Changes to the injury/death system

DrMcCleod · Post by **DrMcCleod** » 2008-02-07 09:08

There is something profoundly unrealistic about the medic Shock Paddles. I wonder if a better solution is possible? For example,

1) Remove the shock paddles.

2) Instead of being incapacitated when critically wounded, you can still crawl, although you are still bleeding. Any attempt to stand makes you lose a bit of health and fall down again. You can still take damage from enemy action. If your health falls below X, you die.

3) In order to be able to walk again you must be healed up by a medic using the current system.

Now, injured players can crawl back into cover for treatment and their are no more Lazarus style shenanigans.

Sadist_Cain · Post by **Sadist_Cain** » 2008-02-07 10:03

I certainly like the idea of seeing medics/injuries tweaked a lil bit.

\thought I must confess I like the defibs, I think of it as being like a field surgeons bag with morphine etc etc. for when you're really boned

Afaik exactly what you're suggesting is hardcoded, with the changing stance thing but I'm no coder so I dunno :S

There's been a few threads already about field hospitals and such, I think the general consensus amougnst the community is that we'd like to see a bit more realism/changes for the medic

Ayu · Post by **Ayu** » 2008-02-07 10:11

I would rather stick to the current system. If i understood you right you suggest to make the medic some kind of normal, just with unlimited ability to heal ? This way medic would become pretty much useless, because you could just collect field dressings when you are wounded and it would have the same effect.
Or do you suggest that this kind of injuries, which force you to crawl can ONLY be handled by a medic ?

DrMcCleod · Post by **DrMcCleod** » 2008-02-07 13:06

Ayu wrote:I would rather stick to the current system. If i understood you right you suggest to make the medic some kind of normal, just with unlimited ability to heal ? This way medic would become pretty much useless, because you could just collect field dressings when you are wounded and it would have the same effect.
Or do you suggest that this kind of injuries, which force you to crawl can ONLY be handled by a medic ?

Well, field dressings are generally in pretty short supply, and may not stop you bleeding if you are badly injured. I would rather have a medic than rely on them.

jOHNNYdOUBE · Post by **jOHNNYdOUBE** » 2008-02-07 13:10

One may still be KILLED.
knife.
boom...headshot
explosion.
roadkills...
ya know.

It's fine the way it is.

LordSquiffy · Post by **LordSquiffy** » 2008-02-07 13:14

Ok, who's been shot for real?......Hands up?

Not me, unless you count a stray airgun pellet when i was a kid. So if we want realism, who out there in our community knows what damage is caused from a bullet wound. Perhaps they can tell us whether you can crawl to a medic, or if the pain and dis-orientation is so bad that you just lie there in shock.

I think the medic system is ok at the moment. Its simple, and it works. The system could only be improved by my either being invisible or having none of you shoot at me to start with.

DrMcCleod · Post by **DrMcCleod** » 2008-02-07 13:47

jOHNNYdOUBE wrote:One may still be KILLED.
knife.
boom...headshot
explosion.
roadkills...
ya know.

It's fine the way it is.

You miss the point.

DrMcCleod · Post by **DrMcCleod** » 2008-02-07 13:48

LordSquiffy wrote:Ok, who's been shot for real?......Hands up?

Not me, unless you count a stray airgun pellet when i was a kid. So if we want realism, who out there in our community knows what damage is caused from a bullet wound. Perhaps they can tell us whether you can crawl to a medic, or if the pain and dis-orientation is so bad that you just lie there in shock.

I think the medic system is ok at the moment. Its simple, and it works. The system could only be improved by my either being invisible or having none of you shoot at me to start with.

I agree that the system is OK. BF:Vanilla is OK. But PR is great, and I would like the medic system to be great as well.

BloodBane611 · Post by **BloodBane611** » 2008-02-07 14:40

Your suggestions are not possible with this engine. You're not the first to realize the shock paddles are unrealistic, but they're standins for whatever the medic may use to get a slightly wounded soldier back on his feet and into combat.

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2008-02-07 17:59

BloodBane611 wrote:Your suggestions are not possible with this engine. You're not the first to realize the shock paddles are unrealistic, but they're standins for whatever the medic may use to get a slightly wounded soldier back on his feet and into combat.

that slightly wounded soldier just took 3 7.62mm bullets to the torso!
Me, I'd prefer to see either
1) defibs removed and injured troops having to fall back to either a troop carrier (apc) or helicopter "to be healed" - [to replicate being evacuated (entering the vehicle) and replaced by a fresh trooper (exiting the vehicle after being "healed")]. All this would require is APCs, Helicopters become mobile health stations when inside the vehicle
OR
2) defibs removed from the current medic and two classes created - a fully armed default (scoped) rifleman who is also a combat lifesaver with bandages only like the civilian (no magic bag) .... and a pistol armed defib-toting, magic bag wielding requestable medic class with a big red cross/crescent on his /her arm with penalties to the opposing team for being killed much like a civilian in insurgency maps.

Or both - they would both work well together and further remove gameyness from PR

Post by **Deadfast** » 2008-02-07 18:06

$kelet0r wrote:...

Oh man...

1) so we'll have half of the team wandering around, looking for some way to get healed.

2) now this would look just ridiculous.

arjan · Post by **arjan** » 2008-02-07 18:12

LMAO @ Deadfasts signature ..!!!

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2008-02-07 18:43

Deadfast wrote:Oh man...

1) so we'll have half of the team wandering around, looking for some way to get healed.

2) now this would look just ridiculous.

1) as opposed to the current situation ... where half the team is wandering around trying to find a medic

2) if by ridiculous you mean realistic then yes

I hate responses and by extension people like this. I'm all for debate and criticism but arguments in favour of unrealistic features in a combat simulator is like Godwins Law - once you mention it, you should slap your face with a big wet cod

Post by **Deadfast** » 2008-02-07 19:16

I'm gonna explain it a bit more.

1) Well, but right now you have pretty much of a chance to find the medic after all. With your suggestion, it'll take much longer, eventually be impossible to do it in time. It's true that it would be more realistic, but after all, we are fighting with 32 vs 32 people. This is not realistic as well.

2) No, by ridiculous I mean ridiculous. This suggestion has multiple cons. 1. People won't give a damn if you are a medic or not, you'll die all the time. 2. Even if they would learn not to shoot medics, then medic would turn to ultimate killing machine - why? - you gotta admit that 9mm is of far more damaging caliber than civvie's stones. 3. Let's pretend that points 1 and 2 will not be the issue, but what if the medic is running towards a huge heaps of bodies that will start reviving immediately (surely realistic). Because of the kill penalty you can't, however, kill him. Well, what a surprise - what used to be a heap of dead bodies is now shooting back !

All these realism arguments. Yes, I love the game because it's realistic. But the fair place in my relation towards PR plays teamwork.
You always gotta find a pivot between realism and entertainment.

Respawning is not realistic as well, yet no one complains.

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2008-02-07 19:38

Deadfast wrote:I'm gonna explain it a bit more.

1) Well, but right now you have pretty much of a chance to find the medic after all. With your suggestion, it'll take much longer, eventually be impossible to do it in time. It's true that it would be more realistic, but after all, we are fighting with 32 vs 32 people. This is not realistic as well.

Actually the battle is # tickets vs # of tickets but I'll let that slide - the 64 player limit is something that we cannot change so using it as an argument is fruitless.
To respond, if I had my way there would be mechanics to simulate evacuating the wounded ingame. And the only viable way to do this is for injured troopers to be bandaged and either alone or escorted move to a troop carrier (apc or heli), enter it to simulate being evac'd and then pop out when the healing counter disappears to simulate a fresh trooper replacing the injured. So bandages become very important to survival and having vehicular support nearby at all times becomes vital. At the moment combined arms is very much a buzz-word rather than a reality ingame.

2) No, by ridiculous I mean ridiculous. This suggestion has multiple cons. 1. People won't give a damn if you are a medic or not, you'll die all the time. 2. Even if they would learn not to shoot medics, then medic would turn to ultimate killing machine - why? - you gotta admit that 9mm is of far more damaging caliber than civvie's stones. 3. Let's pretend that points 1 and 2 will not be the issue, but what if the medic is running towards a huge heaps of bodies that will start reviving immediately (surely realistic). Because of the kill penalty you can't, however, kill him. Well, what a surprise - what used to be a heap of dead bodies is now shooting back !

Ah the old 'use the most extreme example' to pick holes rather than find solutions. The 9mm is for self defence - so 1) the medic could be like the commander and get no points or kill count for being rambo 2) insurgents would not have this restriction because ... they're insurgents 3) last I saw, defib'd soldiers respawn with circe 10% health, prone and disorientated. Easy kills? And hardly exploitable seeing as the medic has a finite amount of defibs available without resupply 4) the kill penalty is a deterrent - it doesn't make the medic bullet-proof. Sometimes like with civilians, you may have to pull the trigger. The deterrent means that you only do it when you absolutely have no other choice. So that's those arguments shot down ...

edit - now that I think about, removing the magic bag would solve all the above. Defib soldiers would have to be "evac'd" once revived - the defib animation and subsequent bandage simulating being treated to stop bleeding to death on the battlefield, but seeing as you just took 4 or more bullets to the chest still requiring "evac". And by evac I mean falling back to a helicopter or APC, healing fully and hopping out to rejoin the fight - a metaphor for injured soldier one entering vehicle to be evacuated to hospital and fresh replacement hopping out and joining his squadmates.

All these realism arguments. Yes, I love the game because it's realistic. But the fair place in my relation towards PR plays teamwork.
You always gotta find a pivot between realism and entertainment.

Respawning is not realistic as well, yet no one complains.

To date, there have been many who have sang this song. The Minimap, Flag Spawning, the scoreboard, squad leader spawning ... to date the Devs have ignored what was in all those cases a slight majority in favour of keeping the above and much more relics from BF2 and other arcade games. In all those cases, the Devs made the less popular better choice
...

Post by **Rudd** » 2008-02-07 19:53

BloodBane611 wrote:Your suggestions are not possible with this engine. You're not the first to realize the shock paddles are unrealistic, but they're standins for whatever the medic may use to get a slightly wounded soldier back on his feet and into combat.

x2

Nothing new suggested here really

If the game could support it I'd like corpsmen to be able to stabilise casualties and get them on a transport, then a medical officer back at an aid station/hospital would be able to perform surgery to save the man's life. Defib is completely unrealistic, but remember its not "lazarus" stuff the casualty is critically wounded, not dead.

I don't think its possible, but the best you can get out of bf2 is probably this system (but with something instead of defibs) but you are not fully healed until you have been to a aid station or healed by a limited medical officer kit.

But words such as hardcoded scream in my ears.

Post by **Deadfast** » 2008-02-07 19:53

Of course, you have tickets, but still you are limited to 32 players acutualy playing per team.

If the change would be implemented, you would have (per team) about
15 players fighting
10 players actively searching for some way to heal them selfs
7 players idle/waiting for respawn.

Besides, what about vehicle-less maps (7 Gates on China side) ?

1) The 'uber killing machine' doesn't necessarily lead to rambos. Just imagine - the only way to kill a medic would be with a knife. So you see a medic, take out a knife and attack him...just to get popped by a pistol.

2) I never said anything about insurgents ?

3) Yes, but the blurry vision takes a while to re-appear. You have a few seconds to shoot back.

4) "Hey x, quickly respawn and grab a L-AT kit, we need it for that APC here!"
"Sorry chief, just popped the 2 medics back there, gimme 3 minutes."

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2008-02-07 20:18

Deadfast wrote:Of course, you have tickets, but still you are limited to 32 players acutualy playing per team.

If the change would be implemented, you would have (per team) about
15 players fighting
10 players actively searching for some way to heal them selfs
7 players idle/waiting for respawn.

Besides, what about vehicle-less maps (7 Gates on China side) ?

The game is still # of tickets vs no. of tickets. You can't keep dredging up the insurmountable obstacle that is a 64 connections limit that we endure - nothing can be done about it - so suspend disbelief like you've done to date. As to your pseudo-statistics, on Battlefield karkand this might be the case but I highly doubt in PR's more deliberate pace that this would be true. And were it the case, then those 10 are doing it wrong - their squad is either operating without any armoured vehicular support or the helicopter pilot is dicking around or assuming my dedicated class was a reality, is operating too far to be supported. In which case, in reality the badly wounded would die. Simple as. Get the squad leader to pop green smoke and create a LZ or have an APC/IFV supporting your operations nearby - it would add a whole new element to the game, that would only deepen the gameplay rather than make it more shallow. On vehicle less maps, well tough cookies - no one gets evac'd on foot! Worst come to worst, vehicleless maps are usually tiny with no deployable commander assets so the uncap/main could also be a heal point if necessary for gameplay.

1) The 'uber killing machine' doesn't necessarily lead to rambos. Just imagine - the only way to kill a medic would be with a knife. So you see a medic, take out a knife and attack him...just to get popped by a pistol.
2) I never said anything about insurgents ?
3) Yes, but the blurry vision takes a while to re-appear. You have a few seconds to shoot back.
4) "Hey x, quickly respawn and grab a L-AT kit, we need it for that APC here!"
"Sorry chief, just popped the 2 medics back there, gimme 3 minutes."

Ok
1- Why would you want to kill a medic? Geneva Convention!
2- Yes you did - insurgent civilians are the only class with stones to use against 9mm pistols. And I made Swiss cheese out of that thought imo
3- Usually when I've been revived ingame, I am disorientated by the sudden change in direction ... or more likely I was grabbing a snack or a drink as I wasn't expecting to be revived. But in the event this could happen, then you're right it is unrealistic. So address the issue - make the foggy vision instantaneous or be revived with your knife out rather than your rifle. There are always solutions to little problems ...
4- This goes back to the deterrent thing a few posts up - you should not be shooting medics in real life war and you should be shooting them ingame. If you are forced to engage a medic, you pay a penalty - 3 minutes is considerably less severe than potential war crime charges

Either way, this would be a fudged attempt at correcting a gamey game mechanic. We can't do dragging (BF2 engine) or properly represent medical attention (animators), so this imo would be the next best thing. Much much better and considerably more plausible imo than keeping magical healing bags and necromancing defibrillators in an unlimited class in what aims to be a combat simulator

Post by **Deadfast** » 2008-02-07 20:58

@64 players:
You still don't get it. I'm not talking about the ticket limit. It has nothing to do with the fact that the more players will be seeking medical attention the less people will be engaged with the actual fight.
I don't know about you, but I had some of my great PR experiences while fighting against enemy number superiority. I doubt it'll be fun to play against 10 players because the rest won't be in a shape to fight.

@My vBF2 statistics:
This is getting a bit too personal, don't you think ?
If you took that much work to open up my profile and check out my stats, you might as well see the little 'Last played' box. It says '23.10.2007', which was actually a pure test (was testing if I get kicked by PB for some changed configs, no it wasn't a cheat - it was just a purely client-side). Quit to play much earlier than that (at the start of '07).
Besides, I don't get why do you drag this kind of stuff to this discussion. Yes, it's true that I was playing vBF2 before, just as 95% of all today's PR players. So please, stop treating me like a vBF2 noob.

@Geneva convention:
I'm sure that army as MEC would really care about some convention that would not even be a part of.
If I remember correctly, cluster bombs are also against the Conventions, yet USA uses them (I'm not really sure if USA is one of the signers it after all).

1) Why would you want to run to enemy fire just to 'zap' a soldier. Besides, see the paragraph above.

2) No, you were comparing the system current civilian system (ie. shooting results in penalty), so I said that pistols are much more effective weapons than stones.

3) Guess we'll agree on this one.

4) Grenades thrown on squad of enemies ? Besides, just as I mentioned before - I believe that as a MEC, you wouldn't get framed, you would be complimented for 'killing the infidels'

End of discussion on my side.

$kelet0r · Post by **$kelet0r** » 2008-02-07 21:31

Deadfast wrote:@64 players:
You still don't get it. I'm not talking about the ticket limit. It has nothing to do with the fact that the more players will be seeking medical attention the less people will be engaged with the actual fight.
I don't know about you, but I had some of my great PR experiences while fighting against enemy number superiority. I doubt it'll be fun to play against 10 players because the rest won't be in a shape to fight.

My comment about statistics was misinterpreted - I meant your arbitrary choice of 10 injured players at any one time. I lol'd that you have your BF2 stats in your profile at all. I simply call bullshit and explained why. Similarly given that to seek medical attention at the moment ingame you have to run after a medic anyway unless you are lucky enough to have one with you, your argument holds no water at all. Better to actually simulate being evacuated to hospital for treatment as I have proposed ... than to have a magical bag repair the multiple gaping holes in your torso.

@Geneva convention:
I'm sure that army as MEC would really care about some convention that would not even be a part of.
If I remember correctly, cluster bombs are also against the Conventions, yet USA uses them (I'm not really sure if USA is one of the signers it after all).

The MEC are a conventional force - they would for the most part signatory or not adhere to the rules of warfare. Otherwise the niceties of treating enemy wounded, taking PoWs and not inflicting unnecessary suffering and torture go right out the window. Civilisation is such a pleasant thing...

1) Why would you want to run to enemy fire just to 'zap' a soldier.

Because you're a medic - it's your job? I have no doubt that some people would enjoy playing that role - and an important more highly valued role it would be if were restricted to a dedicated unarmed Medic class

2) No, you were comparing the system current civilian system (ie. shooting results in penalty), so I said that pistols are much more effective weapons than stones.

A medic would have a pistol for self defence - not much of an offensive weapon. A combat lifesaver rifleman would be a rifleman. Is there an issue here you are disputing? A medic can defend himself with his 9mm if he is in danger of facing the respawn screen by killing if necessary but wouldn't last a minute if he tried to up his kill count - I think that would be reasonable.

4) Grenades thrown on squad of enemies ?

Shit happens? Civilians get killed ingame too you know - out of ignorance or in error, it happens. Adapt and overcome.

4)I believe that as a MEC, you wouldn't get framed, you would be complimented for 'killing the infidels'

The MEC are a modern secular fighting force, arguably the best ingame as well - religious fervor is the job of the Insurgents. This argument holds no water

After all that, tbh simulating evacuation the injured would be an interesting development in gameplay like I said
- vehicular support both in helicopter and armoured overwatch would be so much more important in creating actual combined arms action. Without it you suffer the consequence of taking casualties that will bleed out because of poor squad leading
- remove the magic bag and zombie creating defibs arcade gameyness in favour of a poor man's med-evac
- introduce a dedicated Medic class who's purpose is to saves lives rather than run and gun (variety is the spice etc)
- make bandages more valuable and serve an actual purpose (right now you grab a bandage or 2 and just rejoin the fight immediately - bullets are lethal in PR so what major difference is 100% compared to 30% health)
All in all, if it's realistic and requires a little thinking and effort, it should be good for the game ... just like all the other changes that differentiate the mother game from PR 0.7