Remove the player locations from the map?

[ender[fdn]]

*** NOTE: This is not a request to the devs or anything like that. I am just personally curious about community opinion on this subject. ***

I'm curious how the community feels about the map.

Recently, the minimap was removed from the HUD after many months of argument from both sides. The polls on that seem to indicate that a majority like the new system.

I'm curious how the community would feel about all player locations being removed from the map. That would mean there would be NO indication whatsoever of where you or any of your teammates are on the map. It would be like you pulled the map out of your pocket, no magic GPS.

I feel it would probably have the following impacts:

1) Would encourage squads to stay closer together, so people don't get separated.

2) Would need commanders to perform more coordination between squads for friend/foe identification. Eg: SQ1: 'CO, Squad 1, are there friendlies in Echo 3?', CO: 'Any squads operating in Echo 3, report in.' ... 'CO: Squad 1, negative on friendlies in Echo 3, you're clear to engage.'

3) Would force more communication within squads about locations, directions, etc.

4) Would require more navigation skills of PR players, being able to identify landmarks, etc. (There was recently a proposed topo map of ghost train that made its way around the forums which would be very interesting as a map replacement.) This is the biggest impact, as right now there's essentially very accurate, easy to use GPS in the game along with all locations of vehicles, etc.

I feel like this is probably going to be just as (if not more) contentious than the minimap removal. I'd love to hear other people's takes on the impact of removing player locations from the map altogether. But let's try to keep it civil and upbeat.

Please try to keep responses on-topic and remember that this isn't a dev request or suggestion, simply personal curiosity about the state of the community's thinking on this topic.

[zangoo]

i would like this a lot, but i think that most of the pr players would have a really hard time with this.

[Eddiereyes909]

no.

I liked the minimap being gone, but sometimes i just get lost

[$kelet0r]

The vast majority will weigh in against this sadly - I however would prefer it, this is for all intents and purposes a combat sim limited by the anchor that is the DICE engine. A topographical map and the in-vehicle GPS which only shows other vehicles would be great imo.

[ConscriptVirus]

if they removed the map entirely, people will get lost. we're not all soldieres and we dont all know how to navigate + use land marks to find where you are. imagine kashan without knowing where u r exactly...the map is huge and the terrain is pretty much the same

[Ragni<RangersPL>]

;606884']That would mean there would be NO indication whatsoever of where you or any of your teammates are on the map. It would be like you pulled the map out of your pocket, no magic GPS.

In that case.... Why do I need a map anyway? It looks like I would be some kind of a retard that can't even find himself on a map

[Clypp]

Worst idea ever.

PR has no good communication system, nor does it have a command staff that would keep track of such things.

As for vehicle positions, most of them have GPS and tracking IRL so to remove that is unrealistic.

[[T]Terranova7]

I like the idea to an extent. If anything, Squad Leaders and Commanders should still be capable of seeing friendly positions. This would greatly increase the need for SMs to follow their SLs. The death a SL could leave the squad members seriously confused, so it would help stress the importance of having a good, active SL. Might also decrease the amount of lone wolves who join the squad and run off by themselves, as they might do more harm than good.

What I would also like to see is some sort of deployable GPS Jammer. Which could effectively blind the opposing team upon entering the jammer's effective range.

[OkitaMakoto]

No, not until there is a super excellent way of knowing where your squad is. You cant have something like this when people are constantly respawning away from their SL. It would do much more harm than good. Without minimap you can still pull up the map to find your squad. Without anything, youd have no idea whatsoever and the text fields would be full of the OFP/ArmA "Where are you" quotes. No one would be together and everyone would be ticked.

As much as it would be more realistic, it really has no way to make gameplay better with the way communication in bf2 is set up.

I love no minimap, but having NO markers on the map would be hell.

MAYBE remove all but your squads. Id be down with that. Except commander sees ALL friendly units. That way he can still coordinate, but as for removing ALL units, big NO from me.

[ender[fdn]]

Here's a question: do most people not use voice comm?

I guess I was under the assumption that most people are using voice comm to coordinate. As far as finding your squadmates, it seems like that would be a better comm method than typing in 'where are you?'.

Also, I am assuming that this would have a pretty significant impact on how squads play.

Typically, right now, I see squads spread out all over the map. It's really rare (and pretty cool) when I see a squad together, moving in formation.

It seems like squads would have to switch to that kind of behavior (staying close, regrouping at their rally when they die, etc.) under this kind of a system.

For those of you voting 'no': how do you a) usually play as part of a squad and b) do you enjoy playing that way more than if you were forced to keep in proximity to your squad to keep from getting lost?

[ir0n_ma1den]

This idea would never ever ever work. Remember, this is a game, not a maze or Real Life. In Real Life, you have a sense of direction, perception, etc. Currently, in a game you don't. Besides, the engine was not designed for this whatso ever. This may have a slight chance of working if you build your own engine to your specifications, but that won't happen.

[Death_dx]

Seems like this won't be possible anyway. If it is, I'm in agreement with Okita and Terranova.

[OkitaMakoto]

I voted no. I stick with my squad and we move as a team. most games a play in this tends to be the same with most other squads I run in to.

I think squad icons should remain, because whenever someone dies, Voip or text wuld fill up with where we're moving to next, where are you? where is he? of course, I'm exaggerting to a degree, but I really think it would swamp the voip with chatter and make it more annoying for those still alive. Imagine joining a squad mid game and asking where the heck they are. You get about 4 responses that are either A. very crappy B. rushed and not understandable and just really annoying...

more to come after I get time and a response

[ender[fdn]]

I assume this is possible given the removal of the enemy spots for all but SLs.

And I've seen this argument about having a 'sense of direction' or 'peripheral vision' in a few other threads about the map.

What makes people feel that the map is a replacement for those things?

An example: I've spent a lot of time on Mao Valley (bring this map back!) and I could probably navigate it quite well without any map. So I don't think the game takes away a 'sense of direction'.

Additionally, although your peripheral vision is less than it is in reality, it seems pretty unrealistic that I can know where my squadmate is when he's a couple clicks away. That goes way beyond 'peripheral vision'.

I'd be interested to hear more specifically how the map (especially now that there's no minimap) is viewed as a replacement for a 'sense of direction' (look at your compass) or for 'peripheral vision'.

[OkitaMakoto]

I dont know. I need to follow more comments as Im not sure how I feel myself

I think my biggest concern is that IRL, you dont have a need for a map because you are with your squad until you die or you all return to base together.

Whereas in PR, dying[sadly] is a relatively common thing for many people. When you die, you respawn back in the middle of nowhere on your own. Then you need to get back with your squad. Now, while your squad can hold up and wait for you, I think its asking a bit too much to always have to regroup on the rally. Not that its never a good idea.

Anyway, I think it would be easy enough to simply ask them where they are[given that the Map lines are made more specific] but, I worry that in pubs it will get severely annoying having every dead guy in your thread asking where you are. not to mention, since you cant see them on your map youd see guys in the distance, and have to wonder are they friendlies or enemies, then you find out they are friendlies, but still have no idea if its your squad or not. While it might not be too difficult most of the time, I am worried that it would be too much of an annoyance and not really give enough to gameplay.

Thats why, for the moment, I am siding with removal of your team, except your squad. And leaving the whole team for the commander.

For now. But, I still want to hear everyone else, of course



sorry, wall of text... apologees

[ender[fdn]]

Don't worry about the wall of text... I think the 'just your squad' thing is somewhat interesting.

What about if you could just see your SL's position? Should make grouping back up pretty easy, but still means that squads need to communicate and be careful about staying together.

[[T]Terranova7]

I just think it's only good if the CO and SL keeps the ability to see friendlies. Special Kits (Such as Spec Ops) and all vehicles should also keep this ability.

The pros being
- Squad Members more likely to stick by the Squad Leader
- Better fire discipline from squad members, as they would need the SL to identify where friendlies are
- Overall, more coordination between SMs and their SLs, and SLs and their COs.

The only real con with that is that SMs would be left in the dark (Less the SL keeps them informed constantly). I do like the idea that they should still be able to see their own squad on the map. As IMHO, that's all they need to know.

[OkitaMakoto]

I just think it's only good if the CO and SL keeps the ability to see friendlies. Special Kits (Such as Spec Ops) and all vehicles should also keep this ability.

The pros being
- Squad Members more likely to stick by the Squad Leader
- Better fire discipline from squad members, as they would need the SL to identify where friendlies are
- Overall, more coordination between SMs and their SLs, and SLs and their COs.

The only real con with that is that SMs would be left in the dark (Less the SL keeps them informed constantly). I do like the idea that they should still be able to see their own squad on the map. As IMHO, that's all they need to know.

More or less my thoughts to the word.

I think giving the SL and Commander more repsonsibility for maintaining location knowledge and passing it down to their squad is something pretty important. I could see a squad leader informing his men where squd 2 is moving in from.

However, whats a SL supposed to say when squads 2, 3, and 4 are spread out like there's no tomorrow?

ummm, guys, just um.. watch your fire...like... a lot... because that whole area is full of our team, and the enemy

I digress. I agree Terra

[Katash]

I think this is a good idea but will make things too hard for most people. I personally would love to see it.

However most of the problems people have raised here can be solved relativly easly in my opinion.

If part of the compass hud was to display your map grid reference to simulate a soldier having a personal GPS reciever, you could very easly check your map and pinpoint your position with fairly accuratly, mapreading being an important feature in the game.

Just a thought