Weapon Damage and Recoil

General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.
BloodBane611
Posts: 6576
Joined: 2007-11-14 23:31

Weapon Damage and Recoil

Post by BloodBane611 »

Image
So the above values mean:
Weapon: Self explanatory, but these are the 5 primary rifles
Recoil: This is the amount of kick that you see on your screen, defined by a range of up/down and left/right values.
Velocity: Speed of the projectile in m/sec (I believe)
Damage Armored Body: The amount of damage that will be inflicted on a target person hit in the torso with the weapon at 200 meters of range or less. For the G3 it is at a range of 400 meters or less.
Damage Limb: Same as above, but for a limb hit.
Vs Militia: Militia use "poor body armor", so take 30% more damage than regular body armored individuals.
Vs Insurgent: Insurgents do not use body armor (except for cell leaders, who are in the Armored Body category above) and so take 70% more damage than regular body armored individuals.
Deviation: These are the minimum deviation values for these weapons. So no matter how long you sit there, this is the limit of how accurate they will be.


So the data says a few things:

The G3 has the highest recoil, the longest effective range (as far as power goes), and the highest damage. It is the only weapon that will kill in 2 hits.

The AK is the next most damaging weapon, but it still requires 3 torso hits to kill an someone. It has about 50% greater recoil than the 5.56 weapons.

The M16A4 and L85 are almost identical. They have 1/3 or less of the G3's recoil, meaning they are much more controllable. This shouldn't be news. They take 3 torso hits to kill.

The QBZ-95 is the middle brother of the primary rifles. It has does more damage than the 5.56 rifles but has slightly more recoil, and it will still take 3 torso shots to take down an enemy soldier. It is the only weapon with single, 3 round burst, and automatic, which makes it the most flexible of all the primary rifles.



Lessons to take away:
With the G3, unlike the other rifles, it is not necessary to go for the headshot. 2 bodyshots can be speedy and still kill your target. Also, they will start bleeding after you put one round into them, and your rounds hit at full value out to 400 meters, whereas the rest of the rifles lose damage above 200. With the G3 range is your friend, and carefully aimed distance shots from this rifle will give you the upper hand over the higher controllable rate of fire the smaller caliber US and GB weapons have. At this point it is imperative that you avoid close combat if possible. Grenades should be used to clear buildings, and smoking an enemy position before getting in close will help you gain the advantage. Use short bursts and control your sight picture when scoped in, or use short controlled bursts from the hip. Using this weapon in CQB takes some skill, this is one of the only weapons ingame that needs a serious amount of practice to be competent with.

The AK-47
is the bottom of the barrel as far as weapons go. It is almost useless for more than one aimed shot in a row, as the recoil occludes your target behind the sights. It doesn't have high enough damage to kill faster than the 5.56 rifles, and you don't have the optics to compete with the other factions. This weapon should be used in close on full automatic , firing from the hip. For distance shots set to single and carefully line up your shot. If you don't do damage or make them run in the first round or two, they will almost certainly be able to find your position and make short work of you. This weapon is for CQB work, and if you are using it avoid getting into gunbattles at more than 50m. In CQB it can also be effectively controlled in automatic mode from crouching or prone, but while standing your target is quickly occluded.

The M16A4 and L85
are both extremely controllable and accurate, but require 3 torso shots to take down a target. For those who have not yet mastered these weapons, the key is to change tactics depending on range. At long range you must aim for headshots. At close range you will mostly be fighting against people with high recoil, high damage weapons. That means keep moving, and use burst/automatic to put as many rounds in them as you can to make up for your low damage. You need 3 shots to the torso in order to get a kill. Against the MEC movement is key, as they will have a hard time using scope view to track you, and unscoped the weapon is very challenging to control. Against insurgents the best tactic is to use your optics from long range, as very few insurgents are going to have an optic. Up close the same move and shoot tactics you use against the MEC are going to be most effective.

Finally the QBZ-95
. It doesn’t have significantly more power than the 5.56 rifles, so you’ll still need 3 shots to put someone down. At medium-long range this is effectively equal to the L85 and M16A4, so if you get in a long range duel with them you better get the headshot first. Up close the tactics for this are basically the same as for the 5.56 rifles – speed keeps you alive. Remember that you will only be facing people with rifles similar to yours, and using tactics similar to yours. That means in order to be an effective Chinese soldier you need to be better than the guy you’re facing. At ranges of 0-20 m using burst from the hip is the most effective tactic, as you will need to put out enough rounds to get 3 body shots, 3 limb shots, or a headshot. A very effective tactic is to burst while aiming at your enemy's torso, as the recoil will take the second or third round and put it right in their face. Automatic fire can be useful for suppressing and, if desperate, in close.

In summary
Using the American, English, or Chinese rifles you need to rely on your high rate of fire and decent midrange accuracy. Aim for headshots from range, use burst or auto when in close. These weapons lend themselves to suppressing fire because of their low recoil, and this can be very effective as long as you are working with your squad to exploit the suppressing fire. If you are carrying one of these rifles your best bet is to be moving fast and utilizing your high ROF to balance out your low power.

Using the G3, you need to get range and carefully control your shots. You can make short work of anyone at range as long as you hit them twice. To kill an enemy infantryman with the G3 should only take 7 seconds max. In close the G3 takes a great amount of skill to operate, the only way to be effective is to practice and get used to its muzzle climb. This is not an effective suppressing weapon, as it is not controllable, and only has a 20 round magazine. This weapon is at its best when you are crouched/prone, and is a very powerful defensive tool. Moving slow and aiming your shots well is your best bet with the G3.

The AK is really poor, both because of low damage and bad sights, and has no advantages over the the 5.56 weapons you will face with it. Carefully aim your shots, and realize that to maximize this weapon's abilities you must be prone/crouching, and at relatively close range. This is also not an effective suppressing weapon, as it has high muzzle climb. Use auto to kill baddies in close, and single fire to harass/snipe. This is an ambusher's weapon, use it in close where they don't expect it, then move. Without the element of surprise you will not win gunbattles using this rifle.


*Note about the Chinese/US/GB rifles* Overall these weapons are very similar, so if you want a class of rifles to work on this would be the class. Every map uses at least one of these rifles, and they are so similar that by getting good with one you will also get a better feel for the others.

*Addendum to Note*
I plan on adding a comparison to the 0.613 weapons sometime soon, but I really should be doing schoolwork right now.
Last edited by BloodBane611 on 2008-01-15 03:10, edited 1 time in total.
[R-CON]creepin - "because on the internet 0=1"
Deadfast
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 4611
Joined: 2007-07-16 16:25

Post by Deadfast »

Thanks.

I find it a bit weird that QBZ has lower damage than M16 although it uses slightly bigger caliber (on the other hand in exchange for a bit smaller gun powder amount) and has, yet again slightly, bigger muzzle velocity.

I think it should be at least equal to the M16.
GeZe
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 3450
Joined: 2006-02-09 22:09

Post by GeZe »

Why does the QBZ-95 have lower damage then the M16?

The 5.8x42mm round it uses weighs 4.1g, with a velocity of 930m/s.

Thus the energy is 1773 J

The 5.56x45mm round the M16 uses weighs 4.0 g, with a velocity of 925m/s.

Thus the energy is 1712 J

Shouldn't the QBZ-95 damage be more then the M16?
Deadfast
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 4611
Joined: 2007-07-16 16:25

Post by Deadfast »

Exactly
Jonathan_Archer_nx01
Posts: 327
Joined: 2006-12-22 12:42

Post by Jonathan_Archer_nx01 »

5.8x42mm was made to be cheap/easy to produce rather than deadly. So it doesn't fragment like 5.56x45mm.
Anyway, I like it as it is.
But how do you know that the amount of hitpoints is 100?I thought it was less. Also, there are armored/unarmored targets, aren't there?
Deadfast
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 4611
Joined: 2007-07-16 16:25

Post by Deadfast »

You seriously don't want to start about 5.56 and its fragmentation when Kenwayy is around.
Sabre_tooth_tigger
Posts: 1922
Joined: 2007-06-01 20:14

Post by Sabre_tooth_tigger »

The m16 tumbles and fragments upon impact? Does the QBZ-95 round do that
Grand_maneuver
Posts: 29
Joined: 2007-12-20 21:10

Post by Grand_maneuver »

All spawnable kits should have body armor, though limited kits like specs/pilot/crewman - I'm not so sure if they have or not, so thinking about who got body armor and who doesn't isn't relevant unless ofcourse you want to be a enemy knowing terminator.

Hitpoints are 100, or so i was told, can't remember where sry :)
Also field dressing healed 20 points, (orsomethinglikethat)
So if you have a ammo bag you can basicly be your own medic if you are bleeding,
cause ammo bags were tuned up in patch, now you can resupply 3 field dressings - 2 rockets for LAT, hell even a new fresh ammo bag! <-- which makes completely no sense :)

Anyways, Bloodbane611 nice information you got there.
Maybe next thread you can explain why my head functions like a magnet for incomming bullets.
GeZe
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 3450
Joined: 2006-02-09 22:09

Post by GeZe »

Grand_maneuver wrote:All spawnable kits should have body armor, though limited kits like specs/pilot/crewman - I'm not so sure if they have or not,
All requested kits 'have' body armour as when you pick up a kit, you keep the same body, and it is in the body which body armour is defined.
Jaymz
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 9138
Joined: 2006-04-29 10:03

Post by Jaymz »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY[/youtube]

@ your graph with regards to the QBZ95 projectile. The 580_42_cqb variant is what the QBZ95B uses. The QBZ95 uses the 540_42_g projectile and hence does 39 damgage
"Clear the battlefield and let me see, All the profit from our victory." - Greg Lake
77SiCaRiO77
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 4982
Joined: 2006-05-17 17:44

Post by 77SiCaRiO77 »

now that make sence .


PD: love that vid :p
willgar
Posts: 185
Joined: 2005-10-26 15:54

Post by willgar »

Usefull post - thank you :)
Waaah_Wah
Posts: 3167
Joined: 2007-07-26 13:55

Post by Waaah_Wah »

Those stats must be wrong... I've died from a sinlge shot from G3, and QBZ multiple times when i had full health. And to you smartasses yout there; no it wasnt a headshot
Never argue with an idiot, he will just drag you down to his level and beat you by experience ;)

Killing for peace is like f*cking for virginity

I :33_love: Jaymz
BloodBane611
Posts: 6576
Joined: 2007-11-14 23:31

Post by BloodBane611 »

**** Jaymz. I got scrubbed.

Thank you for setting me straight.

I was misled into thinking that chrif_type95 was the infantry version.
DOH! Better reading next time.
Those stats must be wrong... I've died from a sinlge shot from G3, and QBZ multiple times when i had full health. And to you smartasses yout there; no it wasnt a headshot
I imagine Jaymz would have said something if I had missed anything else crucial, like the fact that getting shot in your left big toe has a 15x modifier like your head does. But I am not an expert, I'm an amateur who knows very little about the engine.
Last edited by BloodBane611 on 2008-01-14 02:01, edited 1 time in total.
[R-CON]creepin - "because on the internet 0=1"
Sneak Attack
Posts: 574
Joined: 2006-12-31 00:14

Post by Sneak Attack »

i wish the G3 wasnt so inaccurate in this game that it doesnt work at long range like intended to...
Image
Death_dx
Posts: 379
Joined: 2007-11-09 21:37

Post by Death_dx »

[R-CON]GeZe wrote:Why does the QBZ-95 have lower damage then the M16?

The 5.8x42mm round it uses weighs 4.1g, with a velocity of 930m/s.

Thus the energy is 1773 J

The 5.56x45mm round the M16 uses weighs 4.0 g, with a velocity of 925m/s.

Thus the energy is 1712 J

Shouldn't the QBZ-95 damage be more then the M16?
I really think if you were shot with both you wouldn't know the difference. 61 Joules is pretty insignificant, I mean even if you were doing a straight ratio of m16 energy to qbz energy, the damage increase would only be 37 for qbz. It doesn't seem to effect combat much though, so guess it's irrelevant.

Also how about increasing the G3 accuracy and lowering the damage, it's kind of annoying how you can be shot only once with a G3 and you'll bleed to death unless you have a medic/another field dressing.
GeZe
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 3450
Joined: 2006-02-09 22:09

Post by GeZe »

If we take M16 damage values [(1712 J): 36] as a base, the rest of the damage values should be (calculated by energy)

G3 (3352 J): 71 - currant damage is 55
QBZ-95 (1773 J): 37 - currant damage is 39
AK-47: (2016 J): 42 - currant damage is 42

As you see, AK-47 damage is exactly the same as currant, no complaints. QBZ-95 damage should be slightly lower. But the big thing is G3 damage, it is seriously underpowered. It now has realistic recoil, so I see no problems upping damage to more realistic levels.
Last edited by GeZe on 2008-01-14 05:41, edited 1 time in total.
BloodBane611
Posts: 6576
Joined: 2007-11-14 23:31

Post by BloodBane611 »

I'm totally with you there GeZe. If we're going to realistically represent the G3 recoil (which admittedly is quite high in reality) we should also get the cause of that energy - a higher power round. It's not just the highest power round, it is so by quite a margin. Currently PR does not reflect this balance well.

I would say G3 accuracy is fine, just up the damage. Not 1 hit kill, but 71 is a nice number, and it will immediately make infantryman have to stop and seek medical attention, even if they do kill you first. It will also give the G3 a fighting chance in CQB, which it doesn't have now.

I did a recalculation using the G3 as a base, I guess it's a workable alternative as well:
G3-50
AK-30
M16-25.5
QBZ-26.4

So all the primaries would take 4 shots to kill except for the G3, which would take 2. In your set of values it would be 3 for all primaries but 2 for the G3. I'm thinking yours is much better balanced.

Either way, I think there are really only 4 options:
1) Fix the G3 damage to make it higher
2) Fix the G3 recoil to make it lower
3) Nerf the other primaries
4) Flip us the finger (that would be mean, but I guess you could do it)
[R-CON]creepin - "because on the internet 0=1"
GeZe
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 3450
Joined: 2006-02-09 22:09

Post by GeZe »

BloodBane611 wrote:I'm totally with you there GeZe. If we're going to realistically represent the G3 recoil (which admittedly is quite high in reality) we should also get the cause of that energy - a higher power round. It's not just the highest power round, it is so by quite a margin. Currently PR does not reflect this balance well.

I would say G3 accuracy is fine, just up the damage. Not 1 hit kill, but 71 is a nice number, and it will immediately make infantryman have to stop and seek medical attention, even if they do kill you first. It will also give the G3 a fighting chance in CQB, which it doesn't have now.

I did a recalculation using the G3 as a base, I guess it's a workable alternative as well:
G3-50
AK-30
M16-25.5
QBZ-26.4

So all the primaries would take 4 shots to kill except for the G3, which would take 2. In your set of values it would be 3 for all primaries but 2 for the G3. I'm thinking yours is much better balanced.

Either way, I think there are really only 4 options:
1) Fix the G3 damage to make it higher
2) Fix the G3 recoil to make it lower
3) Nerf the other primaries
4) Flip us the finger (that would be mean, but I guess you could do it)
Image

And yes, I agree, using the M16 as the base damage is better then using the G3 as the base for the damage as otherwise damage becomes way to low (you could land an entire burst with the M16 on someone and they would live) and it also keeps the general balance (3 hits for others, 2 for G3)


Hopefully they will change it.
Locked

Return to “PR:BF2 General Discussion”