Hate not being able to respawn

[Joker86]

Hi!

First of all I need to say that the game is great fun, and I really enjoy playing it.

But still, although I should not be a complete noob any more, I still don't get why it sometimes has to happen that you can't spawn any more.

I think this should be removed completely. One day I was playing AAS, and almost the entire enemy team consisted of one clan. A single BRDM-2 was able to hold down half of our team on the southern flank, made like 30 kills in five minutes, and before the map has passed 10 minutes, all flags were taken.

But worst thing was: I couldn't spawn any more!

Can someone give me a good, reasonable gameplay argument to not being allowed to spawn in your base when all the flags in the center of the map are lost? I mean, the losing team should get a chance to turn the tables, but instead it's enough to have a bad start and your team won't make it back into the game most likely.

It's like disabling the medic class if your team has the fewer tickets left. It favours the winner, is a big disadvantage to the loser, it is completely irrational and frustrating as fuck.

I had to spend like five to ten minutes watching the map. When the round was over and the new map came, the server has lost almost half of its population. I wouldn't call that smart game design. Motivation managment should always be taken into concern when creating a gamemode.

[CommunistComma]

It's win by cap out, it's a type of win condition. It's why the flags have a purpose.
Once you lose all the flags, generally speaking, you lose.

It usually only happens when the teams are wholly unbalanced, and most of the higher integrity clans won't stack a team so wholly.

[Joker86]

It's win by cap out, it's a type of win condition. It's why the flags have a purpose.

Once you lose all the flags, generally speaking, you lose.

And this needs to take 5 to 10 minutes?

Make the round end as soon as all flags are taken.

And I think the gamemode would work very well if people could still spawn in their main base and try to fight the enemy back.

The state as it is now is not really fair. The scenario I experienced isn't that unrealistic. Just have your HAT die a quick death, and a single APC or two can wreak havoc between your main and the rest of the map, and it's over before you had a chance to do something.

If this is a winning condition, then it is a bad one and should be removed. I still insist on a reason why a team that lost all flags shouldn't be allowed to reconquer them.

The odds are against them, anyway. The enemy can build fortifications as he likes it, and there is only one direction you can come from, the corner of the map where your main is. I think if a team manages to push the enemy back it deserved to have a chance to win the map. And if not, at least the tickets will deplete faster.

[CommunistComma]

I don't really think the game is designed for a team to be capped out that quickly, there's supposed to be a gross loss of tickets before a team is capped out.
No doubt the clan that you played against already has a dubious reputation concerning sportsmanship.

[Beav]

I play AAS style in a Joint Operations Tournament and the concept is the same, whichever team has the greatest amount of people in the contested zone they are in possession of the zone. Example, if red team has 15 players in the blue zone 9contested), and blue only have 10, then the zone is "broken", which means the red team is in the process of taking that zone, now if the blue team sends in reinforcements, then theoretically it could take 5-10 minute before either army could spawn in that zone, since the fight is there. Once the blue team is taken out or completely over powered the contested zone becomes the red zone, but you can not spawn there until the zone is "fully camped".
I hope that clears things a bit and that I understood the concern correctly. I can't say how exciting it is to see BF2 with AAS, great mode of play.

[Joker86]

I don't really think the game is designed for a team to be capped out that quickly, there's supposed to be a gross loss of tickets before a team is capped out.
No doubt the clan that you played against already has a dubious reputation concerning sportsmanship.

I think it was the NwA clan on the NwA server, the only server which is full every night.

And even if a team is capped out, either make it end immediately, or give the team a chance to turn the battle. But don't let them sit in the respawn screen for minutes, that's retarded.

I play AAS style in a Joint Operations Tournament and the concept is the same, whichever team has the greatest amount of people in the contested zone they are in possession of the zone. Example, if red team has 15 players in the blue zone 9contested), and blue only have 10, then the zone is "broken", which means the red team is in the process of taking that zone, now if the blue team sends in reinforcements, then theoretically it could take 5-10 minute before either army could spawn in that zone, since the fight is there. Once the blue team is taken out or completely over powered the contested zone becomes the red zone, but you can not spawn there until the zone is "fully camped".
I hope that clears things a bit and that I understood the concern correctly. I can't say how exciting it is to see BF2 with AAS, great mode of play.

I am not concerned about the cappable flags, it's fine as it is. It's about your main base being locked (!!!) as soon as you don't have any flags on the server. Which seems retarded to me, as it only takes away from the game, further demotivates the losing team (resulting in a half empty server as soon as a team is being capped out) and punishes the losers.

[Beav]

I am not concerned about the cappable flags, it's fine as it is. It's about your main base being locked (!!!) as soon as you don't have any flags on the server. Which seems retarded to me, as it only takes away from the game, further demotivates the losing team (resulting in a half empty server as soon as a team is being capped out) and punishes the losers.

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

[ComradeHX]

And this needs to take 5 to 10 minutes?

Make the round end as soon as all flags are taken.

No, it does not take 5-10 minutes.

That only happens when your team still has people alive, which gives a chance to retake the flag.

[Joker86]

Apologies for the misunderstanding.

No apology needed

No, it does not take 5-10 minutes.

That only happens when your team still has people alive, which gives a chance to retake the flag.

What chance is this? Tiny to none, I would say. Especially if it's a scenario like mine, where the HAT man is down, the survivors being nailed down by an APC in a T-shape building, and the next supply crate is 300m away, which could be at the dark side of the moon as well.

It's not like the dead players could respawn in the main base, grab a new HAT kit there and bust the tank. He can turn his back towards our main base an concentrate on keeping the few survivors down.

And if a squad really manages to get close to a flag, all the enemy needs to do is to see which flag disappears, and wipe that miserable rest of the enemy team which dares to try to play the game.

Yes, the inferior team has a chance to recapture a flag, but why does this chance need to be so limited? That's the answer I'd like to hear. Why can't the entire team try to recapture a flag?

I still haven't heard a reason for the main base being locked, something like "If the main base doesn't get locked players would spawn there and thus the sun would drop on the map and the server would crash."

Tell me a negative effect of players spawning in the main base when all flags are capped. Because some kind of main base siege would evolve? I don't think so, everyone who approaches into firing range to the enemy main base will die. And even if there is some kind of siege situation: it's still better to be besieged and try to fight your way out than half of the team watching the map and the other half hiding from the superior enemies and trying to sneak around and evading the enemy by all means, which always takes ages. You sorround the flag by an EXTRA block, just to go for sure to not encounter some enemies who could give away your position to the rest of the team.

A nice side effect of this siege battle would be that the tickets would be lowered even faster.

Actually you have only to decide: half of the players waiting in respawn screen for a long time, or all players fighting a siege battle for a short time. Decide.

[Psyrus]

Actually you have only to decide: half of the players waiting in respawn screen for a long time, or all players fighting a siege battle for a short time. Decide.

The first option, since the game is already over given the inevitable ticket bleed and the other team will have considerable map control. Best to get it over with.

You don't like that situation? Perhaps you should dedicate your squad to always being the defense squad like I do. Losing a flag removes 30 tickets from your team and puts you on the back foot. Having a dug in squad at each defense flag lowers the chance of this happening considerably.

[Joker86]

The first option, since the game is already over given the inevitable ticket bleed and the other team will have considerable map control. Best to get it over with.

But if the losing team could spawn the tickets would deplete even faster! And half of the team would still be able to actually play the game.

The second option is superior by all means.

You don't like that situation? Perhaps you should dedicate your squad to always being the defense squad like I do. Losing a flag removes 30 tickets from your team and puts you on the back foot. Having a dug in squad at each defense flag lowers the chance of this happening considerably.

I don't think the game should be turned into a campfest. Deviation, supply, buildings fobs and fortifications, all that already takes out the pace of the game. No need to further motivate defensive behaviour by a mechanic which I still haven't heard a good reason for.

Edit: don't misunderstand me, if there is something I hate in life it's broccoli and Call of Duty. But I think sometimes aggressive and mobile warfare can lead to some pretty interesting fights, whereas camping and fixed frontlines lead to WW-I like material battles, which are a lot about waiting on a position or trying to look around a corner without being shot, until massive usage of mortars and vehicles finally causes a breakthrough under heavy losses.

[Psyrus]

But if the losing team could spawn the tickets would deplete even faster! And half of the team would still be able to actually play the game.

The second option is superior by all means.

You're pretty new here so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You might notice I've been around for a few iterations of this game. When I started, and up to about 0.6/0.7 as far as I can recall, many main base flags were set to uncappable, which meant that after all the flags in play were capped, you could still spawn at your mains, just like how you think it should be.

And here's the problem with that:
BASE RAPE

I recall one too many games of Kashan desert, getting capped out and spawning at the US/MEC main base, only to see about 3 tanks, an APC and perhaps even an enemy FOB on the hills just outside our base. Of course about 1-2 seconds later I was eviscerated by about a million bullets. And because this was still considered a flag, the ticket bleed was much slower. This meant that my team had the joyful experience of being spawn killed for about 10-15 minutes, especially if the enemy team rushed us and capped all our flags quickly (<15 minutes into the game) which meant we still had a lot of tickets.

The first solution to fix this was to give the main bases a dome of death to the enemy, and then subsequently a bubble of protection, although nowadays I can't remember if that only applies to aerial ordinances or also ground fire. I think it's only the former.

You think people get demoralized and quit a lot with the current situation? Try spawn-dying 20 times in a row and see how many people stick around.

No, sir, the current implementation is far, far better. Plus, when they cap all the flags in play, thus signifying that they have full map control, and you all die, the game instantly ends. This is a far more logical situation than what I experienced ~3 years ago in PR.

If you still don't believe me, then I guess I can't help you. And one other thing I can almost guarantee you is that chances are it'll stay like it is rather than return to the rapefest of <2009.

[Joker86]

First proper answer.

But still, the problem seems to be more about map design that the game mechanic. Of course the main base should NOT be able to be taken under fire from above. And if the spawn point counts as additional flag, you can perhaps change the calculation of the ticket depletion. Instead of letting them deplete like one flag would still belong to you, your ticket bleed would be calculated after subtracting one flag from your caps.

And still, if it isn't possible to implement a proper dome of death or some kind of energy shield dome which stops all bullets from outside, but allows bullets from inside to pass, the game should end as soon as all flags are capped, never mind how many tickets are left.

I think there is no point in watching a black screen/map for minutes which honestly seemed to be 5 to 10 in my upset and impatient perception, only for the chance of about 5% that a surviving squad of my team capps another flag. I know it might happen, and perhaps it's even more than 5% probability, but the map will remain one sided by a chance of 99%, so better start over and even the odds again.

[AFsoccer]

Do you remember which map it was?

[Joker86]

I don't remember the name. I just checked all topics in this forum with map overviews, and I found the map overviews on realitymodfiles.com, but the map was not listed.

- It was US Army/USMC against Russians.
- Amercians started in the SW, Russians in the NE
- It was a city in the desert, and I think I remember there was a harbour and water on the northern edge of the map, or at least in the north east, where the Russians came from
- the borders of the city didn't reach the edge of the map, it was sorrounded be open, sandy desert with small dunes
- In the south east there are those red brickstone buildings with many floors and those windows which reach to the floor. You know, with those "balcony" rods in front of the windows.
- There were like four of those building, forming the south eastern corner of the city. Each of these houses had a small open place in front of it, framed by a low wall, just high enough to get some cover if you crouch behind it. The open places always showed to the center of the city.

That's all I remember, I didn't see much more of the city

[Stealthgato]

There's no desert map with US vs. Russians.

[Joker86]

There's no desert map with US vs. Russians.

The enemy had a BRDM-2 at least. That's what I remember. And I am pretty sure we were Americans... although I could always be wrong, I play the game for three weeks now, had the map only that one time, and it was some time ago... :

Edit: I checked it, it was Beirut. And I remembered why I thoght we were Americans: I was grenadier

[Navo]

There is nothing wrong with the gamemode, if your team was capped out that quickly (On Beirut, of all maps...) the problem appears to be that your team simply was really, really, really bad.

[Joker86]

There is nothing wrong with the gamemode, if your team was capped out that quickly (On Beirut, of all maps...) the problem appears to be that your team simply was really, really, really bad.

The enemy team consisted by 60-70% of a single clan.

And even if my team was really really bad. A single player can't really influence the general course of a battle, so that kind of "they deserved it"-attitude is inappropriate...

[WeeD-KilleR]

A single player can't really influence the general course of a battle

Oh you will learn really fast. I have seen player taking out FOB completly alone and changing the game in a second with this impact.