All guns are way too accurate

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-07 19:27

All the guns in this game are way too accurate.

OK, this isn't so much a problem with the Reality Mod but FPS games in general. The only game I can think of where this isn't the case is BiA. The fact is people have become so good at First Person games they aren't realistic any more.

Take "covering fire" for example. Trying to use covering fire or surpressing fire in BF2 would be completely pointless. If I can see an enemy 75 meters down the street hiding behind cover then I can kill him within a second, even using a SAW (which is not supposed to be accurate). There is no need to shoot in his direction to make him hit the dirt.

Even if I did somehow have trouble hitting him and just ended up spraying his general area, its not like he is going to duck and stop firing at me anyway. We will just both keep shooting at each other until one of us dies, which will be very quickly.

The fact is that the mouse aiming system used by most FPS is not realistic at all. It is possible to use an assault rifle to shoot very accurately perhaps to 300 meters, but its not like you can just bring up your sights and lets loose in a 10th of a second. You have to prepare you shot etc.

trogdor1289 · Post by **trogdor1289** » 2006-10-07 19:30

Okay guys lets keep the flaming to a minimum just point out his errors.

Post by **duckhunt** » 2006-10-07 19:32

Welcome to the forums.

The PR development team are working their best to get this mod as realistic as possible. I see your point about covering fire though.

But you just gotta remember games are games, we are sitting on our arses at our computers and nothing can perfectly emulate weapon handling in real life.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-07 19:37

I don't really have a solution myself.
But I find it funny when I watch a video showing realistic tactics in BF2, like guys using bounding overwatch. There is really no need to use overwatch in the game, just kill whoever you can see and move.

I think the best solution from a realism point of view would be to have a Brothers in Arms type aiming system, where its hard to hit a barn-door from 5 meters, even using iron sights. This would make cover a commodity, rather than practically useless.

However, it would probably turn alot of people off the game as well.

Guerra norte · Post by **Guerra norte** » 2006-10-07 21:07

I see your point, but it's not the weapons that are too accurate, it's more the soldiers who can hold a weapon up without moving a mm. Some kind of "unsteady hand" thing should be implemented like in Sniper elite, OFP, BIA etc.

MrD · Post by **MrD** » 2006-10-07 21:27

The value of life is what makes people not care if their character dies. They stand or lie in the open and fire away taking damage and hoping to kill their enemy first.

It doesn't really work for gaming purposes, but imagine if you only had one life for the round! You would use cover a lot, use less aimed bursts and more "covering fire" to keep the enemies heads down whilst another squad flanked them to take them out.

Think of the times you would be too scared to shoot as you weren't 100% sure you that the target was the enemy. You've got a wife and kids back home and you can't simply be Rambo shouting and grunting and letting rip. You're only carrying so much ammo and you are on the move making resupply so uncertain that you don't want to be left unable to defend yourself.

Theres a reason that the British method of Fire and Manouvre works. Plenty of covering fire keeping enemy heads down and accurate return fire as non-existant as possible till your forces have reached the enemy and start posting grenades in their trenches or are leaping into the same trenches bayonet first.

Maybe the Devs should make a mode for the game with one life for the round that can be chosen by server admin on special occassions and maybe some people would realise how poorly they are playing and get frustrated or they'll realise instantly how valuable a soldiers life is to himself when the bullets are flying. A quick education in how your firing patterns change might help those who haven't got military experience in the real world to understand better why the realism for the game has to be that one notch less in this particular circumstance.

MrD · Post by **MrD** » 2006-10-07 21:34

we have the 30 seconds (+1 second for each death suffered that round to date) respawn time already.

In the absence of a one life per round gaming solution I have thought for a while now (and posted such a few times) that we should be looking at 60 seconds minimum spawn times already. maybe with a flexible system on top of that.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-10-07 21:41

Yeah, I find it's very unrealistic that, not only can we spawn at any captured point, but we only have to wait 30 seconds

{GD}StevenGarcia · Post by **{GD}StevenGarcia** » 2006-10-07 21:43

MrD wrote: In the absence of a one life per round gaming solution I have thought for a while now (and posted such a few times) that we should be looking at 60 seconds minimum spawn times already. maybe with a flexible system on top of that.

I like this idea. However IMO, I think the issue of spawn killing needs to be dealt with before something like this is implemented. I can just imagine the frustration from waiting a minute to spawn, only to be mowed down by some insta-prone support the second I spawn.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-07 22:39

Seems like most of you have completely missed the point.

Increasing spawn times is just going to make the game incredibly frustrating unless the game is fixed in some fundamental way.

The fact is that having longer spawn would only be worthwile if playing carefully actually meant you survived longer. However, this is not the case 90% of the time.

Take this example:

I need to get to the end of a street that has large amounts of debris scattered about it.

Should I:

1) Take the "careful" option, moving slowly, crouching down, making as much use of cover as possible?

2) Take the careless option, run down the street, guns blazing at any enemies you can see?

The fact is in BF2 neither option increases the likelihood of you survivng. Cover is practically useless in this game because if any part of your body is exposed you will die. In fact, you probably have a better chance of surviving with option 2 because you are harder to hit when moving.

The point is that the longer spawn time doesn't really encourage careful play, unless your definition of careful is hiding in the corner of a map where no one can find you. It just makes the game frustrating.

soraflair · Post by **soraflair** » 2006-10-07 23:06

There will be modifacations to the accurcacy of the guns in .04 from what I remember.

huleboeren · Post by **huleboeren** » 2006-10-07 23:41

Regarding accuracy of the weapons - has the ironsights been fixed? (a guy took screenshots with punkbuster, and the sights were way off - especially the AK101)
Or is it hardcoded?

Post by **eggman** » 2006-10-07 23:50

huleboeren wrote:Regarding accuracy of the weapons - has the ironsights been fixed? (a guy took screenshots with punkbuster, and the sights were way off - especially the AK101)

Yeah we've done some work there.

ArmedDrunk&Angry · Post by **ArmedDrunk&Angry** » 2006-10-08 00:41

iron sights ... i thought we called them bilges and grain now.. ?
The unsteady arm and wandering aim after a sprint would be great but the game kicks a$$ right now. I really don't like to get killed so i do duck when rounds come my way and i see others doing the same so suppresive fire is an element in the game.
The bounding overwatch is very useful when the point man walks over a SAW gunner, is killed but revived after the assualt man drops some 40mm rounds on the saw gunner.
I want true realism. Hook a TENS unit up to the keyboard and mouse and chair. When you get shot in the game you get shocked in RL. If you are bleeding you get continous low pwer shocks.

mdterp1987 · Post by **mdterp1987** » 2006-10-08 00:46

Actually from what I understand the SAW is very accurate.

Gecko1969 · Post by **Gecko1969** » 2006-10-08 05:31

From what I remember the moving hand is not part of the BF2 engine. We have to live with rock steady hands and guns that don't shoot straight. Until a new engine comes out and the Devs are happy to switch we will learn to enjoy what we have. I for one enjoy the game as it is now.

I think we are rare people who enjoy less the arcade feel of games but look for a balance between fun/real. For example, for me at least, when playing OPF I did not realize that I was being penalized for my squadmates dying and became stuck as I got too many "red Xs". I was pissed as the squadmates while not as dumb as rocks, need to be micro-managed. I HATE micro-managing. I would rather get on VOIP and direct real people as they can think thier way out of problems. The AI in OPF would not know how to wipe thier @$$ unless you tell them. So while OPF has hand sway and other neato stuff the squad work killed the joy of the game for me. (When a BMP rolls up on your team the guy with the LAW better know what to do like at least look at the damm thing, but no he keeps looking in whatever way he squated down in).

If cover fire was inaccurate but if you get hit you are dazed and start to bleed out such that you could only crawl you would think about running out in front of it. As it is now the MG with a nice burst will just leave you dead.

Punisher1 · Post by **Punisher1** » 2006-10-08 05:42

Gecko1969 wrote:From what I remember the moving hand is not part of the BF2 engine. We have to live with rock steady hands and guns that don't shoot straight. Until a new engine comes out and the Devs are happy to switch we will learn to enjoy what we have. I for one enjoy the game as it is now.

I think we are rare people who enjoy less the arcade feel of games but look for a balance between fun/real. For example, for me at least, when playing OPF I did not realize that I was being penalized for my squadmates dying and became stuck as I got too many "red Xs". I was pissed as the squadmates while not as dumb as rocks, need to be micro-managed. I HATE micro-managing. I would rather get on VOIP and direct real people as they can think thier way out of problems. The AI in OPF would not know how to wipe thier @$$ unless you tell them. So while OPF has hand sway and other neato stuff the squad work killed the joy of the game for me. (When a BMP rolls up on your team the guy with the LAW better know what to do like at least look at the damm thing, but no he keeps looking in whatever way he squated down in).

If cover fire was inaccurate but if you get hit you are dazed and start to bleed out such that you could only crawl you would think about running out in front of it. As it is now the MG with a nice burst will just leave you dead.

LOL

You have to remember that you have a large mix of players some have experiance and others do not.

I've watched squad member give my perfect Sniper position away by trying to light up an area hitting nothing. It did not take the other team but 5 seconds to lob in 40mm grenades on our position killing us both.

But then again some have too much BF2 experiance and no real world experiance.

As seen in may posts, theres alot of folks that do no research before they post. Nor do they have real world experiance. So what do ya do make the weapons like they should be or listen to some guy who have never or only has shot maybe a few weapons in his entire life?

Best thing to do is search the various video sources out on the web and see what you're talking about.

kingcnut · Post by **kingcnut** » 2006-10-08 08:28

Fishw0rk wrote:You're basically saying making guns less accurate will make people take cover? Ummmm....

If I know the guy shooting at me from down the street has an inaccurate gun then WHY would I even *bother* taking cover? He's not going to hit me anyway...

I *should* be taking cover if I know he has a good chance of hitting me.

Nope, totally not what I'm saying.

I'm saying making guns less accurate will give people a chance to take cover and hide.

Ideally what should happen is you hear bullets wizzing around you and you hide behind a wall. However, this just doesn't happen in BF2 that often. What usually happens is you die straight away because the guns are so accurate and it is so easy to kill people.