FOB's vs. Ninjas - Modifications to FOB system

[Stoickk]

This suggestion was born of this thread, which raised concern over the negative effect that "Lone Wolf" or "Ninja" players have on public matches. The following is a refined version of my post on Page 2 of that same thread.

There are a few problems here...

Problem

Lone wolves are bad for game play in general in most cases already. Lone Wolves, by their very nature, are not teamwork oriented players, and play in a manner that is detrimental to their own team, and the game as a whole. Versus their own team, these players are often responsible for taking and locking a squad spot as a single player, taking a kit while part of another squad and then leaving, taking and abandoning assets, and generally acting in a manner inconsistent with team play and the overall strategy.

At the game level, Lone Wolves will often roam behind enemy lines and knife lightly defended or unattended FOB's. With the current standardized player limit of 64, it is not mathematically realistic allocation of forces to defend every FOB. I propose that some changes to FOB's are in order to reduce the impact of "Lone Wolfing" on game play These changes would specifically limit or eliminate the ability of a Lone Wolf to completely destroy a FOB on their own.

I offer the following quote (with much thanks to the original poster for doing the basic math and saving me the trouble.) as evidence of the problem with allocation of forces to defense of all FOB's. As a caveat, every tactical scenario is different, and you could probably play dozens of "what if" scenarios, but they all boil down to the same basic concept. I chose to accept this scenario as presented to save time.

With 64 player you cannot have people defending fobs, except if it comes to that scenario. So lets see., lets say that 3 players per FOB, because there might be 2 ninjas.

Max amount of fobs is 6 iirc , but lets say there is only 5 present, wich is kinda the aregular amount you see.

That is 15 people sitting on fobs looking out for ninjas.
You have 17 left. Of those 17, 6 is in Armoured vehicles. 11 left. There is two transport choppers. 9. Also an attack/scout fully manned chopper, results to 7. Someone is a sniper. 6. A full INF squad, wich, by my experience often isnt really teamwork oriented. But lets say were lucky and its a completely decent mumble squad.

One squad to operate on the field, split into 2 groups, so one can defend one attack.

3 players per combat area.

Lets say other team has same assets, but doesnt defend the FOBs. That is 15 more. 2 full INF squads and lets say 3 added to an APC, as MECH INF.

Those 3 guys defending/attacking will face atleast 1 INFSQD plus additional 1 INFSQD or 1 MECHINFSQD.

You are toast.
...

Considerations

Vehicles, MBT's especially should definitely be able to destroy a FOB. Any proposed change to address this issue must keep this in mind. Real world, armored vehicles can level entire buildings. FOB's should be no problem. Any change that would remove the ability for vehicles to destroy FOB's will encourage spawn camping/raping, which already is somewhat of an issue. My proposed changes will not create imbalance here.

Close range FOB "ninja'ing" is primarily the problem that my post addresses. However, no discussion on this subject would be complete without mentioning HAT versus FOB. Currently, a single player can kill a FOB at range easily with a HAT system, which still encourages "Lone Wolf" game play. This is a problem, but one that needs to be resolved without nerfing HAT effectiveness versus armor: something which should be avoided at all costs. My suggestions take this into account as well.

Recon squads, when properly employed can be very enjoyable as well as providing teamwork and team-oriented game play. This differs substantially from "Lone Wolfing" and should be encouraged. Currently, however, these types of squads pose a similar threat to game play at the game level, if not the team level. Any proposed changes should ensure that while "Lone Wolves" are prevented from "ninja'ing" FOB's, recon squads will still have an impact on game play in that realm, albeit with significantly increased challenge. My proposals account for this consideration as well.

Solution

I propose the following changes to FOB mechanics to address the aforementioned issues.

1. When a radio is knifed, have it cause a specific amount of damage to the FOB, but not destroy the FOB. Keep the damage mechanic to the player intact, however increase the amount of damage to approximately 30% of maximum player health. The reason this will help is that it will take multiple stabs to the radio to destroy a FOB, causing a player to bleed out in the absence of a medic.

2. Solution 1 can be addressed by increasing the health of FOB's. FOB health should be adjusted high enough so that enough stabs to kill the FOB will also kill the player in the absence of medical aid. Ideally 75% (or whatever the current percentage is to have a FOB revert from the full model to the "pile of dirt" model) damage to FOB should cause 100% damage to the player. This will eliminate lone wolf FOB ninja elimination completely, as even with one patch, a lone player will bleed out long before he will be able to reach a friendly medic, and will be forced to traverse the front lines while bleeding and coughing. This will make him easier to track down.
2a. I propose that it should require at least as much damage as is required to destroy a Weapons Cache (1 C4/4 Incendiary Grenades) to reduce a fully functional (100% health) FOB to the "pile of dirt" model. At a minimum, a player would need to be in a two man squad with a Squad Leader (1 patch on basic kit plus 3 on Squad Leader, or Combat Medic in squad) or Medic to keep from dying after "ninja'ing" a fob, even if the standard two incendiary grenades are taken into account. As a side thought to this issue, I ask you to ponder the following. If it takes four incendiary grenades to make a pile of ammunition and explosives explode, why is it realistic for one incendiary in the dirt to destroy a FOB?

2b. If necessary, knife damage can be increased without unbalancing infantry combat. As it stands currently, one stab will instantly place a full health soldier in a "Wounded" state. An increase in damage will have exactly the same effect, thus balance will be preserved.

3. Adjust FOB spawn attributes so that a FOB is not spawnable if FOB health is below 100%. By adding this measure, single players and small squads will still have an effect on gameplay, as saboteurs operating behind the front lines should. However, it will require much more time and effort on the part of these small squads to completely destroy a FOB, allowing the opposing team time to react. In contrast, the saboteurs can opt to disrupt supply lines by damaging the FOB and then move out to avoid retaliation. The opposing team may miss the raiders, but they retain their asset, which requires minimal repairs to become functional again.
3a. By increasing FOB health, it will require a higher number of direct hits from both man portable and vehicular weapon systems. While this eliminates the issue on the ground, it will take more shots from a vehicle to destroy the FOB. This mechanic vastly reduces the potential for FOB raping, as after the first round impacts the FOB, it will no longer be spawnable until repaired.

4. I know this is a bit of a touchy one, but bear with me. Remove fixed asset bleed. While man-made objects will tend to deteriorate and break down over time, that mechanic is far too accelerated in PR. With all due respect (and a ton of appreciation ) to the Dev's, fixed asset bleed is detrimental to gameplay, and should be removed. This is a critical point to all of the above points, as without it, a player could still hop around landing one knife shot per fob and letting them "bleed out." As a side note, this will also address (in my opinion, but at the very least impact, if you'll pardon the pun) the mortar fire versus fixed assets problem which has been an ongoing debate in the community for quite some time.

As with anything that I post, I welcome any constructive criticism, thoughts, concerns, etc. Feel free to take my ideas and run with them. My only goal here is to give back to the game and community which has provided me with countless hours of entertainment.

[Arc_Shielder]

I'm all in favour for this. I have read it carefully and I can't spot any flaw in it.

Also, as you referred in the bottom, would eradicate the nonsensical asset bleeding as a collateral benefit.

[ryan d ale]

Lone wolves are bad for game play in general in most cases already. Lone Wolves, by their very nature, are not teamwork oriented players, and play in a manner that is detrimental to their own team, and the game as a whole. Versus their own team, these players are often responsible for taking and locking a squad spot as a single player, taking a kit while part of another squad and then leaving, taking and abandoning assets, and generally acting in a manner inconsistent with team play and the overall strategy.

At the game level, Lone Wolves will often roam behind enemy lines and knife lightly defended or unattended FOB's. With the current standardized player limit of 64, it is not mathematically realistic allocation of forces to defend every FOB. I propose that some changes to FOB's are in order to reduce the impact of "Lone Wolfing" on game play These changes would specifically limit or eliminate the ability of a Lone Wolf to completely destroy a FOB on their own.

Disagree, you're looking at things from an isolated point of view.

Many people want to fight as part of a team (this is you). You primarily want to fight.

Some people want to collect intelligence so that people can prepare defence/attacks/ambush/area attack/mortar.

Others like to attempt to stop supplies and reinforcements via IEDs.

The good thing about PR is the options available.

Perhaps the FOB ninja is a problem.

Maybe it's just a team organisation problem. Defend the FOB, near the flag.

[ShockUnitBlack]

What about incendiary grenades? I can, if nothing else, use them to damage a FOB and make it unspawnable, which nulifies the whole point of the suggestion here. I destroy FOBs because I don't want enemies spawning on them. Even if I don't destroy the entire FOB, I've still completed my objective.

[Spec]

Stoickk, I hope you don't mind if I smuggle a somewhat different solution for the same problem in here (accounting for incendiary grenades, too):

I'd simply make FOBs non-destructible unless by heavy vehicles or area attacks and such. Knifing the radio will do nothing, incendiary grenades will only damage secondary structures (TOWs etc) - the sneaky stealth squad could well take out the defenses, but not prevent the respawning.

However, there should be one way to make respawning impossible: As long as no defenders are present (the area needs to be completely clear, like with a flag) AND a number (5ish perhaps?) of attackers are in the area (or maybe even: Were in the area for at least x amount of time?), any Officer can use the radio to de-spawn the enemy FOB while close to it. Thus, to overrun an FOB, you either need to closely work together with armor, or have a large infantry unit take and hold the area. Sneaky single soldiers won't be able to do any more than destroying defensive structures.

This would result in
a) more mechanized infantry stuff and generally, closer cooperation between infantry and armour
b) only an actual assault being an option to clear the area

(OP, if you feel my suggestion deviates too much from yours - I didn't want to rival yours. I can move it to an own thread if you wish. Just didn't want to clutter the forums.)

[Stoickk]

Spec, I am all for input. My idea is by no means the only correct answer to the problem. One flaw that I see with the "indestructible" solution is as follows. This will encourage spawn rape by small infantry squads, especially so if they are using IED's, Claymores, or other explosive devices. By allowing small squads to disrupt or destroy FOB's, the preferred course of action will be to eliminate the FOB rather than camping it.

[Spec]

Good point, yes, I see the problem. Could be solved by more easily turning off the option to respawn when small units are present, though, I suppose, though that also means that while a lone wolf can't destroy an FOB, he could disable it quite easily. Hm, thinking about it, this'd nearly turn FOBs into flags, not sure whether that's a good or a bad thing.

[Stoickk]

Problems of this nature are the reason that I opted for the proposal in the original post. My changes have the most minimal impact on game play outside of the desired effect of reducing ninja capabilities. Personally, I like the idea of a small recon squad being able to destroy a FOB, however it should be an in depth effort in terms of teamwork and equipment both. That is why I proposed that FOB's should take as much damage as is required to destroy a cache to break it down to the "pile of dirt" model. This way, recon squads can still have an effect on game play, while increasing the teamwork aspect of those squads.

As for turning the FOB's into flags, I personally don't think that it will work out in terms of game play. Often, it is already difficult to get squads in a public match to focus on a common goal. By adding a ton of new mini-objectives, I believe that it will further fragment teams. Additionally, as previously mentioned, with the current standard of 64 player servers, there simply is not enough manpower to adequately defend FOB's and still maintain any type of operational ability.

[Spec]

Well yeah, don't want to derail your thread any further. I suppose my suggestion is better suited for the CnC game mode, where the FOB is the flag. Now, anyway, back to discussing the original suggestion^^

[Rhino]

Multiple knifes to take out an FO is an old idea floating round the dev forums for some time which the only reason I believe it hasn't got implemented is no one got round to doing it...
With it the idea also was to have a loud noise while knifing it etc to alert any surrounding troops.

Making you require a medic etc after killing it isn't going to work too well IMO, will just make no one want to knife it, even if they are in a squad with a medic.

Incendiary nades is a tricky one, as if you make knifing hard to do in one way or another, incendiary nades is still on the table unless you make them useless against FOs too.


I can see two possibilities to this problem, possibly a mixture of the two.

1. Knifes and Incendiary nades take multiple hits to destroy FOs, say about 15 knifes, and 5 Incendiary nades for a estimate on what might work. This means one lone wolf will take a long time to destroy the FO on his own, and also wont have enough Incendiary nades on his own to do it, both making a very loud noise to alert anyone around and the time it takes might mean an enemy might spawn, killing him. With multiple people, you can have quite a few guys knifing at the same time, 1/2ing or more the time depending on how many guys you have, or all tossing there nades on at the same time, or have the guys covering while one knifes the radio repeatedly.

2. Squad Leader kit is the only semi-common kit, that by definition can not really low wolf very well, as he needs guys in his squad to get the kit, and its unlikely that he is going to ditch his fellow squad mates to hunt FOs on his own, but then again, this change might make that more common... Anyways the idea is to give the SL a weapon which can quickly take out a FO, while normal kits can't or can't take it out at all, then requiring a SL to do the job, which isn't so rare that it wouldn't ever happen, but is common enough to only happen when a squad overruns an FO.

On top of this I would also like to see the explosion damage removed off FOs.

[maarit]

i made some time ago suggestion about that add radar to the DOD area...that if enemy enters on DOD are he becomes visible on map.
i really dont know is it hardcoded or what but maybe with 64 players there would be some radar on fob,like presenting guardpatrol or something.
so if enemy enters 50m from fob,he becomes visible 5 seconds in one minute or something.
but if there sometimes gonna be more players (120+)there should be someone guarding the fobs.

[Stoickk]

I appreciate the feedback guys. Keep it coming.

One primary reason for requesting the increase in damage to player when knifing a FOB is to directly impact Lone Wolf behavior. Currently, the Sniper kit (a favorite kit of Lone Wolves everywhere) for example, still has the capability to eliminate an enemy FOB, even with the lack of Incendiary grenades on the kit. By implementing the increase in damage to player, as well as the removal of the fixed asset bleed, a lone Sniper will still be able to sabotage enemy supply lines by damaging the FOB, however their impact will be greatly reduced. With my proposed changes, a Sniper will only be able to knife the radio once and then must use the patch on the kit. This damage will render the FOB unspawnable, thus impacting enemy supply lines, however will also retain the asset for the enemy team. Additionally, it will only take minimal repairs to bring that asset back online. This will discourage lone players from attacking FOB's on their own, as without support, ultimately their impact on the enemy supply lines will be relatively minimal.

As for Incendiary grenades, I think that they should be the preferred method of dealing with a FOB, as well as other fixed assets. Requiring six grenades (five to reduce the model to the pile of dirt, and an additional one to remove the asset completely) would probably work. This provides a significant sound signature on its own, as well as an increased expenditure of time to eliminate the FOB, as each squad member will have to wait before piling on an additional incendiary to avoid damage to their squad mates. Knifing a FOB should be the alternative method of destruction, and one that should require assistance to complete, bringing us back to the point of damage to a player.

I like the sound effect when knifing idea. Perhaps a burst of radio static would be appropriate, since the radio is what is being damaged when knifing. I also support the removal of FOB explosion damage. Realistically, the only fixed assets that I can possibly see having explosion damage on might be the emplaced weapon systems due to stored ammunition.

[Bringerof_D]

how about this:

following Spec's idea we have indestructible FOBs by things other than explosives. With that we include that ANY projectile landing within 20 meters of the FOB will disable spawn. This should not be too unrealistic as under normal conditions supply runs would be off if the intended destination is under attack so as to prevent the loss of assets and supplies. That said if there is a dire need for supplies exceptions will be made.

however this like many of the reasons against my FOB suggestion here are player based problems. The system itself works, it is the lack of effort from players which limits us at this point. ie the lack of personel defending objectives or FOBs, humvees being used and abandoned, logi trucks and etc.

there is very little we can come up with that will encourage realistic behavior without turning PR back into an arcadey type game with silly restrictions. These types of features are as the devs call, "compromises" like the lack of defensive weaponry for pilots, or the short locking range of all guided munitions currently in game.

back on topic: I definitely agree with the OP, but at the same time it is unnecessary if teams were organized properly and worked in a realistic manner.

[maniac1031]

Why are we making fobs even harder to take out. The things are unrealistic as is why give them a radar that shows where the enemy are. What if you are attacking a fob with an entire squad your still going to show up on the map and get screwed over as a result.

Or lets take this scenario that happened last night when playing on pavlosk bay. I was in a 4 man inf squad on the Russian team. the flags were north south facility the the village that starts with a D and east beach. Their was consent fighting around the village so we thought we should build some fobs around the facility in case we lost it. We ended up loosing the village but managed to hold of the Marines long enough to cap it back. Me and another guy where bogged down with a few marines and the other 2 guys in our squad kept moving to the village. on the way their they found an enemy fob that was 200 m south west of the village where they had spawned a whole squad. Our 2 guys proceed to engage the fob but only managed to take out 4 guys and couldn't take down the fob in time. So me and the other guy that where still alive moved in from the south to see if we could take out the fob and get our squad leader and other guy up. Knowing that the fob was still up and they would keep spawning people on it I wanted to take it out Before I started the revives. I told my other guy to cover me when I moved into take out the fob. Right before I knifed it 2 squads spawned on it and almost killed me but i managed to hide in a bush before they saw me. I ended up being able to knife the fob and then get my guys up so we could kill the other 2 squads but if the changes that you wanted had been implemented than I would have ended either A bleeding to death after knifing the fob or B not been able to destroy it before they got back. The fobs should go down when there is a guy on it because the number of times that I've been the last person left alive in my squad go to take out their fob only to have a squad spawn on me is ridiculous. But the wounded effect should defiantly be removed its unrealistic and serves no purpose.

[drs79]

I like the new feature where if there is a large enemy prescence an fob is not spawnable. Are lone wolves that big of a problem? If so a great way to curtail them especially those who take kits and leave squads is to report them and call them out publicly.

From my own experience I think that the fob system has been working well and the damage you receive now is far greater than it was before when you knifed a fob.

Some of these suggestions also make me want/wish thst CnC was played more, because playing this type of round shows just how important FOB's are to the regular type of player.

Maybe increase the knife count to 5. But imho I don't think the fob system has to be tweaked all thst much.

How about this suggestion:
FOB - one crate needed. Two crates can allow deployment of Razor Wire, foxholes and either TOW, mortars or 2 .50 cals. But not all three at the same location

Bunker - two crates required, can allow construction of all deployables at the same site.

[Murphy]

I feel a fob should remain vulnerable as it is a very very powerful tool at any teams disposal. If the team is abandoning the fobs and allow enemies to slip through the lines why would you give them an easier time not caring about fobs?

I feel we would have issues with audacious fob placements while the enemy is unable to get rid of the ill defended spawn point. It's as if I could just place a fob and then completely disregard defenses, or even thinking about it other then when I need to spawn. I do not believe that promotes anything other then allowing the team to not care about defending fobs, and as it stands we already have an issue with people not defending their spawn points correctly.

This seems like a solution to perpetuate the real issue of no one wanting to defending FOBs even though you already have every tool to do so.

[Xander[nl]]

This seems like a solution to perpetuate the real issue of no one wanting to defending FOBs even though you already have every tool to do so.

Like said before, a team of 32 simply has no man to spare to defend a FOB. Let alone to defend all of them.
We either need 64 players per team or some kind of overhaul.

[badmojo420]

Anyways the idea is to give the SL a weapon which can quickly take out a FO, while normal kits can't or can't take it out at all, then requiring a SL to do the job, which isn't so rare that it wouldn't ever happen, but is common enough to only happen when a squad overruns an FO.

On top of this I would also like to see the explosion damage removed off FOs.

^This seems like the best idea so far. And the sl already has the radio so a right click option to 'remove fo' could be added, but make it require at least two squad members present. So therefore a couple inf could still neutralize(overrun) the enemy FO and stop people from spawning on it, but they would have to hold the area until their SL moves up and removes the FO entirely.

It would also be wise to keep the effects of c4 and heavy weapons against the FO, to prevent armor camping them. Maybe not c4, because it would encourage joining squads to steal that kit, but in a perfect world c4 should still take out a FO.

[Murphy]

Here's an example of when this mechanic would backfire huge; Last night, seeding on Mestia, I was pretty much the only one on the offensive. I had located the enemy fob and sat there watching as a dozen or so players respawned about 30 meters away from me. After I felt the spawning/fighting had died down enough I started to make my move. Needless to say more people spawned while I was advancing, and thus had lost visual on the FOB itself. When I got there I basically caught all three of them with their heads in the moon, one seemed AFK the other two were sorting kits. Ya I spawn camped them, ya it felt uncool to be doing this to oblivious opponents, and hell yes this is a dirty tactic.

So why encourage it to the maximum extent by basically forcing someone to spawn camp if they want to slow enemy reinforcements down? I could have taken the CE kit they requested and had a real fun time, especially if the fob will keep bringing my helpless victims.

Sorry this idea will make for worse, more unrealistic game-play then we have now, particularly encouraging spawn campers which are not a real problem.

[sweedensniiperr]

3. Adjust FOB spawn attributes so that a FOB is not spawnable if FOB health is below 100%. By adding this measure, single players and small squads will still have an effect on gameplay, as saboteurs operating behind the front lines should. However, it will require much more time and effort on the part of these small squads to completely destroy a FOB, allowing the opposing team time to react. In contrast, the saboteurs can opt to disrupt supply lines by damaging the FOB and then move out to avoid retaliation. The opposing team may miss the raiders, but they retain their asset, which requires minimal repairs to become functional again.[/INDENT]

Adding to this: How about making the FOBs regenerate health and/or regenerate if health is over x%. When the ninjas injure the FOB it becomes unspawnable, which ofcourse is negative for that team. After awhile the FOB will become spawnable unless something else happens. Obviously the FOB can also be repaired.