First impressions

LoganX · Post by **LoganX** » 2006-01-27 14:23

Hey people,
PRMM n00b here

(See my intro post)
I played last night for about 2 hours on the gloryhoundz test server. (Nice Maps BTW)

My initial impression have things that I like and things that I don't like so much (or just need to get used to). (Keep in mind that the maps I played were primarily ground fighting)

Things I liked:
Weapon Damage...across the board.
Finally...you don't have to empty a clip to kill someone. It's not always a 1 or 2 shot either. Feels realistic and balanced.
AT and armor weapons too. All feel great and work great. Requires ALOT of teamwork and tactics to get through a good armor standoff. Much less "Rambo'ing".
This to me is the core difference in this mod that makes it work.

Vehicle Decay.
Very nice for realism and immersion. Not too long to completely overcrowd areas of high traffic. (and they can be shot at to remove anyway)

Things that I didn't like (or just need to get used to).
Now, before I go into this I'd like to point out that to me these things are more "game mechanics (things that simulate RL situations and feel)" than "Gameplay Elements" (Weapon/Map/Class Balance, Damage, Etc)

CrossHairs (or lack thereof) (Tried to search on this and didn't get far)
My stance on crosshairs has always been this:
IRL when you shoot from the hip, although it is a much harder shot to aim, you have a 'feel' for the weapon and a certain degree of 'hand-eye' coordination that 'assists' you with your aim. This is what the crosshair does in an FPS. It simulates that 'hand-eye coordination' that you would have.
This is more of mechanic of the game than a 'realistic' gameplay element.
Even a small or med. sized (non diverging/static) circle would be better.
IMO the lack of the crosshair is actually hindering the ability play.
Now...with that in mind. I'm not saying that in unzoomed view the bullet spread needs to be better. It can stay the way it is or be greater for all I care. You would still want to encourage people to go 'zoomed' to get better aim. I'm all for that.

Health meter
Again...IMO it's a more of a 'game mechanic' than an essential 'gameplay element. IRL (although you don't have a meter in your eye) you have some idea of what your own status is.
Again, it's an ingame representation of a RL 'mechanic'.
IMHO removing it doesn't necessarily make the game more realistic, for some people it may actually make the game less immersive because now you have less of a 'feel' for your character.

Realize that any of my criticisms will always be as constructive as I can make them.
I've been gaming for over 10 years with a preference for FPS games and have been a BF player since 1942.
I understand and more than appreciate the need for a more realistic game than the core BF2. I just believe you don't need to sacrifice core game mechanics to achieve that.

Overall I think this is a good mod that improves on the gameplay of BF2.
IMO the gameplay is how BF2 should be.
Improved need for tactics & team play. Good feel for weapons and good damage.
Looking for some good times.

Logan

dawdler · Post by **dawdler** » 2006-01-27 14:34

LoganX wrote:Hey people,
IMO the lack of the crosshair is actually hindering the ability play.

I dissagree. All it does from a practical viewpoint is slow you down. Why? Because if you want, you can move about the entire level with your ironsight up. That is moving slow and decisive... RUNNING (dont forget that, you ARE running, not walking!) with the ironsight down will probably give little in the way of eye-barrel coordination.

Personally I just adjust to it and learn where the rough center of the screen is. When confronting people within 10m I dont need the ironsight even without a crosshair. If I fire on people like 50m+ away, I only need 2-3 rounds to zero in on them (but at that range you always use ironsight anyway). Good weapon placement (the 3D model) makes this go without a hitch (BFV for example had a little odd angles on the rifles if I'm not mistaken, difficult without a crosshair unless you changed it).

LoganX · Post by **LoganX** » 2006-01-27 14:45

As I said, these are things that I just may need to get used to.
My statements are based on 2 hrs of play and my long standing 'stance' on why crosshairs are in FPS game sin general.

RUNNING (dont forget that, you ARE running, not walking!) with the ironsight down will probably give little in the way of eye-barrel coordination.

Of course you can't aim for sheeite when your running, and the game is coded for that is it not? You still are better off going ironsight I agree.
Again, this is a first impression and I'm sure I can overcome it. I'm just looking to hear from the community.

Post by **Evilhomer** » 2006-01-27 15:05

I can see where Logan is coming from, even in the testing stages, I found it really dificult to play the game at first. However, when you realise that everyone else has the same problem, you get used to it until it becomes second nature. Removing the crosshairs stops people from running round a corner and firing at you in the chest.

Post by **Rhino** » 2006-01-27 15:19

'[R-DEV wrote:Evilhomer']I can see where Logan is coming from, even in the testing stages, I found it really dificult to play the game at first. However, when you realise that everyone else has the same problem, you get used to it until it becomes second nature. Removing the crosshairs stops people from running round a corner and firing at you in the chest.

i have no probs doing that without a cross hair, its just a reaction to point the gun in the right place (normaly the head) without even looking at a crosshair so i can "no scope" 80% of the time and kill somone 10m away from me doing that, maby 20

LoganX · Post by **LoganX** » 2006-01-27 16:16

Thanks for the comments.
Hopefully the more I play the more I'll get used to it.

On to something else.
What was the original thought on not having the health meter?

beta · Post by **beta** » 2006-01-27 16:17

you have some idea of what your own status is.

This one can take some getting used to (not so much for OFP fans ...) but I like it much better.

It changes your whole mentality while playing. You're not thinking "How many bullets can I take before I die?", you're more thinking "Better not get shot, or I'll bleed to death". The bleeding simulation helps out in determining your status, when you notice you are bleeding to death, you've only got about 2-3 minutes till your dead.

Maybe this should be looked into? I know bleeding is hard to simulate, but it takes 2-3 minutes to bleed to death, if a major artery has been severed, or if you've been shot multiple times in the chest, and have massive internal bleeding. After being shot in the shoulder (in PRMM, brings you to bleeding sometimes) you wouldn't bleed to death in 3 minutes ... maybe in 30 minutes.

Again, this is hard to simulate, I guess what I'm trying to say is, the "bleeding scale" should be added/adjusted. Say if your just on this brink of bleeding, at bleeding health -1, you would bleed out slower than someone who has 3 health left ...

Post by **eggman** » 2006-01-27 16:28

I don't miss the cross hairs. Any "real steel" shooting it's pretty rare to "fire from the hip". SAW gunners may tend to do it, but normal riflemen typically wouldn't in all but the most panicked of situations.

The health meter thingy is a bit wierd imo... I don't think it needs to be the bar thingy as in vanilla BF2, but perhaps something as simple as a small soldier pic on the HUD that changes color from green to yellow @ 60% to red @ 30% to help indicate what your health status is. It could even be as simple as a little square.. but I do think something to indicate health status is a useful tool to translate over the real life awareness into the game.

That said ... if there were other indicators that would be more immersive it would be better. eg: at 60% you move more slowly, at 30% your vision blurrs kinda thing.

Regarding the health meter for vehicles... I think it would be kinda cool that only an enginner class (or pilot class if one ever gets created) can see the health of a vehicle. All others would be "blind" to it - as it currently is.

Good first impressions. It's so early in the mods dev cycle that I am sure it will continue to evolve into what the community wants.

IMO at this stage the area that really could use help is around vehicle combat. Some stuff is way outta whack and plays ... better than BF2 .. but more like comparing a 25 cent coin op arcade game to a one dollar coin op arcade game.

egg

Post by **UK_Force** » 2006-01-27 18:08

LoganX wrote:Hey people,

I've been gaming for over 10 years with a preference for FPS games and have been a BF player since 1942.

Logan

Wow you must be really old then logan, didnt know computers where around then

Seriously though thanks for all the comments I can assure you these are all taken into account and discussed by all of the Devs. Also thanks for taking the time to do a small write up of your feelings - and put it in a "constructive" way.

My personal opinion is, that I agree that there should not be crosshairs, it just takes time to get used to. I also disagree with having a health meter, I think the bleeding is fine - it gives you the indication you need, also no health meter stops people being to "brave".

LoganX · Post by **LoganX** » 2006-01-27 18:31

'[R-DEV wrote:UK_Force']Wow you must be really old then logan, didnt know computers where around then

Seriously though thanks for all the comments I can assure you these are all taken into account and discussed by all of the Devs. Also thanks for taking the time to do a small write up of your feelings - and put it in a "constructive" way.

My personal opinion is, that I agree that there should not be crosshairs, it just takes time to get used to. I also disagree with having a health meter, I think the bleeding is fine - it gives you the indication you need, also no health meter stops people being to "brave".

I'm 36 and one the first FPS games I played was the first Doom in 1995.

When I was playing last night I didn't realize that the constant "grunting" from my character was the "bleeding". (I must have missed reading about that feature). Now realizing what that is it makes sense AND helps to give an indication of your health. I still think 'some' kind of indicator would be nice but I'll allow myself to play some more before I etch that in stone.

also no health meter stops people being to "brave".

Good Point. Again it puts a crimp in the whole 'Rambo' approach.

Jeeves · Post by **Jeeves** » 2006-01-27 19:20

Infantry health meter isnt as important as vehicle damage meter imo. In a vehicle you know where you were hit and have some sort of damage assesment. In this you only know you are low when you hear fire (and that is hard to do when other guns are going off). I dont like being in a helicopter and taking alittle fire and feeling like I need to go repair cuase I dont know if that small arms fire actualy hurt me or not.

I like the way the infantry health is right now, if you have a medic with your squad then he can basicly see when you need it and will throw it at you. I know that if I take 1 shot then I am dead with 1 more.

Cross hairs, it gives you much more than real life hand eye cordnation). When firing from the hip IRL you have a general idea, and with no crosshairs you have that same general idea. If you have crosshairs then you have a percise idea of where your rounds are going. ( kind of off topic but I did see my roommate nail a 2 liter bottle at ~75 yards with first shot from hip with a ak47.)

Resjah · Post by **Resjah** » 2006-01-27 20:50

Originally Posted by LoganX
I've been gaming for over 10 years with a preference for FPS games and have been a BF player since 1942.

'[R-DEV wrote:UK_Force']Wow you must be really old then logan, didnt know computers where around then

Originally Posted by LoganX I'm 36 and one the first FPS games I played was the first Doom in 1995.

lol thats not what UK meant, u said, " i have been BF player since 1942", so UK just made a little joke, maybe you just thought a bit too hard

LoganX · Post by **LoganX** » 2006-01-27 21:25

:d uh: :d uh: :d uh:
LOL...your right. I completely over thought that.

ops:

Post by **UK_Force** » 2006-01-27 21:39

mmmm ..... maybe I have a dry sense of humour ???

lol

sorry Logan it was there for the taking !!

LoganX · Post by **LoganX** » 2006-01-27 21:42

No Prob.
I should have seen it. I was so busy trying to make my own impression I was blinded.

goodgameral · Post by **goodgameral** » 2006-01-27 22:08

one thing that i thought of in ur post was the getting rid of health meter. In games like CoD 2, which are very realistic, for a game, they got rid of the health meter, and sort of put in that kind of system in a sense of it. In fact, the mod reminds me of CoD 2 alot.

Figisaacnewton · Post by **Figisaacnewton** » 2006-01-27 22:26

Always good to see a new player!

Anyways, my views: No crosshair is just about the amount of coordination you have w/o using the sights. Why? Because its the middle of your screen. I've been playing PRMM long enough now to be able to run around a corner and no scope someone because you get a feel for where it is. It takes practice and time, just like using a real weapon with out sights would.

The health meter... I wish we could have a simple color system like AA. You would be able to tell the difference between OK, ouch, and GAAAAH! That'd be enough for me. an exact health meter is useless in this mod anyways, because you can always figure that 1 bullet (ok some times 2) is going to kill you anyways.

Post by **CodeRedFox** » 2006-01-28 00:22

It would be nice to see the bleeding system use the black out effect more than it is. A nice shot the the chest with a heath of 30% you should black out for a sec and the closer to 0% you should blackout more...oh and grunt.

Post by **BrokenArrow** » 2006-01-28 04:49

I do like not having a health meter but I wouldn't count COD:2 as being overly realistic, they completely took away the whole idea of having a set amount of health.

GRB · Post by **GRB** » 2006-01-28 06:49

I know. I felt like a super soldier in COD2. You could get hit like 6 times, duck behind a berrel and magically regain all your health back, pop up and take 6 more shots! I beat that game in like 2 days. And that was after only playing like 2-3hrs each day...

Personally I don't see the neccessity of an type of health meter. If you're bleeding you know you're in need of medical attention. Knowing how damaged you are means next to nothing in a game that cannot accuratly simulate localized damage affects to the players perfomance.

What could you possibly gain from any type of health indicator? The bleeding should be all you need.

It's all about the realistic experience. Things such as a health meter have a negative affect on any realistic experience. In real life you know how hurt you are because A. You can Feel it, B. You can See it and C. Someone will tell you.

So far we simulated A. (bleeding) and we have C. (medics), so the only thing we lack is the ability to actually see the players wounds. Which is a game-engine flaw. But I think what we have now works perfectly!