"Civillians"

CAS_117 · Post by **CAS_117** » 2007-06-14 06:56

Look, I sort of like the use of civillians in Albasrah, but it gets almost rediculous as to the sort of things that the civillians are allowed to do without being apprehended. A day ago I played as a civillian and the sort of behavior left me scratching my head. There were literally wave rushes into enemy positions with civillians trying to draw fire. At first it was funny, but then it got just... stupid is the only way to describe it. We would be pinned down ona roof and then a dozen civillians and three insurgents pour out of a door. There is no way that couldn't have been any less than suicide. But lets forget gameplay and move onto common sense. In combat, when there are people trying to kill you, why would you allow an enemy to gather intelligence to better accomplish that? During the initial encounters with the fedayeen Saddam in Iraq, if "civillian" personell were caught acting in a suspicious manner, they were apprehended, questioned and for the most part prevented from continuing. For example when the USMC First Recon arrived in Al Anbar, they routinely were shelled by mortars. They quickly found out why. Some "non-combatants" were seen with binoculars and radios several kilometers away. The sniper teams killed them until the mortars stopped. This is the rule, not the exception. Since the enemy was intentionally hid$ing amongst civillians, in plain clothes, and was a clear threat to the safety of the soldiers, they were given clearance to fire. The men were not repremanded, and the kills were officially "hostile". I'm not saying that we should have a comitee to discuss each civillian fatality, but I really think that the punishment is disproportionate to both the crime and to reality.

Here is my suggestion, civillians which are close to insurgents should not be punished as severly, if at all for their most likely intentional deaths. Suppose that if a civillian is killed further than 10-20m from an insurgent, it could be considered intentional, and punished appropriately. Because if a civillian is running apace during an infantry charge, even Michael Moore would have pause before condeming (Well probably not). Possibly the code for the old rally point system where you needed 3 squad members in proximity may still be of some use. This would no longer give any incentive for civillians to purposefully use themselves as human shields, and would give more of a reason to be used as a diversion and intelligence gathering method rather than an infantry screen. This isn't to say that hiding amongst the population should be discarded, but insurgents need to use civillians more... inteligently. Finally, is it possible to give the british a civillian kit? This would make for some interesting intel gathering techniques.

A-10Warthog · Post by **A-10Warthog** » 2007-06-14 07:09

DarkTalon · Post by **DarkTalon** » 2007-06-14 07:22

I agree with both suggestions, I would love a british civilian, however i have no idea how it could be accomplished.

Silvarius2000 · Post by **Silvarius2000** » 2007-06-14 07:44

Perhaps as you said... Civilians lose their Civy status if they are in close proximity with an insurgent?

El_Vikingo · Post by **El_Vikingo** » 2007-06-14 07:46

.... knife?

Ps. LMAO @ "Insurgents and WWII Weapons"!

.:iGi:. Greg · Post by **.:iGi:. Greg** » 2007-06-14 07:48

As this is a reality mod, why would there be a British Civilian in the middle of a war zone? Disregarding news reporters etc, you would not find a basic civilian in the middle of the fighting, least of all one that throws rocks.

I do like your idea about not punishing so severely if a civilian is close to an insurgent, but don't civilians in some places like Iraq do the sort of things you mentioned above? Such as hide the enemy, disrupt troops etc?

DarkTalon · Post by **DarkTalon** » 2007-06-14 07:50

I think he means a local civilian who is collaborating with British forces.

daranz · Post by **daranz** » 2007-06-14 07:55

Well, in real life, you don't really get civilians running towards the British gunfire so that they might get accidentally hit, therefore getting the British in trouble... Civilians in PR do that all the time, running in the lines of fire so that they get killed.

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-06-14 08:18

Well now, stop killing them and find out, where the insurgents are hiding...

Hmm, if you think, that wasting 10 tickets will save you from enemy fire, if you snipe the guy on roof...its worth sometimes, but mass genocide makes baby Jesus cry

Post by **eggman** » 2007-06-14 08:37

All sounds like it's a bit gamey and needs some work... but er.. the metaphor of a civilian population intermixed with an insurgency is one that requires that the pace of the agressor (Brits in this case) slow down and be more cautious.

No current plans to change any aspect of this.

A civilian population embedded Special Forces (aka Civilian) is a possibility but we'll sort out the initial issues first. Lots of other possibilities but we'll take it in some small steps and no over-react to initial feedback. If anything I'd like to add more civvy clases

Long Bow · Post by **Long Bow** » 2007-06-14 12:55

I admit that PR civillians are playing a bit dirty. However the attempt here is to recreate an insurgency hidden in a city. The PR city has a population of 32 people max. IRL you would have masses of civillians with a small percentage of insurgents mixed in. It would be much more difficult to spot insurgents and there would be way more civillians to blend in with. We don't have that luxoury in PR obviously so the civillians have to be played in a much more overt manner. IRL civillians wouldn't be rushing soldiers but when fighting broke out there would be chaos and people running everywhere. Soldiers wouldn't have it as clean cut as they do in the PR world, green shirt hold your fire, everyone else engage with lethal force. The example given stating the civillians aiding the insurgents via artillery spotting explains this a bit. Obviously the soldiers came under fire for some time and had to do some scouting to asses the situation. It would not have been instant, pull up, get out, "look civy's with binocs" --> mortar round "shoot them" done deal in minutes.

I for one would love to see some complex rule system in place surrounding engaging civillians like the one posted. However that sounds like a good deal of codding to be done. If I had a choice between insurgency mode with the current civillian rules vs. no civillians I would pick the "with" option

ArmedDrunk&Angry · Post by **ArmedDrunk&Angry** » 2007-06-14 13:10

Finally, is it possible to give the british a civillian kit? This would make for some interesting intel gathering techniques
I can hear the music now, this is why the dual uzi's and MAC10.....

Bond, we have a mission for you .....

El_Vikingo · Post by **El_Vikingo** » 2007-06-14 13:18

Emo civies for you Emos out there, black straight hair, converse instead of nike, and some heavymetal t-shirt.

Darkpowder · Post by **Darkpowder** » 2007-06-14 13:18

More civvie classes great !

I can't understand how it is so difficult for people to deal with civilians in Al Basrah, if they come and charge me with one or two insurgents, any half decnt sniper/marksman can deal with the insurgents, and hells, i'll just knife charge the lot of em

Quick deployment from fast vehicles easily makes for quick "arrest" teams, and with good voice, you can surround and flank civilian troublemakers cutting off their running-escape.

More Civvie classes:-

Reporter... - Killing a civilian or this one within a certain proximity of him gives more than usual ticket loss. This is the promise for Popa of a combat cameraman class. Could be given soflam instead of binos.

Criminal - Comes with a knife, for more of a surprise. - worth twice the intel value when captured. Killing him is less of a points penalty.

Paramedic - Comes with x2 no. of Medical Dressings also is more costly to the allies if they kill him rather than knife him.

SocketMan · Post by **SocketMan** » 2007-06-14 13:26

A spy kit sort of speak,
anyway just a thought...

Ecko · Post by **Ecko** » 2007-06-14 13:32

lol, I would love to be a reporter

El_Vikingo · Post by **El_Vikingo** » 2007-06-14 13:33

Darkpowder wrote:
Criminal - Comes with a knife, for more of a surprise. - worth twice the intel value when captured. Killing him is less of a points penalty.

OMG!!! Assasins!! Cool!!

That would be an insurgent without rifle, tbh.

BetterDeadThanRed · Post by **BetterDeadThanRed** » 2007-06-14 13:39

101 bassdrive · Post by **101 bassdrive** » 2007-06-14 13:50

why not give the brits a blackwater militia kit.
they could kill civis without hesitation nor timepenalty and would get badass expensive superduperguns and SUVs

"Civillians"

"Civillians"

Have a civilian limited kit for the Brits