trolling lane on this thread.

Just a tip to prove my point to anyone thinking CAS isn't ruined, do following: try to reach 40 kills with tank and CAS jet. See which assets nets you such amount of kills first. After that, you'll get my point.

[viirusiiseli]

[quote=""'[R-CON"]Fastjack;2177191']Since 2010. Mostly on Coop Veterans-Gaming. AI in AA is more dangerous as a human player on Deployment.[/quote]




co-op is not comparable to playing against humans

[quote="Jack_Howitzer""]Nice to see R-DEVs and R-CONs taking over on the trolling lane on this thread.

Just a tip to prove my point to anyone thinking CAS isn't ruined, do following: try to reach 40 kills with tank and CAS jet. See which assets nets you such amount of kills first. After that, you'll get my point.[/quote]

It would only work if any of the critics of this thread played CAS, or could provide any other reasonable argument for it other than "lmao have you tried not being bad, CAS is fine".

Because that's the level of discussion at the moment.

Plane CAS should not be successful without a spotter.

Also forgot to reply to this, it never was and I don't think anybody has claimed that it should be.

[DogACTUAL]

This is not meant to insult anyone. But by now it is very obvious that pretty much all of the people here that claim (fixed wing) CAS is fine do not fly CAS at all or only flew it a few times in the past, but lecture people on it that actually use it regulary.

How can you even comment so confidently on the state of (fixed wing) CAS, when you don't even use it yourself and therefore didn't experience the AA vs CAS meta yourself? Because of some pilot you saw that did well in your eyes?

Sure, even now sometimes there is no enemy AA because their team is disorganised and for some reason everyone is lasing for CAS, then the CAS can have a pretty successful round.
But that's still not even close to what CAS used to be able to achieve under favourable circumstances as these.
And overall CAS effectiveness should be judged by what a good pilot can achieve under normal circumstances, as in, barely anyone or noone is lasing and the map is full of enemy AA.

Noone reporting enemy armour and map full of enemy AT? Armour can still get a successfull round with these circumstances if the play good. CAS with enemy AA everywhere and no spotters? Not so much.

And yes, kills don't always exactly represent success, but it is overall a very good indicator for it. Look at points instead of kills and it is the same story, CAS almost never gets to the top of the score board anymore like it used to, unlike armour. Now an average CAS round for a good pilot is: You win against the hostile CAS, then you get 2-3 lases the whole round and bomb a FOB and one tank/APC with maybe 5-10 kills after the round is over.

Why? Because you are totally reliant on spotters. Dare to even pierce the view distance barrier and have a look yourself and you got hostile AA missiles coming your way very soon. And no, not only over enemy held objectives, often enough even over friendly held objectives or over areas far away from any objectives.

That's what you get when you have six(!) AA emplacements that can be build per team, two MANPADS and AAVs on the enemy side. They can cover the whole area over all objectives and then some.

Why does so much AA per team even exist in the first place? Because it was necessary in the past when a single AA missile was quite ineffective and barely ever hit an aircraft. Back then saturation was key for effective AA that can repel or destroy hostile aircraft.

Now with recent improvements in missile code and reliability, a single MANPADS can easily take out a jet or helicopter with one shot. Which in my opinion, in of itelf is great!

Before pretty much everyone found themselves shooting at helicopters and jets that didn't even flare, only for them to dodge all the missiles. This was very annoying since it seemed like your AA missiles didn't even matter and CAS that overstepped its bounds and hovered/flew over an AA position without even preflaring, could just pop flares after launch and easily escape the missile. Same with air to air jet fights. So in that regard the new AA code is a big improvement.

But now that we have very effective AA missiles, the AA saturation is choking out the CAS.
The balance that was achieved back then (by having many AA sytems per team to counteract unreliable AA missiles) is thrown way off now. Once the missiles where made more effective, this issue was never addressed.

AA availability has to be reduced! Six AA emplacements and two MANPADS per team is just too much.
Imo, given how effective AA is now, it should be treated like AT. Only one AA kit and only 3 AA emplacements per team, if not 2. Only one AAV per team.