the new sound in vehicles

Post by **77SiCaRiO77** » 2007-09-20 01:51

isnt it a bit ................erm.....unrealistic?

i has driving and apc and i wastn able to hear my own engine , then i was hited , but i didnt hear ANYTHING, in fact , i just note that i was hited because when i turn the turret i saw smoke , is that realistic ?

are the devs planing a hotfix or something , or this is how its gonna be until 0.7?

Doom721 · Post by **Doom721** » 2007-09-20 02:00

The new sounds that muffle the loudness of engines are nice, it just needs a little tweaking - as for being hit...

Yeah I noticed that as well, I took hits from tank shells in a helo on kashan ( Yeah Yeah I know I wasnt flying! ) and no real hit sounds

Thats the only real issue, and the fact it sounds like your falling with your clothes flapping in the wind when your moving in an air vehicle lol

Post by **sofad** » 2007-09-20 02:08

we are testing out the problems with the impact sound when inside a vehicle right now.

Tweaky · Post by **Tweaky** » 2007-09-20 02:20

While I like the approach for having an enclosed realistic feel in most of the vehicles and aircraft (and in efforts to help VOIP communication), I think PR is sacrificing far too much, and going just a bit too far in regards to 'realism'.

After trying the vehicles, I foresee many problems. I'll break it down into general vehicle type:

1) Tanks:

Not hearing any motor sound in any of the internal seats is bad, you should be able to hear RPM changes to know if you can climb a hill, or just subliminally know you are moving.
Not hearing your own gunfire is another problem. You don't want your men to think they are shooting blanks
Being hit by an enemy tank is not heard at all. Are you really thinking that an armor piercing round will not be heard by its crew when it hits their tank? As far as I know, tank crews can at least faintly hear the surface beneath them that the tracks are on. Any thing hitting the tank with massive force would surely be heard from the inside.
Turret rotation noise should also be heard from the inside.

2) Helicopters:

The engine is right behind the pilot for crying out loud, there has got to be some kind of whining or motor noise back there. Perhaps rotor blade noises aren't heard so much, but the equipment is loud from inside... all aircraft are like this.
Not hearing the missiles and cannon fired from the gunner is a pain too. When the gunner fires a TV missile, you cannot see the missile very clearly in the apache, so you don't know when to turn away after a gunner fires. I guess this is the job for delayed VOIP communication from the gunner to alert the pilot.
Not hearing bullets hit the hull is also bad.
Not hearing RPM or any kind of motor cues makes flying an aircraft very dangerous. Pilots don't fly without noise, and if they do, they have instruments to show them what the engine is doing... yet BF2's 'throttle' is just a silly 'progress bar' and not true RPM.
Not hearing any other aircraft around you is also very dangerous. You don't know your surroundings, you cannot be alert by hearing... say a Blackhawk or enemy helo next to you.

3) Fixed-Wing Aircraft:

The engine should at least be heard via RPM vibrations or hissing/purring of some sort. While jet engines have sound directed towards the rear and pilots don't hear from the front (because if a jet is coming towards you, it is nowhere near as loud if you face the rear), they do at least have tactile feel through a little bit of sound and vibrations. This game doesn't have tactile feel, so we have to rely on sound.
Same points (on helos) about not hearing own bullets fire, bullets hitting hull, RPM instruments, etc... all apply for aircraft too. Even though pilots wear very restrictive head equipment (or just headphones) + a cockpit enclosure, sound can still be heard overall.

------

In summary, the game now lacks tactility or audible cues that help you on the battlefield immensely. NOW, the game is like playing with a bunch of deaf soldiers, and even makes the gameplay far less interesting and 'action-packed'. If you are in a firefight with any piece of equipment, you WANT to hear it! You need to know your surroundings, and at least hear something. Overall, almost completely muting the vehicle sounds to a point where only 2-4% of sound can only be heard (which also requires that people crank up their volume, which is not desired at all) is just wrong. I play racing simulations (sound obviously 10x more important in these games), and recently working with one simulation on it's sound testing and development. We were attempting cockpit muffling, and while you can hear a lot still in a car, there is noticeable cues that an engine is on, gearbox in play, suspension moving, or when the transmission is whining. The same should apply to these military vehicles. You should still hear purring, whining, howling... whatever it may be... it is all in there. You aren't completely dumbed down to a point where you can't hear anything, that is just impossible with any modern day equipment we have. Not to mention, I would think some MEC equipment would be louder inside

The sound is one reason I vouch for this mod, and now it is gone?

The easiest way to go about this is just to muffle the sound we had in .609, and make some exceptions here and there with regard to hearing or not hearing a certain sound. One that still hasn't changed is vehicles being hit by enemy projectiles... in PR it is always dead quiet, and the red alert signal is not always helpful or immediate. Hearing the sound of bullets/shells hit you it you would immediately improve reaction time to counter-attack, take cover, or evasive action. I highly doubt the military would sit on the battlefield completely dumbfounded as bullets hit them.... of course they know they are being shot at, lol

.

Post by **KingofCamelot** » 2007-09-20 02:36

You make some good points Tweaky, although be aware that the impact noises are not acting as intended, and are being tested right now, so in the future they'll be fixed.

Also, something to keep in mind is that crews of modern tanks, helicopters, jets, etc, are wearing headphones for communication amongst the crew, etc. In today's world I'm pretty sure those are noise canceling headphones. That means that you get a muffled cockpit environment, plus the fact that the crew is wearing noise canceling headphones. In real life they want as little outside noise as possible, to prevent communication issues.

Tweaky · Post by **Tweaky** » 2007-09-20 02:46

I know, just making some points with respect for keeping a video game playable... in terms of proper feedback. That is VERY important to have in a fighting game.

Because playing a video game muted is so mellow and boring. PR already isn't intended for the impatient, so making more heavy restrictions just loses game enjoyment. I am sure you guys will adjust it accordingly

I just don't want to see this game get so deep into realism that 'realism police' start stepping on our toes here. Already been in that situation with one racing simulation I play... and trust me, those fans have a nasty, ever-increasing habit of swearing by ultimate realism and downplaying any other game that technically IS better in some realistic approaches, even if their own holy game isn't very good. A 'realism wart' grows on them so to speak.

At least you guys are using this as a test.

Killjoy · Post by **Killjoy** » 2007-09-20 05:05

Why doesn't the team test before the release of an update and what not? I'd much rather wait another month+ even, for a tested updated and mostly fixed one, instead of one I'll be waiting for the next update to fix the first update..

Tweaky · Post by **Tweaky** » 2007-09-20 05:08

I am pretty sure they test before any release... unless they have a very unusual development style. Which I doubt is the case, seeing how many devs and testers there are

Post by **Rhino** » 2007-09-20 05:10

Killjoy wrote:Why doesn't the team test before the release of an update and what not? I'd much rather wait another month+ even, for a tested updated and mostly fixed one, instead of one I'll be waiting for the next update to fix the first update..

same reason why we are not going to not release the mod before we had done everything, like FH2 for example.

and yes we do alot of heavy testing before each release.

Surround · Post by **Surround** » 2007-09-20 05:18

I'm trusting all the changes the devs make. They know what they are doing and it's their mod

Post by **KingofCamelot** » 2007-09-20 05:59

Killjoy wrote:Why doesn't the team test before the release of an update and what not? I'd much rather wait another month+ even, for a tested updated and mostly fixed one, instead of one I'll be waiting for the next update to fix the first update..

The tester team is getting torches right now and heading for your house.

We sent about 5 different builds to the tester team to be tested, fixing something more every time. Unfortunately some minor issues like this sound thing slipped through. You can't catch them all.

However, if you think you can, you're welcome to apply for the testing team.

Post by **dbzao** » 2007-09-20 06:07

But with that attitude....

Post by **KingofCamelot** » 2007-09-20 06:31

[R-DEV]dbzao wrote:But with that attitude....

I said he's free to apply.

Not that he'd necessarily get accepted.

Post by **fuzzhead** » 2007-09-20 08:35

Agreed that hearing incoming and outgoing rounds should be much louder.

disagree that you should hear footsteps, the swaying of grass, wind etc.

disagree about engine noises.

i think it is SOOO much better that i can hear my fellow crewman now that the tank engine sounds arent so ridiculously loud. this has improved my tanking experience 100%, now its so much more easier to communicate.

Post by **Falkun** » 2007-09-20 08:41

Totally, no more asking your fellow crewman to repeat what he said or trying to guess what he said. This change also puts a greater emphasis on having infantry support/a third crewman for your tank in order to protect your tank from enemy infantry.

Post by **Psyrus** » 2007-09-20 08:46

[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:Agreed that hearing incoming and outgoing rounds should be much louder.

disagree that you should hear footsteps, the swaying of grass, wind etc.

Agreed, as it's insane right now that I can be lonewolfing in a tank (the best, and only way to use tanks :razz

and using the turret... hear footsteps coming up behind/next to me and swing the turret around and kill the engineer who just about had an assured kill 3 seconds ago...

Ever feel like that tank was hacking/has eyes in the back of his head? Wrong! He just had high quality headphones on

[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:disagree about engine noises.

i think it is SOOO much better that i can hear my fellow crewman now that the tank engine sounds arent so ridiculously loud. this has improved my tanking experience 100%, now its so much more easier to communicate.

I agree on this point wholeheartedly... just yesterday I had a squadmate with less than perfect voice quality, and before I patched up he was inaudible, whereas afterwards we got in the same squad and I could (just barely now) make out what he was saying.

Work out the kinks snd you'll have another change for the best! Great work devs!

Oh also big props to taking out the crewman wrench... SOOO annoying to get a tank on fire, only to have it retreat behind a small incline and repair itself up

Post by **Outlawz7** » 2007-09-20 08:48

[R-DEV]KingofCamelot wrote: We sent about 5 different builds to the tester team to be tested, fixing something more every time. Unfortunately some minor issues like this sound thing slipped through. You can't catch them all.

I should be teh_testerz too, because when I got the new patch, I found a bug in 10 minutes of playing on LAN

When you fire a HEAT round from the tank, the voice says "Sabot Up" when it should only say that, when done loading the new round.

When firing Sabot rounds, it's fine.

Post by **Dunehunter** » 2007-09-20 09:00

Another thing to take into account is the difference between testing and actual play. Being on a server with 64 people is a lot different from testing something with 10 people, with probably less lag etc.

Things like this slip through, but they'll be fixed in the next update I'm sure.

krekc · Post by **krekc** » 2007-09-20 09:10

[R-DEV]fuzzhead wrote:Agreed that hearing incoming and outgoing rounds should be much louder.

disagree that you should hear footsteps, the swaying of grass, wind etc.

disagree about engine noises.

i think it is SOOO much better that i can hear my fellow crewman now that the tank engine sounds arent so ridiculously loud. this has improved my tanking experience 100%, now its so much more easier to communicate.

Agree! I think it's really improved in the helo's as far as communication goes, haven't had a go in the jets yet, but the a-10 was deafening..

Red Halibut · Post by **Red Halibut** » 2007-09-20 10:14

IMHO The engine noises are just about right, although I would support a slight increase in their volume just because we lack other forms of tactile feedback.

Flying the Apache last night was just about perfect for cockpit noise, but as has already been suggested, being hit and firing weapons need to be upped.

It's worth remembering that noise-cancelling headphones work by averaging out the background sound, and therefore will NOT tend to cancel out short sounds with a high attack. Thus the sound of the engine is muted, as are any other constant whirs/drones, but bumps and bangs tend to be muted only by the amount of attenuation that the headgear provides, and not by the active system.

I have to say I REALLY like the direction you're going in with the sound and I make these comments in the spirit of constructive feedback.

Edit: References http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noise-cancelling_headphone