Suggestion for SF changes

[kingoffrost]

I as much as anyone enjoy the SF class. That being said I've read several pages about the role of SF and checks and balances for it. I know enough to see how one could both make a case for keeping the class in and dropping it all together.

Having said that and given the way the game is set up and played I think it would be easier to change the class from SF to basic rifle man, not a grenader as the current rifle man but rather a basic infantry that has a good run speed, normal armor, grenades, smoke, and a M4 with a 4x acog optic. "Why a M4 with a 4x optic?" you ask because in realistic setting most squads will have a DM "designated marksman", but in game play terms it keeps a mid range sniper available to people out side of the "kits" arena but the M4 is not powerful enough to have any but a very good sniper from getting one shot kills. In addition, since this new rifle man will be stuck at 4x zoom, haveing the M4 will permit him to go spray and pray should he find him self in a CQB situation, with out the current irratation of haveing people letting loose full auto threw a reddot scope.

I believe SF to be a very fun class, but at the current level of this game it's really nothing more than a CE on scout detail. If people really want to pretend that they are part of the SAS, or SEALs let them play Vanilla Special Forces, untill the PR guys get around to modding that as well. SF troops IRL don't attach to regular infantry unless they are acting as an observer for a forgien unit, however SF units will pick up some regular infantry to help them on their own missions if it's deemed viable. My last reason for changing the SF class to a DM is this; the Marines don't have SF persay they have SF capable units and they have Recon (who do primarly that recon) past that most Marines who want to be badass operators join the SEALs or jump branches.

I am in no means an expert in military Spec Ops, however I do know these certain things because I watch educational television (ie. history, discovery, and the news) if this game is to revolve around US Marines battling various forces from around the world then we should treat them as such. The AT, Rifleman, Med, and CE are all very true to that idea. I love the idea of making snipers into kits, as a well trained sniper is few and far between. However most squads in the military have a man as their Designated Marksman, just as they have a SAW gunner, or a Grenadier.

Thats my answer to the SF problem, switch him over to a DM and give him a weapon that allows for mid range shots but not for CQB percision full auto. Make him like all the rest just with a small area of expertice, and chuck the parachutes all together and give the DM rifleman a grappling hook.

example of DM loadout:
Designated Marksman
M4 w/ 4x only optic
beretta 92s
4 grenades
4 smoke
1 kabar
1 grappling hook
armor
tracers

And as an option since the military still uses claymores maybe drop one with a remote detonator on this rifleman something that will allow for ambushes of troops and light troop transports, with out being an instant kill as the current mines are.

Those are my thoughts to the Devs, everyone else bash away I don't care this was a serious suggestion.

[SGT.Collado]

I think they should get rid of the Anti-personal rifleman class and give it as designated marksman. It should use the M16A4 which is the special M16 with the scope and the handle like the SCAR. It is totally realistic because the Marines use it. Anyways, I enjoy Spec Ops a lot and I would actually like to see suppressed weapons for spec ops (MP5, M4, etc. suppressed). This would be better nice to have silent snipers and spec ops working together very stealthfully. Of course, MEC don't use suppressed guns so you could leave the HK53. I'm imagining myself in Mashtuur City Night being dropped by little bird and gunning down foes with the MP5 suppressed.

This would add some teamwork because they all have similar skills.

[Viper5]

Collado, im not sure where your info is coming from but the M16A4 is standard issue, its like the A2 just with easier configuration mounts. Scopes, etc. are all addons

[Maistros]

US would get M4 9mm w/ Integral Suppressor Mod
Other factions would get MP5.SD-6

These should only be in limited special operations kits or well hidden drop kits in some maps.

Also, kingoffrost, Special Operations units do work in collaboration with regular units on a frequent basis. It's called interoperability. They do support missions to aid in the greater campaign of the regular units. IE: Seizing or destroying enemy assets like airfields, vehicle depots. They also go deep cover to take out or capture enemy leaders.

I personally don't think Special Operations belongs only in some SF mod or SF itself. Special Operations units are just a part of a realistic battle as is any other. They work hand in hand to support each other.

See my related post, here:
http://realitymod.com/forum/showpost.ph ... stcount=37

[kingoffrost]

Add on to my above suggestion

Or instead of changing the SF class just change the M4 to a 10 inch barrel and supress it only dumb down the DMG to that of a .22LR cause that would be realistic, it would cause the SF players to dump a full mag to kill one man, and would make everyone else happy.

I'm really tired of half the people latching on to one class and the begging the Dev's for upgrades to that class, and the rest of the populas complaining about all the people useing that class.

yeah I ranted but I did make a suggestion

[kingoffrost]

I'm not saying that SF and infantry never work together, I'm saying for the purpose of the game, since there are no commo towers, or supply depots to be nixed, it would make sense to simply remove the SF class and use something that isn't quite so whorishly attractive to noobs or cheap players.

and I read your thread thats the reason I'm posting this one. Your ideas for a kit for SF aren't bad I just think that the current SF would be better changed to a DM.

[Maistros]

Actually we're working on a few new game types that would be perfect for a better suited SpecOps unit in this game. The M4 will also be a lot less appealing in the new release.

We also just recently implemented the M14 for the DM class.
See this thread here:
http://realitymod.com/forum/t13163-us-m ... p-m14.html

Designated Marksmen generally use the M14 with a scope, and in urban combat, a suppressor.

[Maistros]

only dumb down the DMG to that of a .22LR cause that would be realistic, it would cause the SF players to dump a full mag to kill one man, and would make everyone else happy.

Actually that wouldn't be very realistic at all. Using a suppressor doesn't dull it's damage. It's still a bullet. It will still kill you if placed well. The only effect a suppressor gives a projectile is a slower velocity. Usually resulting in no exit wound. It does not effect it's lethality or it's accuracy. It just keeps you isolated to the noise you make and the screams of your victims, though short.

[kingoffrost]

thank you for showing how much you know!!!!

It's not the suppressor that gives that damage its the short barrel. If you guys spent any time actually researching, these Dev cycles would be so much faster. A 5.56 (M4) round fired out of any thing shorter than 16 inch barrel does not achieve sufficiant volocity to be effective in a combat situation. In basic it means that a large number of the SF community in the Middle East found that it required a sufficiantly larger number of rounds to down enemy combatants while useing short barreled M4's, couple that to a aditional decrease in volocity from the silencer and you have the equivalent of a .22LR

prehaps some of you people who talk so much should look into reading some on ballistics.

[Mongolian_dude]

No way.
We already havea fine ammount of DM on the teams. unlimited would be the worste thing you could do to PR right now. Where its at its flourishing stage, where we are having problems with new players and an influx of Nilla lovers. I''l garentee you the most used word in any BF2 tag is SNIPER in one form or another.
Basicly, we will get poeple who like to play this mod because you can kill people quicker.(they seem to chose UMSC spec force quite often) and their second choise is sniper.
An example is a question someone asked on a server today.
"which is the best gun?"
theres anotherone to the pile

At around 3AM GMT, the teamplay and overall quality of play, for me, falls by at around 150%. More spec op kits are seen in double quantity. Tks are at an all time high. People Fight to the death to get hold of viechles they cant use more than ever.

Right now, the spec force is the new support. Remember how many people used to chose it? WHen i come face to face with a M4 round a corner, he tends to dive to his stomach and spray like crazy, just like most with the M429, back then.(not that they need to prone dive). I swear, the M4 now has a faster rate of fire than the M429, is more leathle round for round, more accurate less recoil. ITS THE M4292!!!.

Just limit it.

...mongol...

[Figisaacnewton]

Spec Ops? Stupid kit concept. Should be something like "point man" or "guy with carbine" It should just be an alternate to the standard rifleman kit, with a full auto but slightly less accurate weapon (due to what should be greater recoil).

AP rifleman also bad concept in retrospect. Claymores just don't work so well in pr it seems.

I say make the ap rifleman into a requestable kit so clayomres dont die, and use the new space to split the engineer into 2 sections

1 would be a combat engineer with shotgun, frag nades and a few slams,
2 would be something dedicated demolitions expert with the c4, landmines and a rifle.

[WNxKenwayy]

thank you for showing how much you know!!!!

It's not the suppressor that gives that damage its the short barrel. If you guys spent any time actually researching, these Dev cycles would be so much faster. A 5.56 (M4) round fired out of any thing shorter than 16 inch barrel does not achieve sufficiant volocity to be effective in a combat situation. In basic it means that a large number of the SF community in the Middle East found that it required a sufficiantly larger number of rounds to down enemy combatants while useing short barreled M4's, couple that to a aditional decrease in volocity from the silencer and you have the equivalent of a .22LR

prehaps some of you people who talk so much should look into reading some on ballistics.

Shut...up. The M4/M16 perform exactly the same in combat. Bullet velocities, barrel lengths, whatever, doesn't mean jack all. The M4 is used more because its lighter, shorter so it doesn't catch on things in houses/vehicles, and adjustable stock.

How about this. Go join the army, do a year long deployment in Iraq or Afganistan, and come back okay? Because then you will be able to tell me what I just told you.

And for your information, a supressor slows down the excess gas escaping from the muzzle so as to reduce the sound of the gas escaping. When the physics is worked out, it results in a ever ever so slightly less bullet velocity. But the idea that it would matter jack all in combat is idiotic. Yes, it sucks that we have to use 5.56mm but we do. As such, we are taught "body body head" Which is 2 to the chest, 1 to the head (winning hearts and minds). And a supressed M4 round to the chest is plenty enough to make an insurgent stop what hes doing.

[GeZe]

Which is 2 to the chest, 1 to the head .

Random fact of the day:
This is known as the Mozambique Drill, though it usually refers to using a pistol

[Thunder]

the SF guy should be a CQC trooper arming him with a X4 scope would put snipers out of a job.

i love the idea of the AP class, but half the time you got to sit there and wiat for the battle to come to you.
just because people dont use doesnt mean its a bad kit


edit.

i just read your load out again and my god is a over powering class
like i said with a X4 scope he would put snipers out of a job.
put 4 frags and 4 smoke aswell thats more that 2 other classes combined

then grapling hooks and armor.

this kits is a pure go any where pwn any thing class, would make even rambo weep.



as for the reason spec ops is in the game well be started off as a throw back to DC armed with a mp5 and was ace at clearing out buildings. then the mp5 sucked so he got a carbine and shiny C4 and was still good at killing infantry but also armor with the C4.

then he kind of popped into bf2 as a jack of all traits character to help new people feel awsome and for 9 year olds to blow up commanders assets.

and hes just kind of floated around as a recon type guy since.

[WNxKenwayy]

Random fact of the day:
This is known as the Mozambique Drill, though it usually refers to using a pistol

Hm, didn't know that. Thanks.

[GeZe]

Hm, didn't know that. Thanks.

You wonder, how it came to be know as the Mozambique Drill. Hmm...

[Daedal-Rogue]

Meh could toss the M16A3 in there for kicks too and make it so everyone has a full auto rifle

Nah, I think some adjustments and it'll be fine. Its the same for all the weapons they're in a period where tweeking and balancing will make the game better, as for me working in the gaming industry I see this stuff happen all the time and then the compensation is too far making the tweeked item worthless for awhile and no one uses it. Then its balanced back, you gotta find the middle ground.

[nickvel]

Viper5']Collado, im not sure where your info is coming from but the M16A4 is standard issue, its like the A2 just with easier configuration mounts. Scopes, etc. are all addons

it depends who you are looking at. Since its the marines yes, u are correct. MY buddy who is currently deployed said there are 2 m4s in his platoon for pretty much "designated marksman". However, in the army depending on what ur MOS is a lot of people are getting m4s atleast those deployed to combat zones. But since its marines in PR, my post is pretty much worthless. oh well.

[Mongolian_dude]

Ah screw it.
Give all the USMC classes that currently use the M16 the M4.
however, change the M4(i know its being changed currently) so its not so dam good. Make it realistic here people. Just give everyone what they would have and the corrosponding ammount of ammo.
Does everyone have a side arm in combat?
If so, put them in. Get it right, get it real.
If some things are unbalanced, who cares. If its unbalanced RL, make it in PR too.

Obviously some things cant be done because of engine restrictions, so level things up in terms of scale. example, the high a plane would normaly fly-the hight a plane flies in PR. The range of a Grail in RL- the range of a Grail PR.

...mongol...

[nickvel]

Ah screw it.
Give all the USMC classes that currently use the M16 the M4.
however, change the M4(i know its being changed currently) so its not so dam good. Make it realistic here people. Just give everyone what they would have and the corrosponding ammount of ammo.
Does everyone have a side arm in combat?
If so, put them in. Get it right, get it real.
If some things are unbalanced, who cares. If its unbalanced RL, make it in PR too.

Obviously some things cant be done because of engine restrictions, so level things up in terms of scale. example, the high a plane would normaly fly-the hight a plane flies in PR. The range of a Grail in RL- the range of a Grail PR.

...mongol...

well everyone doesnt have a side arm, saw gunners do most officers do, and of course SF carries whatever the hell they want.... u should have to have a certain amount of points to be SF, ie proficient in everything else to get SF and then u should be able to customize your kit. Just an opinion... ( im sure its been brought up before but oh well)