Scoped Rifles, Ammo and General Mechanics

General Fuct · Post by **General Fuct** » 2008-01-04 03:16

I was reading through the change list as I downloaded the new version and I loved the sound of the new resupply rules in relation to ammo, it sounded so fun and epic, massive fire fights were people were out-of/running-low-on ammo. I noticed that the even Rifleman class was split to encourage people to use non-scoped to provide ammo to their squad, good idea in theory, on my server poor idea in practice...

There is no need for more ammo on my server because every player goes Scoped Rifle and one-shot/few shot kills. Generally you will die before you can even expend 2 full mags. The scoped rifles need to be limited/removed from rifleman kit! They are a marksman rifle with 30 rounds! Our server last night degenerated into camping high buildings with scopes and just getting as many kills as possible FOR YOURSELF. Teamwork went out the window.

(I have heard the argument on a few occations "You'll find most modern rifleman will atleast have an ACOG scope." this is simply not true. I've been to Iraq and the Yanks there were carrying around the old M16A2s with iron sights and 'sweetFA' equipment.)

Does anyone else have this 'Scope-Fest" style of play going on in their server?

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2008-01-04 03:36

Well, not to ignore the rest of your post, but at least your server had a problem with TOO accurate of rifles!!

(don't take that as a personal attack, just something I noticed that made me smile inside... it was nice to see someone NOT complaining about a LACK of accuracy)

Hmm, I guess thats true, but all the youtube videos I've seen [Paper Soldier OkitaMakoto reporting for duty, sir!] consist of rooftop marines/army just firing at distant targets. And you said you've been there, so I'm not about to argue with you. I'm not an idiot

I guess its better than running all over the place... but I agree, If we could get them to do it[hunker on top of a rooftop and secure an area] as a SQUAD it'd be great!

That's just my opinion. I kind of like the fact that more squads are hunkering down and holding a location as opposed to constantly moving...

But yes, individual soldiers, in any way shape or form, is kind of a downer on servers. Especially if it's your entire team.

General Fuct · Post by **General Fuct** » 2008-01-04 03:49

I think the accuracy settlings in the version are great, because NO ONE can shoot dead straight 30 rounds in a row!

Squads on rooftops would of been a game mechanic, people in squads just to spawn closer to their own personal roof to get kills didn't really feel useful or team-orientated.

I can't speak for all units over there, but the ones we worked close to in Talil had **** gear. Obviously all the gouchi gear went to 'higher funded' units. Do an image search for G3 scoped and you'll find they all have bipods on them AKA Marksman Rifle!

ANYWAY the whole point is I want long winded firefights!!! Bullets landing all around you, running low on ammo and taking over while popping up and down - when the whole other team has scoped rifles and just pop you off while you try to use suppressing fire with your iron sights WHAT IS THE POINT? Might as well grab a scoped rifle and image how good it would be if everyone just had iron sights (except snipers and marksman of coase

)

*Prepares to Mauled by the Scope Fiends*

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-01-04 03:52

Not everyone can go out and get killed, ideally we would all run out of ammo eventually. Things like grenades, LATs, HATs, and bandages are definitely in short supply (as they should be), and having rearming points allows them to be used effectively.

For your standard rifle with optics, ammo is not generally a problem. But when you're playing as a militiaman on Fools Road, trying to keep the brits off your back when they have significant advantage over you with their optics, it helps to know you can suppress them with hot lead without having to worry about having to knife them later.

Doom721 · Post by **Doom721** » 2008-01-04 04:47

It is true, there will always be a base kit a lone wolf will prefer, or a base kit that is the most suitable for the general masses...

Assault back when it had ammo/GL - Horrible!
Rifleman in .6 - Still a very "self sufficent" kit for infantry
Spec ops in .4-.6 - CQB spray much?

Now it seems everyone takes the scoped rifleman, because well, when you don't know what your squad needs, and your going generally infantry....

I will admit the scoped rifles, assault rifles I mean, should be less accurate and harder to fire - because its a scoped rifle... should be more twitchy I would suppose , but I'm no expert

General Fuct · Post by **General Fuct** » 2008-01-04 05:51

Doom721 wrote:It is true, there will always be a base kit a lone wolf will prefer, or a base kit that is the most suitable for the general masses...

Assault back when it had ammo/GL - Horrible!
Rifleman in .6 - Still a very "self sufficent" kit for infantry
Spec ops in .4-.6 - CQB spray much?

Now it seems everyone takes the scoped rifleman, because well, when you don't know what your squad needs, and your going generally infantry....

I will admit the scoped rifles, assault rifles I mean, should be less accurate and harder to fire - because its a scoped rifle... should be more twitchy I would suppose , but I'm no expert

Pretty Much Spot On.

Silvarius2000 · Post by **Silvarius2000** » 2008-01-04 06:54

Actually from what I understand the Marines in Iraq generally dont get fancy ACOG sights but mostly rely on iron sights or Aimpoints. The ACOG sights are reserved for SAM (Squad advanced Marksmen)where they'd use the M16A4 with attached ACOG. I really think the scoped rifles should really be a privileged class rather than a Handme down for everyone to use.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2008-01-04 07:09

Once the excitement wears down, they'll be less common. I used them the first couple rounds just to see them in a pub server, and now Im back to being whatever the SL needs. Give it time, just like every other little thing about .7

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2008-01-04 07:59

Seems like the deviation is fine and it's hard at times to kill guys...especially on the move. When I see guys getting mowed down it's usually because 3-6 guys are shooting at his ***. I've seen unprecedented teamwork in 0.7...sure lots of guys are missing out on that BUT if you do it, then your squad can be extremely deadly from a defensive position if the other guys are crossing open ground etc. I like this though and think it's great. I really don't see the scopes as a problem and HIGHLY doubt the dev's will limit them down. Whats wrong with having 2 well equiped armies go at it? In a massively important battle, non-urban especially, I bet you'd see A LOT of ACOG's in the Near-Future setting of PR.

BLUFOR-73 · Post by **BLUFOR-73** » 2008-01-04 09:12

the biggest problem for me in pr is the recoil. why is exaggerated so much? i mean i have no problem with the accuracy it doesnt matter really but it starts to be ridiculous when you cant put subsequent rounds at a target without having to pull down the mouse 10 feet.

when im in a prone supported position i should be able to burst the g3/m16/m4 without the barrel climbing to the sky. thats why i mostly fly attack helos/transport helicopters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmm_Fjf9F00

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2008-01-04 09:20

BLUFOR-73 wrote:the biggest problem for me in pr is the recoil. why is exaggerated so much? i mean i have no problem with the accuracy it doesnt matter really but it starts to be ridiculous when you cant put subsequent rounds at a target without having to pull down the mouse 10 feet.

when im in a prone supported position i should be able to burst the g3/m16/m4 without the barrel climbing to the sky. thats why i mostly fly attack helos/transport helicopters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmm_Fjf9F00

Yeah the recoil does seem to be exxagerated a little. The Burst fire still seems pretty useless unless its CQB spraying. I'm pretty sure the burst firing is relatively effective within 50-100 meters. As it is now, only the first shot would be effect...there just so much climb. I like the G3 recoil's ratio vs. the 5.56 family but all of them could probably use a reduction as long as it's spread across equally. Be nice to be able to use the 3rd burst.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2008-01-04 11:11

m16 is fine imo, but its the g3 thats a bit over done. And Id normally be one to say "pull down on your mouse more" but I really think it's a bit strong...

Meh, no complaining here

though, admittedly, I havent played much as the MEC in .7, so Ill give it time before i really start whining

FISHMAN69 · Post by **FISHMAN69** » 2008-01-04 12:43

i didnt like 0.6 cause of the super accurate scoped assault rifles.

in 0.7 it got better cause of loss of accuracy but the scopes are still there.

the purpose of an assault rifle is engaging targets up to 300 meters not further.
the standard assault rifles in this mod dont get fabricated with incorporated scopes cause there is no need for it.

only marksmen should have scopes on assault rifles.

the only reason why u are seeing riflemen in iraq with scopes on their assault rifles is cause what they are doing is not called war,so they are not standard riflemen in a standard war.

if we wanna stay realistic the only countrys with scoped riflemen should be england and USA on al basrah style of maps and fools road/assault on mestia style of maps.
cause thats not really a war where many troops get deployed to fight.

P.S.
nobody carries 8 clips + 1 in the weapon,that would be 270 rounds (if 1 clip has 30) and that would be aproximatly 3,5kg,thats silly.

rifleman should have 4 clips +1 in the weapon.

General Fuct · Post by **General Fuct** » 2008-01-04 16:05

FISHMAN69 wrote:i didnt like 0.6 cause of the super accurate scoped assault rifles.

in 0.7 it got better cause of loss of accuracy but the scopes are still there.

the purpose of an assault rifle is engaging targets up to 300 meters not further.
the standard assault rifles in this mod dont get fabricated with incorporated scopes cause there is no need for it.

only marksmen should have scopes on assault rifles.

the only reason why u are seeing riflemen in iraq with scopes on their assault rifles is cause what they are doing is not called war,so they are not standard riflemen in a standard war.

if we wanna stay realistic the only countrys with scoped riflemen should be england and USA on al basrah style of maps and fools road/assault on mestia style of maps.
cause thats not really a war where many troops get deployed to fight.

P.S.
nobody carries 8 clips + 1 in the weapon,that would be 270 rounds (if 1 clip has 30) and that would be aproximatly 3,5kg,thats silly.

rifleman should have 4 clips +1 in the weapon.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said ^_^
Iron Sights are for real men

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2008-01-04 17:50

FISHMAN69 wrote: P.S.
nobody carries 8 clips + 1 in the weapon,that would be 270 rounds (if 1 clip has 30) and that would be aproximatly 3,5kg,thats silly.

rifleman should have 4 clips +1 in the weapon.

Lol we have a soldier here for sure, how long was your tour in iraq?

Soulja · Post by **Soulja** » 2008-01-04 17:56

BLUFOR-73 wrote:the biggest problem for me in pr is the recoil. why is exaggerated so much? i mean i have no problem with the accuracy it doesnt matter really but it starts to be ridiculous when you cant put subsequent rounds at a target without having to pull down the mouse 10 feet.

when im in a prone supported position i should be able to burst the g3/m16/m4 without the barrel climbing to the sky. thats why i mostly fly attack helos/transport helicopters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmm_Fjf9F00

Notice how much energy went into him even when he had a rest for the rifle?

I think that the scoped rifles should have a bit longer aiming time to simulate having to line up the scope and should have to aim after firing to stop the 10 rounds one after the other headshotting people. The assault rifles should also have a lot of bullet drop after 300m or so to prevent people from using them as sniper rifles.

nedlands1 · Post by **nedlands1** » 2008-01-04 17:56

FISHMAN69 wrote:P.S.
nobody carries 8 clips + 1 in the weapon,that would be 270 rounds (if 1 clip has 30) and that would be aproximatly 3,5kg,thats silly.

rifleman should have 4 clips +1 in the weapon.

True about the clips. no one uses them anymore as they tend to use STANAG magazines. I'm not sure about the amount of mags a soldier would carry though.

VipersGhost · Post by **VipersGhost** » 2008-01-04 18:01

I think a normal loadout is around 300rnds. Lets remember that PR is war. No one is going to showup to a fight with only a few mags worth of ammo. Soldiers don't shoot at enemies the whole time...they establish fire superiority through massive amounts of ammo being dumped toward the enemy's position. If you were in a prolonged fire fight...even with 300 rnds you'd need resupply.

FISHMAN69 · Post by **FISHMAN69** » 2008-01-04 19:33

VipersGhost wrote:I think a normal loadout is around 300rnds. Lets remember that PR is war. No one is going to showup to a fight with only a few mags worth of ammo. Soldiers don't shoot at enemies the whole time...they establish fire superiority through massive amounts of ammo being dumped toward the enemy's position. If you were in a prolonged fire fight...even with 300 rnds you'd need resupply.

like i said before not every map in pr simulates an open war with another country.
so the best thing to do is changing the soldiers equipment for every kind of conflict.

the normal loadout for a rifleman equipped with an 5.56mm assault rifle is 150 rounds.

the most ammo eating situations are citys/villages where u can find cover almost everywhere,and in that situations MGs,rocket launchers and hand grenades are the best way to eliminate targets.
so there is no real purpose to give a standard rifleman 300 rounds.

and plz dont stick to that "i need that ammo for cover fire" slogan cause cover fire with assault rifles is almost only used by soldiers who panic or got in a bad situation cause they didnt followed their orders.

Post by **OkitaMakoto** » 2008-01-04 19:53

FISHMAN69 wrote: and plz dont stick to that "i need that ammo for cover fire" slogan cause cover fire with assault rifles is almost only used by soldiers who panic or got in a bad situation cause they didnt followed their orders.

So PR's strive for cover/suppresive fire was a complete waste? Good to know