The strangeness of the pop-up move

[Menigmand]

So I was playing a map yesterday with a bunker, and my squad took the position and dug in.

I had the AR and kept covering the north entrance. Having been prone and deployed for a good ten minutes, I thought I would have the advantage when the enemy popped up.

So, well, what happened was: I finally saw the head of an enemy at the other end, and fired off a burst at him. He ducked down (there is a slope outside the entrance) and I waited for him to pop up again (no way he could flank me there).

Ok, well, so he pops up again and shoots me.

I guess the way it works is:

When you pop up, you present only a target the size of your head to the enemy, but you can still shoot. In real life, it would be similar, since the gun is at eye level while aiming, but I just thought the whole affair was odd.

After all, I can't think of being in a position with more advantage than being prone with a deployed AR just waiting for the opponent to appear in the sights.

Now, I know about hit detection and lag and such, this episode just made me think about the dynamics of ambushing, and how in real life, the element of surprise and being in a prepared position gives you a HUGE advantage. In PR, not so much.

[killonsight95]

It's a engine limitation, BF2 can't trigger anything via animations, that's why you can't have "tactical" reloads etc.
Also I don't think going from crounch to standing increases deveation, but tbh, as an Ar you should've kept him supressed and kept firing. bursts and left the killing to one of your riflemen/marksmen.

[saXoni]

As far as I know, going from crouched to stand, doesn't "cost" any deviation. Which means there's no difference, and you don't have to wait before shooting.
So what you had there, was a 50/50 chance of killing him (when it comes to the deviation). You failed

[Menigmand]

Maybe it's possible to script the game to add some deviation when the player presses/releases the crouch button?

It's of course just a game, and I wasn't too bothered yesterday, because obviously the other guy knew how to play his cards. He was careful and that deserves success too.

But it would have been so much greater if he had done the real life thing of flushing me out of there with a grenade, instead of such a 'shootout at high noon'

[saXoni]

Well, I think every PR player would agree that the deviation in this game, excuse my language, sucks.
Being forced to wait 4 seconds before taking the perfect shot when the enemy is 50 meters away from you is very frustrating, especially since you feel the enemy always kills you without waiting for the deviation to settle.

[BlazeDBe3]

Well, I think every PR player would agree that the deviation in this game, excuse my language, sucks.
Being forced to wait 4 seconds before taking the perfect shot when the enemy is 50 meters away from you is very frustrating, especially since you feel the enemy always kills you without waiting for the deviation to settle.

Yea, This.

I can hold my M4 and aim with my ACOG and hit a target 50 meters away without 4 secs...

For a mod going for realism, some things still boggle my mind.

[Smegburt_funkledink]

Maybe it's possible to script the game to add some deviation when the player presses/releases the crouch button?

If anyone knew how to do that, it would be in game already.

Well, I think every PR player would agree that the deviation in this game, excuse my language, sucks.
Being forced to wait 4 seconds before taking the perfect shot when the enemy is 50 meters away from you is very frustrating, especially since you feel the enemy always kills you without waiting for the deviation to settle.

I do not agree but that is because I understand the limitations of BF2 and can see how far PR has come to eliminate arcadey shite from BF2.

Yea, This.

I can hold my M4 and aim with my ACOG and hit a target 50 meters away without 4 secs...

For a mod going for realism, some things still boggle my mind.

There's too many variables in real life that would contribute to having to steady your weapon before being 100% accurate... These things simply cannot be portrayed realistically in BF2.

Try sprinting down a flight of stairs, jumping through a window, spinning around 10 times, then see how quickly you can fire a 100% accurate shot.

There is good reason for deviation, get used to it. If there was a better way of doing it, like weapon sway in Arma2, that would be used instead.

I hope your mind is slightly less boggled.

[ComradeHX]

Going from crouching to standing should have a slight deviation increase; not much, maybe just one second movement's increase amount.

Because crouching/standing up at the rate of quickly tapping ctrl is impossible to do in real life, let along shoot accurately right after standing up.

[Megagoth1702]

0.5-0.75 seconds of "deviation-o-meter" should be added when going from crouch/stand into the other one.

You can still fire back at enemy pretty accurately but it wont really be 100% precise.

[Von_Gnome]

But doesn't the Hat get deviation when you stand up or crouch?

[ComradeHX]

But doesn't the Hat get deviation when you stand up or crouch?

Yes, but the standard rifles apparently do not.

[Murphy]

Prone - Stand is ridiculous, but has got me dozens of kills the past few days. It happens in a split second and as soon as I am up I'm ready to rock, and since I know where the enemy was last and he has no clue where I am about to pop up I win majority of the time. It is far from realistic and I feel dirty after I do it, but I believe there is no clear fix (brought up in similar topics) and if you don't use the tactic the enemy sure as hell will.

[Kain888]

Prone - Stand is ridiculous, but has got me dozens of kills the past few days. It happens in a split second and as soon as I am up I'm ready to rock, and since I know where the enemy was last and he has no clue where I am about to pop up I win majority of the time. It is far from realistic and I feel dirty after I do it, but I believe there is no clear fix (brought up in similar topics) and if you don't use the tactic the enemy sure as hell will.

Pretty much this sums it the best. Just exploit this arcade move its to the end, otherwise other will do it on you.

[Murphy]

Pretty much this sums it the best. Just exploit this arcade move its to the end, otherwise other will do it on you.

Unfortunately you could easily end up being the guy respawning because you play with a sense of fairness that is not shared by the game engine.

[Epim3theus]

One of the most anoying exploits, even worse than the prone dive was imo. The jack in a box won't get any deviation penalty.

If you are on the reseiving end, and at a disadvantage position even after being in advantagous position at the beginning of the fight, you'd better move away. Murphy discribed perfectly what will happen 8 out of 10 times.

[Spec]

Unfortunately you could easily end up being the guy respawning because you play with a sense of fairness that is not shared by the game engine.

That's the thing. Fairness has nothing to do with the game engine.

I can only suggest everyone to play for others as much as for themselves, that makes the game better for everyone.

[BrownBadger]

But doesn't the Hat get deviation when you stand up or crouch?

No. That is why it's frustrating when someone with a HAT is crouched behind an object, pops up for a split second to adjust their aim directly onto your vehicle and then pops up when he's waited for all of the deviation to go. If you could blow up structures this wouldn't be an issue, the only choice when somebody does that is to suppress and/or relocate.

[Gracler]

This "limitation" favors the players who decide to use cover to there advantage and cancel there movement in order to suppress an enemy. I think it is fair that this guy has an easier job to kill his opponent than the guy exposing himself and running and gunning at the same time.

Yes it makes defense easier and offense harder, but that's why you have indirect fire options like grenades...mortar...grenade-launchers...smoke....Area attack...Thermals....etc.

It isn't realistic...but not customizable.

What I do when I spot a guy using this up-down bobbing his head move....i just find some cover and do the same thing on him........It ends up looking kinda odd but it works.

[Menigmand]

This "limitation" favors the players who decide to use cover to there advantage and cancel there movement in order to suppress an enemy.

I think you mean "shoot" an enemy, as suppression is something I never see used in the game. That's another story.

But yes I agree with you that players remaining still and aiming should have a big advantage. But as my example in the first post shows, the popup move actually sometimes cancels that effect. Prone and zoomed in, I should have nailed that guy, but he used popup to take me out instead.

I guess we can maybe just try to think about it as a metaphor for hiding and poking the gun out, firing blind into the corridor ?

Or for taking better cover than the engine will allow (in real life, you can hide more effectively in terrain because you have more body configurations than "stand, crouch or prone"

[Gracler]

True suppressing isn't happening much.

And yes you had a disadvantage over the crouch/stand guy when being prone, that is the downside of this issue.

There is another reason why I prefer crouched/standing over prone and it is probably just in my mind but here it is anyway...

when I'm prone the enemy is forced to aim for my head only, but when I am standing....when not behind cover the enemy will aim for my body and then I have a higher chance of being hurt but lower chance of being killed with the first shot.

I know theoretical the enemy would easier bring down a big target.....but still...that is my own experience in PR.

I guess it has something to do with people aiming for the torso instinctively when a target is standing because he can move faster....and obviously because it is easier to hit, but it will take several shots.

the more he fire at you...the more chance you have at firing at him...and make it count with a head-shot