Attack Helicopters

[DarthDisco]

Yes. We've all been here before, but with 0.7 and the changes that have been made to the way attack helicopters operate, I feel that the situation warrants a fresh discussion on the topic. First of all let me state my intentions: I do not intend to advocate turning the attack helicopter into the uber-killing machine that it once was. Nor do I want to see them put on every map because they are so "1337." On the contrary, I am very happy with the way in which the DEV team have made it essential for attack helo crews to co-ordinate with ground forces to be effective.

My aim in this thread is to draw attention to what I believe is still the major shortcoming in the development of PR attack helicopters, namely the unrealistic nature in which we as players are forced to use them in game to combat the overwhelming threat posed by anti-aircraft weaponry, armor, and rockets.

Currently the two most prominent attack helo maps are Qinling 64 and Kashan 32. In the latter map the most effective strategy for fighting with the Cobra or Havoc is to fly just below or just within the overhead cloud cover, wait for Laser Targets, and launch death from above. In the former map this is still the most effective strategy, although it is complicated by the presence of fighter aircraft. These aircraft, however, are often preferable to the dangers of flying within range of enemy ground forces.

As is well known, the modus operandi of modern day attack helicopters is far from that which we are employing here. US Army Apache pilots do not hover at 500m and launch their ordinance, they use the terrain as cover, pop up, fire, and duck down again. Currently, the threat that enemy armor poses to tanks makes this strategy non-viable in most situations, since a tank can, at most ranges up to 500m, take aim and fire at a Helicopter far faster than that helicopter would take to target and fire a rocket. [assuming that a laser target has not already been provided.]

Now, I do not claim to know what change in the game would overcome this unbalance and allow attack helicopters to operate safely at low altitude while still making enemy ground forces a clear and present danger. I only know that when I sit there hovering at 500m, I feel my sense of realism slipping away with each Hellfire I launch.


In addition, I have two minor points I would like to address.
1. The skyline on Qinling is far too bright and white, when flying above the horizon, one cannot even see the HUD in the pilot's position. Meaning that speed, altitude, and targeting direction are all useless.
2. The so called "FLIR" cam being used on attack helicopters is anything but. The system simply draws a black and white image of the game word. True IR camera technology is an asset for armed forces, it allows greater visual accuracy at night, and precise targeting with regards to heat sources, even during the day.

Tanks, Trucks and People should all stand out on the FLIR but instead they simply blend in to the background. I am not knowledgeable about the BF2 engine's ability to produce an actual IR effect, but if this is not possible then I would recommend that future attack helicopters adopt a full colour display, as seen currently in all 0.7 version tank driver stations. This is hardly a leap of faith as many modern attack helicopters already have HD TV cameras mounted on their noses in combination with the FLIR, the former is used primarily for daytime missions where FLIR would be less effective due to abundant solar radiation.

As before, I don't claim to know the solution, or even if things really need to be changed. These are merely my opinions, and I stand by them.


Cheers,


DarthDisco

[Sadist_Cain]

With you on the helicopter tactics in that most people will still choose to fly veeeeery high and bring death from above.

With a good team you can paint the laser targets for the choppers and they can do the whole pop up behind the trees... Boom! thing but rarely in even the most coordinated teams can you get everyone to work that efficiently

So agreed, Dunno how (quicker descent and laser targeting is a start) but theres tweaking to be done to encourage this technique a lil more

In addition, I have two minor points I would like to address.
1. The skyline on Qinling is far too bright and white, when flying above the horizon, one cannot even see the HUD in the pilot's position. Meaning that speed, altitude, and targeting direction are all useless.
2. The so called "FLIR" cam being used on attack helicopters is anything but. The system simply draws a black and white image of the game word. True IR camera technology is an asset for armed forces, it allows greater visual accuracy at night, and precise targeting with regards to heat sources, even during the day.

As for these two thing I think there's lotsa threads obout the Qinling sky (is that being fixed in the patch?) and it seems to be the the current "FLIR" is really a tester thing

[Technoelite]

well i use the modern day apache tatctics abd i works on most coasions but it really annoys me when tanks blow out of the sky or in teh sky high up u get hit by aa, i think it shows how weak the moadern helichopters are. (read red storm rising) and if tow modern powers went up agaisnt eash other u scwed in an apache

[Spaz]

As is well known, the modus operandi of modern day attack helicopters is far from that which we are employing here. US Army Apache pilots do not hover at 500m and launch their ordinance, they use the terrain as cover, pop up, fire, and duck down again. Currently, the threat that enemy armor poses to tanks makes this strategy non-viable in most situations, since a tank can, at most ranges up to 500m, take aim and fire at a Helicopter far faster than that helicopter would take to target and fire a rocket. [assuming that a laser target has not already been provided.]

When me and bond fly we always stay low and hide behind hills, and when we are in position (to defend/attack) a flag we pop up and shot the rocket, we always use the guided to hit the target fast, the only problem with the guided rocket is that if the pilot moves just a little bit the gunner will miss. But normaly the guided rocket is better to be able to kill faster.

[MACDRE]

If only the gunners camera could remain stationary on a target, or track it. *sigh*

[Spaz]

If only the gunners camera could remain stationary on a target, or track it. *sigh*

That is something i really want, atleast could the camera be in the same position even if the pilot is turning, not sure if you will understand what i meen but...

But I really don't think you are able to make something that tracks the target with the bf2 engine and also that will take away all the skills

[<1sk>Headshot]

When me and bond fly we always stay low and hide behind hills, and when we are in position (to defend/attack) a flag we pop up and shot the rocket, we always use the guided to hit the target fast, the only problem with the guided rocket is that if the pilot moves just a little bit the gunner will miss. But normaly the guided rocket is better to be able to kill faster.

The problem lies with finding targets and the **** "FLIR". You can't just pop over every hill and know where all of their armour is. Searching for targets while peering over a hill takes time. Time a good tank crew isn't going to give you.

[Spaz]

The problem lies with finding targets and the **** "FLIR". You can't just pop over every hill and know where all of their armour is. Searching for targets while peering over a hill takes time. Time a good tank crew isn't going to give you.

You should not stop at every hill to look for a tank, and no stoping behing a hill and pop up to search for a target takes max 5 sec, if you havn't seen any targets in this time you should fly away. And don't just hide behind a random hill, hide where you know there is a tank, or close to a flag/way to a flag.

[Mora]

That is something i really want, atleast could the camera be in the same position even if the pilot is turning, not sure if you will understand what i meen but...

But I really don't think you are able to make something that tracks the target with the bf2 engine and also that will take away all the skills

Stabilization been worked on . However i am not sure if it will be implanted.. take a look, there is also i video.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ms-18.html

[Spaz]

Stabilization been worked on . However i am not sure if it will be implanted.. take a look, there is also i video.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... ms-18.html

YAY!!!

[Burlock]

the problem with comparing moden day warfare tacktics with whats happeneing is PR, is that when was the last time you heard of a major enguagement of attack helocopeters verses today modern day tanks?

there are videos that show tanks can hit flying object so this is realistic.

Sure attack choppers are great aginst the sort of people america / uk / nato are fighting surrently because they are not fighting against people with advanced weaponry.

Imagine the attack chopper on basra, it would take quite a bit to down that thing on that map as they dont have the weaponry to take it out but put it against a well equiped force and i think its quite realistic how things are now.

tactics change, a tank would struggle to take out a fast moving chopper or one high up enough so thats what you have to adapt to. and if this was RL they would advetialy change there tactics, impliment new technology to counter it or stop using attack choppers in situations where there is a good chance they will get blasted.

[BloodBane611]

Pop-up tactics are not for looking for tanks, they're for killing them. Some SL wants to designate a tank, tells you the area is clear of AA or informs you of enemy AA positions. You position yourself to avoid them, or destroy them before you attack. Then the SL tells you he has designated, you pop over the hill, your gunner fires, you drop back down. Tank then explodes, and everyone goes on their merry way (except for the roasting tank crew).

Theoretically that's how it works. In real life....eh, haven't seen it done, although I have tried designating for helos on quinling. They didn't really notice.

[Spaz]

Theoretically that's how it works. In real life....eh, haven't seen it done, although I have tried designating for helos on quinling. They didn't really notice.

Don't use the LD, just tell them where the tank is and let them take it out on there own

[Alex6714]

I doubt you would need to pop up, what with modern radars and such...


I propose that the laser targeted missiles get a slightly longer ranger for lock on, and that in laser guided mode, vehicles get lit up with the boxes like on the old A-10, they don´t lock on, but it makes the target easier to see. Maybe green boxes, red boxes, triangles. Whatever looks realistic that will help. Because at the moment helis have to engage from very close range, with unstabalized missiles.

[Mosquill]

Don't use the LD, just tell them where the tank is and let them take it out on there own

+1
Never succesfully used laser targeted mode, It's so much easier to just fire a burst of LGM missiles. And pop-up tactics in PR are suicidal. If you have a good gunner, then just engage flying high and fast from unexpected direction, and let the gunner do the laser-guided work. And don't forget to use flares, they'll save your life a lot of times and you won't even know it.

Back on topic.
One of the main heli-related problems in PR is the view distance. Have you ever seen (IRL) attack helicopters using pop-up tactic 300m away from enemy positions? In PR helicopters cannot engage from far away, if they are seen, then they're already too close and can be shot down easily (even by tanks). IRL apache can hover 2km away and just fire a rocket in laser-guided mode, while staying away from any non-aa threat.
What we need (imo) is a greater view distance on maps like kashan. And it won't affect performance much, at least it didn't on my (poor) PC.

[Spaz]

And pop-up tactics in PR are suicidal..

I still don't understand how ppl have problem with this tactic? For me and my pilot it works great!

[Mora]

What we need is increased view distance in the gunner view but only with FLIR or any other IR mode. That should solve the view problem for the A-choppers. This should be possible because the bf2 hacks can do it too...

[Mosquill]

I still don't understand how ppl have problem with this tactic? For me and my pilot it works great!

Well, maybe on Qinling it works great, I don't know. But on kashan, if you hover behind the hill, enemies on the other side of the hill can hear exactly where you are and aim their L-AT's, 50cals, or whatever they have directly at the place where you're going to pop-up, and when you do, you're pretty much a dead meat.

The whole concept of pop-up is to remain unexpected, but how can you be unexpected if people can hear exactly where you are?

[Mongolian_dude]

Firstly, id like to say thank you for addressing the topic in such a mature and clear manner.

The mention of Quinling's white-out is, as you mentioned, quite problematic. i think this can be rectified, but im unsure was to how easy a task this is. It may require something long and tiresome, such as Lightmapping -Any mapper's worst nightmare-. Im no expert though.


Yes, your assumptions are correct about the engine limitations. We (player and artist) are rather restricted greatly by the lack of proofing of the BF2 engine, not to say EA didnt produce a good product. It just seems little attention is payed to what happens to the product, after it's bought off the shelf.
I myself can recall suggesting working FLIR systems, and it was a false hope.

...mongol...

[DarthDisco]

Mongolian_dude;600769']Firstly, id like to say thank you for addressing the topic in such a mature and clear manner.

The mention of Quinling's white-out is, as you mentioned, quite problematic. i think this can be rectified, but im unsure was to how easy a task this is. It may require something long and tiresome, such as Lightmapping -Any mapper's worst nightmare-. Im no expert though.


Yes, your assumptions are correct about the engine limitations. We (player and artist) are rather restricted greatly by the lack of proofing of the BF2 engine, not to say EA didnt produce a good product. It just seems little attention is payed to what happens to the product, after it's bought off the shelf.
I myself can recall suggesting working FLIR systems, and it was a false hope.

...mongol...

I was afraid of that. As I mentioned above then, perhaps it would be more prudent (and no less realistic) to simply give the helicopter gunner a full colour display, as seen currently on all main battle tank driver positions.

I can verify as fact that both the Cobra and Apache gunships do come equipped with HD TV camera's for long range day vision. As for the Havoc and Z-10, I don't think adding such technology would be a bad thing, nor would it be unrealistic as it is not too much of a stretch to believe that both nations would put such a simple upgrade into their gunships eventually. Simply to extend their operational life.