Project Reality Forums

Waaah_Wah wrote:where is the fun in sitting and clicking your left mouse button for 50 times untill you actually manage to hit the guy (and thats by pure luck).

To answer that, I'll use that same question under a parallel circumstance:

Where is the fun in sitting in a bar and hitting on girls 50 times until you actually manage to get one (and that's by pure luck)? There's more to chicks than scoring. In PR, there's more to combat than killing.

After focusing my attention on the deviation while playing today, I will have to agree with the OP.
You're able to headshot an enemy a few hundred meters away with the first shot - that just doesn't feel right to me.

To further add on to Wolfe's post, I'll ask a general question that can apply to every single person here that plays PR.

And my question is:
What is the reason you like to play PR vs vanilla BF2?

Answer 1. To kill as many people as you can for instant gratification and domination. You like seeing a K : D ratio of XX / X on the scoreboard, and you enjoy killing people in one or two shots usually from long range.

Answer 2. For the tactics, strategy, and the thrill of the "hunt." This also includes the team play aspect, team coordination, and combined collective efforts to bring your team to victory. You don't care much for your personal score, or how many kills you achieve.

If you answered #1, then that pretty much sums up what you're looking for in a first person shooter.
If you answered #1, then honestly PR is not really the mod that was designed for that mentality of game play.

0.7 was more about answer #2 then anything.
0.75 is now more about #1 then #2, with increased accuracy to rifles and hardly any weapon deviation, causing firefights to rarely last past 10 seconds.

So in the end, you just have to ask yourself what kind of gamer you are. I myself answered #2.
I enjoy realistic combat, missing someone if I'm not prepared for the shot, and formulating strategies that should always dominate someone's skill with how fast they can go prone, place a cursor over someone's head, and press the left mouse button.

I don't care about my personal score. I don't care about my K : D ratio. I don't care about how fast I can kill someone or how fast I can put my cursor on someone on the drop of a hat.
I don't care about stats, personal gain, or personal fame.

I do care about teamwork. I care about strategy. I care about team effort and coordination. I care about using my squad as an asset and providing my assistance to them...not using them as extra decoys when I'm trying to kill someone.

So when I say the deviation needs to be changed because it isn't realistic...I mean it's not realistic if you want to play as someone who answered #2.
If you answered #1...that's fine.
I'm not saying you're a bad player for wanting to play like that.
I'm not saying you don't have any skill.

What I am saying is that the changes made post 0.75 to accuracy/deviation is in my opinion, going away from what I think Project Reality is designed to be.
I'm also saying that these are my opinions. I am in no way saying that anyone else's opinion of the game or how it should be played is wrong.
I just hope that the developers have an opinion of this mod in the same way I do, and that the direction this mod goes in will continue to follow the guidelines of someone who likes to play as an answer #2 player.

As for specific change suggestions, I think Wolfe pretty much covered all that.

ReaperMAC wrote:Suppression effects right now works because it gives people an incentive to take cover. It makes firefights longer (or should anyways). But the deviation right now allows you to return accurate fire back. (In other terms, make firefights shorter). Also, people can now (again) prone-dive and headshot you within 1-2 seconds.

Now you cant return accurate fire because of the suppression effect. You can return fire, but you wont be able to see wtf your shooting at...

ReaperMAC wrote: I disagree entirely. Firefights were intense and prolonging. It took more than just 3-4 bullets to end a firefight. You had to use tactics to win the day, rather than point and click. It also took away the instant prone-diving headshot issue. I rarely had to sit on a hill and "click" until they died, which I can see would be a problem if you think and play that way.

And you still have to use those tactics now. Look, the 0.7 deviation created more problems than it solved. Squad vs squad firefights still take prelty of time coz of the supression effect, and now you cant go Rambo like you could in 0.6 since your weapon is not accurate in an instant.

Waaah_Wah wrote:Now you cant return accurate fire because of the suppression effect. You can return fire, but you wont be able to see wtf your shooting at...

You still can, especially if you know where they are.

Waaah_Wah wrote:And you still have to use those tactics now. Look, the 0.7 deviation created more problems than it solved. Squad vs squad firefights still take prelty of time coz of the supression effect, and now you cant go Rambo like you could in 0.6 since your weapon is not accurate in an instant.

You can actually go Rambo, the accuracy of the weapons is almost laser accurate, bullets usually are on target after the first or second shot. Reckon you probably won't get as many kills as you did in v.6, but it is still a problem. v.7 portrayed firefights more realistically than v.75 where you can still headshot people at 400m away.

Won't all the tweaking of current calculations, etc. be moot once Jonny and Mosquill finish their pet project and have it implemented?

gclark03 wrote:Won't all the tweaking of current calculations, etc. be moot once Jonny and Mosquill finish their pet project and have it implemented?

Care to elaborate for the uninformed?

Last I heard, Jonny was working through a new ballistics system, which should make firing more realistic; it may or may not touch on deviation, but the new ballistics might balance firefights in ways deviation never could.

Also, I believe Mosquill is both helping Jonny with ballistics and developing new 3D iron sights that might also change the balance of the game where deviation could only frustrate and annoy the player.

gclark03 wrote:Last I heard, Jonny was working through a new ballistics system, which should make firing more realistic; it may or may not touch on deviation, but the new ballistics might balance firefights in ways deviation never could.

Rounds which slow down which means extra drop at range and more lead time further out.

gclark03 wrote: Also, I believe Mosquill is both helping Jonny with ballistics and developing new 3D iron sights that might also change the balance of the game where deviation could only frustrate and annoy the player.

The thing that'll be extremely significant, if implemented, will be the inclusion of sway. With sway, all that extra baseline deviation which is meant to approximate it can be taken out. If sway which is dependent on stance and whether you've just stopped moving can be implemented then the rest of the deviation can be taken out. All that will be left is the deviation you would get if you clamped the weapon down and fired rounds off.

[R-CON]nedlands1 wrote:Rounds which slow down which means extra drop at range and more lead time further out.



The thing that'll be extremely significant, if implemented, will be the inclusion of sway. With sway, all that extra baseline deviation which is meant to approximate it can be taken out. If sway which is dependent on stance and whether you've just stopped moving can be implemented then the rest of the deviation can be taken out. All that will be left is the deviation you would get if you clamped the weapon down and fired rounds off.

Good to hear

Wow those changes sound promising. I guess we can only wait and see.

ReaperMAC wrote:You still can, especially if you know where they are.

How can you return accurate fire whan you cant see ****..?

ReaperMAC wrote: You can actually go Rambo, the accuracy of the weapons is almost laser accurate, bullets usually are on target after the first or second shot. Reckon you probably won't get as many kills as you did in v.6, but it is still a problem. v.7 portrayed firefights more realistically than v.75 where you can still headshot people at 400m away.

No, you cant "tard rush" or go Rambo anymore since if you face multiple oppenents you wont be able to insta headshot both of them anymore due to setling time of the weapon. In 0.6, if you had fast reflexes you could take down a whole squad in 4 sec... Now its just not possible coz of weapon setling time and supression effect.

Wolfe wrote:To answer that, I'll use that same question under a parallel circumstance:

Where is the fun in sitting in a bar and hitting on girls 50 times until you actually manage to get one (and that's by pure luck)? There's more to chicks than scoring. In PR, there's more to combat than killing.

I REALLY didnt get that metaphor..

Waaah_Wah wrote:How can you return accurate fire whan you cant see ****..?

No, you cant "tard rush" or go Rambo anymore since if you face multiple oppenents you wont be able to insta headshot both of them anymore due to setling time of the weapon. In 0.6, if you had fast reflexes you could take down a whole squad in 4 sec... Now its just not possible coz of weapon setling time and supression effect.

You really are dense aren't you? You are just arguing now the sake of arguing. I suppose you are acting the part of the "idiot" from your sig. You certainly seem to be demonstrating your experience at the moment. Do you actually play PR in multi-player or are you just guestimating now? Surely you must be playing a different game than we are.

Just because you get the Suppression Effect (SE) doesn't mean you cant fire. The SE has no effect on accuracy that I am aware of. If you lined up the target before he fires on you first, you can click the mouse and still hit him. I see it happen a lot and I have done it a lot. Even while not being able to see ****. Hell I did the same thing to Spearhead during build testing.

Yes you can take out multiple opponents if they are to close together. Very easily as well. I did that very thing 2 nights ago. Two players where lying prone on a hill side, and I opened fire. I missed both of them, but it activated the SE for both and they didn't have any idea where I was. Two shots later they were both KIA. That was a distance of 183 meters according to the attack marker that I placed on there bodies after the fact. I was also standing up at the time.

You are correct on one thing though. You can't Run-N-Gun in game anymore. However, you CAN Run-Stop-Gun, and you can fire just as well when you stop as you could have in .6 release.

Rico11b wrote:You really are dense aren't you?

Guys, let's not resort to personal attacks. It serves no purpose here and makes us look petty and small.

Bottom line is that some people are not going to change their mind about what they consider fun or boring. We all have our opinions are none are better than any other. The only debate here is what we think a reality mod should be: Realistic looking or realistic behaving. Some want one and not the other.

It'll be interesting once the "Realistic Ballistics" get implemented and how they help out with this issue. This will add in another level of difficulty to hitting a target that will probably be quite welcomed. No longer will it point and click, but instead player-skill marksmenship.

The idea of adding realistic recovery times, deviation etc is all well and good but the key problem is that unlike in real life, in PR there is nothing to tell the player when their character is "ready" to take the shot...
In real life you would know when you are comfortable, fully recovered and prepared to take the shot etc, but in game there is nothing representing this which in turn frustrates the player as there is nothing visually telling them why their shot was a few yards off...

Thats my .02 anyways

Robbeh wrote:In real life you would know when you are comfortable, fully recovered and prepared to take the shot etc, but in game there is nothing representing this which in turn frustrates the player as there is nothing visually telling them why their shot was a few yards off...

What you speak of is weapon sway, which if achieved, would resolve that issue.

Yea that would be one way sure, another thing that could work is add a breathing noise that plays once you scope up...
Obviously not overdone so that you sound like your hyperventilating but something subtle that steadies out the longer you have the site up, then maybe stops once your at maximum accuracy?

Rico11b wrote:You really are dense aren't you? You are just arguing now the sake of arguing. I suppose you are acting the part of the "idiot" from your sig. You certainly seem to be demonstrating your experience at the moment. Do you actually play PR in multi-player or are you just guestimating now? Surely you must be playing a different game than we are.

Just because you get the Suppression Effect (SE) doesn't mean you cant fire. The SE has no effect on accuracy that I am aware of. If you lined up the target before he fires on you first, you can click the mouse and still hit him. I see it happen a lot and I have done it a lot. Even while not being able to see ****. Hell I did the same thing to Spearhead during build testing.

Yes you can take out multiple opponents if they are to close together. Very easily as well. I did that very thing 2 nights ago. Two players where lying prone on a hill side, and I opened fire. I missed both of them, but it activated the SE for both and they didn't have any idea where I was. Two shots later they were both KIA. That was a distance of 183 meters according to the attack marker that I placed on there bodies after the fact. I was also standing up at the time.

You are correct on one thing though. You can't Run-N-Gun in game anymore. However, you CAN Run-Stop-Gun, and you can fire just as well when you stop as you could have in .6 release.

Could not have said it any better myself. About the tard rush, it IS very possible. I was able to wipe out a squad on Qwai on my own, like you said, all I had to do was point and click. Can't do it because of weapon settling time? Most of your bullets will fly true after the 1st or 2nd bullet.

I guess we can say we agree to disagree.