Click Click Click!

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-23 21:13

In Rainbow Six: Raven Shield -- it was possible to place claymores at certain locations.

First of all, the claymores came with a detonator, is that realistic or did they just come up with that?

Second of all, when you clicked "fire" to blow up the claymore, your guy had to tap the button 3 tabs.. made a CLICK CLICK CLICK type sound.

By tapping it 3 times, it gave the enemy time to jump back behind a corner if they saw the claymore in time. But is that realistic? (im doubting it, lol)

DAWG · Post by **DAWG** » 2005-09-23 21:28

The claymore I believe is capable of manual detonation using a hand device, it can also ( as is ) be set up to auto detonate using several different trigger mechanisms. I to would like to see the claymore with a manual detenator, at least in one of the kits, perhaps the engineer could have an anti personel kit as his 2nd option, it would be nice to let the first few members of an attack pass before blowing away their reinforcements and cutting them down in a hail of hot lead.

Hoss · Post by **Hoss** » 2005-09-23 21:46

Dawg you *******! Whats going on man? Good to see you sneaking around

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-23 22:14

DAWG wrote:The claymore I believe is capable of manual detonation using a hand device, it can also ( as is ) be set up to auto detonate using several different trigger mechanisms. I to would like to see the claymore with a manual detenator, at least in one of the kits, perhaps the engineer could have an anti personel kit as his 2nd option, it would be nice to let the first few members of an attack pass before blowing away their reinforcements and cutting them down in a hail of hot lead.

Thanks for the info.

How about the 3 clicks? In other words, requiring the soldier to click the detonator 3 times before it blows for safety. Is that true or made up in raven shield for gameplay purposes?

Post by **requiem** » 2005-09-23 22:20

Even if there are 3 ticks, that wouldn't save you. Claymores are certain death within 50m, high chance of death within 100m and severe injuries within 150m.

DAWG · Post by **DAWG** » 2005-09-23 22:28

Hoss wrote:Dawg you *******! Whats going on man? Good to see you sneaking around

I took the long walk for a while. The fact that vanilla BF2 is shit ( along with other things ) kept me away from the game for a while, as you know I have been keeping an eye on PR for some time and when they released the mini mod and mentioned a tournament which would include the British forces I just had to come out of retirement. Hope everything is well in your life, I imagine you clocked up quite some miles on the bike this summer. Good seeing you around look forward to getting in country again and catching up with some of the guys.

It's a pitty the PR team don't have a community TS, some of the guys in the forums have some nice ideas and it's always nice to put a voice or personality to the posts.

Cya round

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2005-09-23 22:30

Artnez.com wrote:Thanks for the info.

How about the 3 clicks? In other words, requiring the soldier to click the detonator 3 times before it blows for safety. Is that true or made up in raven shield for gameplay purposes?

The M57 firing device or "clacker" is for real. In fact, nowadays it is usually the only method of operation for the Claymore that US soldiers train for, except those in Korea. This is because of US policy in regards to the Ottawa Treaty on anti-personnel land mines.

As for three times, I believe that is for real, too. Though I am not sure if that is a mechanical safety feature to prevent accidental detonation, or just a habit that soldiers are trained to get into to make sure it isn't misfiring.

Evil Koala · Post by **Evil Koala** » 2005-09-23 22:35

If you really wan claymores to be realistic, then deploying them would take a lot longer. Unraveling and concealing the firing wire, placing and aiming the claymore, arming the mine, testing the M57 Firing device with an M40 test set, then finally detonate the mine.

As for the firing tree times for it to detonate, its somewhat false. It only requires one click, but in training we're trained to call out "CLAYMORE CLAYMORE CLAYMORE!" and then detonate.

Here's a bit from the manual;

"9. Fire the mine
a. Remove the dust cover from the firing device and firing wire
b. Connect the firing wire to the firing device
c. Position the firing device safety bail in the FIRE position
d. Actuate the firing device handle with a firm, quick squeeze
e. Assume a prone position behind cover
Note: The mine is most effective when employed against targets 20 to 30 meters in front of it."

...funny how it says to assume the prone position after you fire the mine

Post by **requiem** » 2005-09-23 22:36

Evil Koala wrote:...funny how it says to assume the prone position after you fire the mine

Guess it's no fun when you're not getting hit by shrapnel

Eddie Baker · Post by **Eddie Baker** » 2005-09-24 04:05

Evil Koala wrote: As for the firing tree times for it to detonate, its somewhat false. It only requires one click, but in training we're trained to call out "CLAYMORE CLAYMORE CLAYMORE!" and then detonate.

Interesting. I've seen footage of a breacher opening a door with a silhouette charge and I saw him slap the firing device three times. The manual also said only one squeeze of the clacker, too.

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-24 09:38

Here's the reason I brought this topic up in the first place.

Right now, we have some interesting problems with C4 and claymores.

Claymores
When playing as a sniper, I decided to experiment and see how far claymores can really go in vanilla BF2 and PRMM. The results were the same for both... devastingly powerful.

I used claymores as an assault tool. Whenever an area was more or less swarming with enemy forces, my team tried to stay back as to not get killed. What I ended up doing was rushing into the swarm of enemies (about 8-10 infantry) and placing claymores directly in front of them and ran off. Within seconds I had 5 kills.

I then retreated back to my support gunner -- who, lucky for me, was doing his job -- and restocked on claymores. I then ran directly for the enemy spawn and placed claymores in such a way that they are bound to run into it one way or another. I had 3 kills followed by another 2.

I ran quickly to a supply create and restocked again. Placed the claymores again. Restocked. Etc. Etc.

I ended up finishing first in the round due to my kill amount. It was completely ridiculous. I would go everywhere our friendly force wouldn't (to avoid TK) and placed claymores in the most likely areas that enemy forces would pass.

I call this claymore spamming.

Obviously, this isn't how this is supposed to work.

If PR would be kind enough to make claymores have a detonator, they would be used for their intended purposes:

- Initiate an ambush.
- Create a trap.

I really dont think that, at the scale we are playing here (64 player max), that setting up a claymore farm to defend 6 alleyways (2 claymores per sniper, 3 snipers, for example) is good for gameplay.

Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy who actually uses claymores. I'm not biased, I would love for the sniper class to be powerful... but this just gives the sniper an unrealistic infantry advantage if he knows how to use claymores correctly.

Specops/C4
I decided to see how far I could take C4... and, once again, the results were devastatingly powerful.

At the beginning of every round in Karkand (as USA), I would spawn at the US main and litter a jeep with C4. I would then jump into the hummer and steer it to the right-most side of the map. I would then go over that large cliff right next to US's right spawn and head onto the railroad tracks. From the railroad tracks, I would drive to the 2 bridges connecting the pair of land masses.

More often than not, by the time I got there, a tank was crossing (if not, they were crossing the river.. same timing.. same thing). I would ram the tank that was crossing -- effectively eliminating their strongest anti-tank support. By doing this consecutively (about 3-4 times), I pretty much eliminated their armor presence, giving my team dominance. I would take different routes every time and try to predict where the tanks would go next so that I could sneak up from behind in my c4-rigged HMMV. When we took the first few flags, it was even easier because I had alot more room to maneuver and alot more trucks to work with.

As MEC, I tried the same thing. Same results. I packed the van up with C4 and headed towards the US main. Once again, I didnt take the most direct routes. My personal favorite was driving up the left side of the map (from MEC point of view) and circling behind the building & fence obstacle that was at the foot of the US hill. I would end up running directly into a couple of APC's and tanks.

I just sound the horn to get their attention (i want them to kill me) and ram them. If I dont explode from the impact of the hit, I will explode when they try to shoot me.

At one point I took out a fully manned tank, a full APC and 2 infantry -- resulting in 9 kills. No skill. Just place c4, drive into, rinse, repeat.

Another vicious tactic that I tried was actually placing the c4 on the front of tanks and APCs. Whenever I would get into an armored fight, I would drive directly at the enemy while shooting. If it was evident that I would lose the fight, I would ram the enemy tank/apc and take them with me.

And the conclusion...
I know this stuff seems obvious and most of you have probably seen it done a million times (probably drove you to these forums more, lol). I really wanted to break things down because the text took me 1 1/2 hours to perform.. and.. believe it or not.. it wasn't fun at all. In fact, it sucked as that type of gameplay doesn't excite me at all.

The conclusions I drew from this are:

1. Claymores should not act as AP mines. They should act as device triggered explosives used for traps and setting off an ambush.

2. For both claymores and c4, the fire button needs to be pressed 3 times in quick succession to detonate. If that's not possible, a single click will trigger the '3-click' animation after which the c4 or claymore will detonate.

This will force three things:
- Give the enemy half a second to escape the primary blast leaving them with heavy injuries. This will prevent people placing c4 or claymroes at control points and detonating them when the control points go neutral. It will force you to look after the traps that you set and add the element of "skill" in choosing the right time to blow your load

In real life, people don't place c4 or claymores and walk away, leaving them unattended. If they aren't watching the c4/claymore, they atleast know that the enemy will be arriving within a few minutes.

- If someone is trying to ram you with a truckload of c4 and doesn't succeed. He might try to jump out and click the detonator manually in fear that you might shoot him through the front glass (effectively preventing the explosion of the c4). This will give the tank/apc the extra seconds it needs to kill the enemy.

- The cool 3-click animation/sound is always freaking cool.. no matter how good/bad the animation/sound is. "click-click-click-BOOM".

3. Although C4 should detonate when a truck holding it explodes, as it does in real life (i'm assuming..only logical) -- it should atleast be scarce. I dont know how you guys are planning to deal with C4. All I can say that, as it is now, C4 is a ridiculous weapon that is used like your traditional pineapple grenade. Throw and blow.

Mad Max · Post by **Mad Max** » 2005-09-24 11:33

C4 is very stable stuff and doesn't tend to explode if it's shot, burned, rammed with a massive force... well almost anything. The only way it explodes normally is with a detonator. You could put a lump of C4 next to one with a detonator (not touching, say a few ft away) and detonate one and the other will not explode. At least that's the idea. It's great stuff and easy to move because you know there's a very very low chance of accidental BOOMS if it gets shot or something.

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-24 14:42

Mad Max wrote:C4 is very stable stuff and doesn't tend to explode if it's shot, burned, rammed with a massive force... well almost anything. The only way it explodes normally is with a detonator. You could put a lump of C4 next to one with a detonator (not touching, say a few ft away) and detonate one and the other will not explode. At least that's the idea. It's great stuff and easy to move because you know there's a very very low chance of accidental BOOMS if it gets shot or something.

Thanks for the info.

In that case, it's only logical to remove the "explode on impact" effect if you crash into someone.

As a matter of fact, there are alot of wierd things like this in BF2.

If you place a mine and die... it will explode after some time, not just disappear. So if an enemy infantry is just standing around it and it explodes after some time you will get the kill.

JoW · Post by **JoW** » 2005-09-24 15:49

Artnez I would basicly agree that all explosives that are placed in this game is stupid, not because its to powerfull but because of the pace of the game is to high.

In a realistic situation you would never have had the time to run in and throw claymores at people. So if PR does their job right with game pace this problem will go away all together since you will die before you can do such things.

As for snipers hiding out covering their exits I think its still good mainly because when a infantry soldier pop up a sniper will have next to no chance to defeat him. So having a way to cover your back is more a nesessity because you spend alot more time handling a sniper rifle than a automatic rifle.

I think the most important features needed are

-> Walk (Allways on)
-> Jogg (Fatigue goes down slow)
-> Sprint (Fatigue goes down fast)

As for the claymores there should be 2 modes selectable, 1 triggered for the tactical situations based on helping your team. And 1 tripped mode for when you basicly just need to cover your own ***.

Artnez · Post by **Artnez** » 2005-09-24 18:22

JoW wrote:-> Walk (Allways on)

I agree with everything you said, but the above quote caught my eye more than anything else.

I really do hope they add the walk feature. Too often do i want to slow down to make less noise and get a steader aim when clearing in CQB, only to bring up my clumsy sights.

Sights are good, but in CQB... i think a burst should do the trick, even if shot from the hip