Posted: 2008-03-06 02:46
I apologize for the length....but all of it needs to be said....and read.
Please excercise patience....if you have none....do us both a favor and just move on to the next thread.
These are some ideas that I have come up with regarding the "civilian" class in the insurgency mode in 2 other threads.
They were not the thread starters and the ideas were lost in a "bickering" match with other posters.
I wanted to bring them to the front to see what a few of you think who may not have seen them due to the "foray" and lengths of threads that took place.
These ideas can be manipulated and are a work in progress.
But ultimately I hope to bring usefulness, honesty, and ultimately a degree of realism while playing as a civilian.....or playing against a civilian.
First off, it is my opinion that the term "civilian" is just a loose label in game for this class.
Many valid arguments have been made in regard to "civilians not ACTING like civilians".
It is my belief that this class, regardless of the name, is meant to represent the small percentage of people, who although do not physically take up arms, ARE sympathetic and helpfull to the insurgent cause, and are faithfull to their mother country, against a foreign invading military.
During WWII, it was common for French citizens to feed and house Allied armies. Were the citizens actively fighting the Germans?
No....but their protection and aiding of the Allied forces was their method of fighting. Had they been discovered (and they sometimes were)the punishment was both severe and sometimes fatal.
They were indeed civilians...but they were acting in support of the Allied forces against Germany.
The civies in game are much the same in principle.
Except, they are more active in their approach in game. They represent the "grey area" that exists currently in Iraq.
I agree with the argument that "civilians" dont run at soldiers and throw rocks and dont...blah blah blah etc. etc.
You are right.
But making these arguments means you are hung up on the fact that they are called "civilians".....not the actions of the class.
In real life.....there IS a class of people who throw rocks. There is a class of people that observe foreign troop movements and report them to the insurgency. There is a class of people who give aid and bandages to the insurgents. Their is a class of people who will give their vehicles to insurgents, or give them a ride.
They are not taking up arms....but they are certainly supporting the insugency.
There is nothing that can be done about it......unless they are caught in the act.
Would I consider them civilians? Thats debateable and the issue really lies in the semantics.
But their actions are indirect enough, that I would not consider them part of the actual insurgency either.
So.....I propose this....(some aspects are already in game...but included so as to be all incompassing)
I will refer to the "civilian" class as "civie"
A civie can be killed with impunity under the following circumstances:
...they are holding/throwing rocks
...they are actively using the binos
...they are actively using the wrench
...they are actively using the grappling hook.
...they are driving or riding in a vehicle
...they can be run over BY vehicles ("accidents" happen)
...they are on a ladder
...they are stabbed as in the current method of arrest
I would then add a selection to the kit that was open....meaning that when selected...the civie was empty handed.
The previous circumstances are all actions that could be considered as supporting the insurgent cause with the exception of the ladder and being run-over. These actions by a civie could easily be construed as participating in the insurgency and enable them to be "confused" by the Brits AS the insurgency. The addition of the ladder and being run-over contingencies are there to insure basically that civies just arent running all over. They should feel insecure about moving freely in a battle zone. I also understand that a civie just driving a vehicle doesnt mean he is an insurgent either.
But...if reports had been coming over the radio that a "Red car" was seen in the vicinity carrying insurgents or a possible VBIED, its understandable to see where the case could be made for "mistaken identity".
(these methods would also make it usless to climb light-poles too....that act is rediculous and an exploit and is shoddy game play)
You would however be punished for killing a civie under the following circumstances:
...they are "empty handed"
...they are carrying or using a bandage regardles of who the bandage was used on.
Thats it....otherwise pick and choose your targets wisely.
This places the responsibility of the civie having been killed....more on the civie himself.
If he didnt want to be confused as an insurgent....he shouldnt have been acting in a manner so as to be confused as one.
There would also be no punishment for "wounding" a civie. Consider this being able to fire a "warning shot".
You would however be punished if your "warning shot" wound resulted in the death of a civie.
It would also be in the civies best interest to stay out of site all together. Or at least stay away from foreign troops.
As I said before the civie class should want to keep their heads down in a battle zone. They should also want to stay away from foreign troops as they possess intel of where the insurgents are hiding weapons caches.
Whether or not this intel is given to the Brits or not depends on the civies method of play as well. How much does the civie care about his homeland? How much does he care about the insurgencies cause. Or flat-out....how much does he care about winning the game?
I propose this....
Civies could be scored by how long they remain alive. Not sure how many points per minute....but this would encourage the "civies" to act more like "civies"....and avoid being killed/captured at all costs. There may be the argument that civies would just run and hide the entire round. Not to worry.....the scoring wouldnt be that great of a benefit and besides who would want to spend an entire round crouched in hiding?
I would also propose this....
When civies are knife/captured they die immediately as currently in game but, with this exception...
The civie class then earns an immediate 3 or 4 minute wait time. They are then given a descision.
If they respawn immediately, and go back into the game....they give up intel as to where the location of a weapons cache is located, they would earn negative points, and would possibly spawn at a random place on the map.
This would symbolize the civie having been captured, detained and questioned.....and then bargaining intel for his freedom by giving up a cache location to be let go. The randomization of their respawn symolizes them just being dropped out at a random spot by the Brits.
But....if the civie decides to wait out his 3 to 4 minute sentence.....no intel on cache locations would be reavealed to the Brits. He could then respawn at the spawn location of his choice.
This would symbolize the civie having been captured, detained, and questioned.....but remaining tight-lipped about the local insurgency and not giving away any intel, and then being released by the Brits after seeing that no intel could be gained.
It is my opinion that the civie players will attempt to act more true to the civie name....and keep clear of advancing troops a little more if they are faced with the intel descision or the extended wait time.
Plain and simple....if you dont want to be caught.....and you dont want to consider giving up intel.....DONT GET KNIFED/CAPTURED......PERIOD
Argument: "Why would anyone play the class if they had to wait longer if captured?"
Answer: This proposal would increase the importance of the civie by having them staying alive in order to preserve the location of caches.
Argument: "What's to stop someone from just ditching out of the game, and re-entering if they didnt want to wait their sentencing or give up a cache.?"
Answer: A captured civie could possibly be set to automatically give up intel if the player disconnects. Also there is also the obvious....their arent many insurgent servers.....dumping out of one that you are enjoying may result in several things: not getting back in the server due to the server being full, or not getting back on the same team, same squad, etc. Besides....its cheesey game-play. Take pride in your method of play.
Argument: "Whats to stop a player from being a smacktard and deliberately getting caught in order to give up intel?"
Answer: Whats to stop a player from doing this in the current mode? At least with my suggestion there is a choice to preserve intel. And the whole process could take longer, possibly keeping the offender from being in game a big part of the time.
In my experience most folks would rather be playing....than waiting......so dont get caught!
As for the punishment for Brits who kill "unarmed civies".....
I propose this....
A Brit who kills an unarmed civie.....will recieve a weapons malfunction!
It would be as if the Brit experienced a weapons malfuntion or a weapon jam due to "Murphy's Law of Combat" or maybe even a stroke of "Bad Kharma".
After killing the civie.....the offending Brit would here an audible "click" much like the sound experienced in game when out of ammo. Just as it might take up to two minutes to unjam or repair a malfunctioning weapon (depending on the jam or type of malfunction) the offending Brit would be unable to use his main weapon for two minutes. The only way he could fire again would be to pick up another kit from a dead player or wait out the two minutes.
This weapons malfunction would make players check their fire.....and use discretion when pulling the trigger.
This weapons malfunction punishment is immediate.....it takes the player out of the fight and makes them useless to their squad and team temporarily.....it makes them vulnerable to the enemy.....and it doesnt hender or punish the entire team for the indiscretions of someone who is just shooting anything that moves.
***Edit:
At the suggestion of [R-MOD]Masaq in another post...an idea that I too agree with:
Public Humiliation for any Brit killing a civie:
"PlayerA killed an innocent civilian and can't be trusted with a loaded weapon"
The above could be posted in large letters in the server for all to see.
Check your fire.....and dont fire at civies unless you can visibly see them acting un-civie like.....or acting on behalf of the insurgency.
If you cant tell the difference due to distance and/or draw distance......hold your fire until you CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE.
Thank you for your patience and taking the time to read this.
I want the game to be a success and I want this class to serve a purpose that is both realistic and fun to play.
Also.....if you enjoy this game/mod.....and if you have the means and are able.....take the time to donate to PR.
*************
Edited for insertion of [R-MOD]Masaq's quote
Please excercise patience....if you have none....do us both a favor and just move on to the next thread.
These are some ideas that I have come up with regarding the "civilian" class in the insurgency mode in 2 other threads.
They were not the thread starters and the ideas were lost in a "bickering" match with other posters.
I wanted to bring them to the front to see what a few of you think who may not have seen them due to the "foray" and lengths of threads that took place.
These ideas can be manipulated and are a work in progress.
But ultimately I hope to bring usefulness, honesty, and ultimately a degree of realism while playing as a civilian.....or playing against a civilian.
First off, it is my opinion that the term "civilian" is just a loose label in game for this class.
Many valid arguments have been made in regard to "civilians not ACTING like civilians".
It is my belief that this class, regardless of the name, is meant to represent the small percentage of people, who although do not physically take up arms, ARE sympathetic and helpfull to the insurgent cause, and are faithfull to their mother country, against a foreign invading military.
During WWII, it was common for French citizens to feed and house Allied armies. Were the citizens actively fighting the Germans?
No....but their protection and aiding of the Allied forces was their method of fighting. Had they been discovered (and they sometimes were)the punishment was both severe and sometimes fatal.
They were indeed civilians...but they were acting in support of the Allied forces against Germany.
The civies in game are much the same in principle.
Except, they are more active in their approach in game. They represent the "grey area" that exists currently in Iraq.
I agree with the argument that "civilians" dont run at soldiers and throw rocks and dont...blah blah blah etc. etc.
You are right.
But making these arguments means you are hung up on the fact that they are called "civilians".....not the actions of the class.
In real life.....there IS a class of people who throw rocks. There is a class of people that observe foreign troop movements and report them to the insurgency. There is a class of people who give aid and bandages to the insurgents. Their is a class of people who will give their vehicles to insurgents, or give them a ride.
They are not taking up arms....but they are certainly supporting the insugency.
There is nothing that can be done about it......unless they are caught in the act.
Would I consider them civilians? Thats debateable and the issue really lies in the semantics.
But their actions are indirect enough, that I would not consider them part of the actual insurgency either.
So.....I propose this....(some aspects are already in game...but included so as to be all incompassing)
I will refer to the "civilian" class as "civie"
A civie can be killed with impunity under the following circumstances:
...they are holding/throwing rocks
...they are actively using the binos
...they are actively using the wrench
...they are actively using the grappling hook.
...they are driving or riding in a vehicle
...they can be run over BY vehicles ("accidents" happen)
...they are on a ladder
...they are stabbed as in the current method of arrest
I would then add a selection to the kit that was open....meaning that when selected...the civie was empty handed.
The previous circumstances are all actions that could be considered as supporting the insurgent cause with the exception of the ladder and being run-over. These actions by a civie could easily be construed as participating in the insurgency and enable them to be "confused" by the Brits AS the insurgency. The addition of the ladder and being run-over contingencies are there to insure basically that civies just arent running all over. They should feel insecure about moving freely in a battle zone. I also understand that a civie just driving a vehicle doesnt mean he is an insurgent either.
But...if reports had been coming over the radio that a "Red car" was seen in the vicinity carrying insurgents or a possible VBIED, its understandable to see where the case could be made for "mistaken identity".
(these methods would also make it usless to climb light-poles too....that act is rediculous and an exploit and is shoddy game play)
You would however be punished for killing a civie under the following circumstances:
...they are "empty handed"
...they are carrying or using a bandage regardles of who the bandage was used on.
Thats it....otherwise pick and choose your targets wisely.
This places the responsibility of the civie having been killed....more on the civie himself.
If he didnt want to be confused as an insurgent....he shouldnt have been acting in a manner so as to be confused as one.
There would also be no punishment for "wounding" a civie. Consider this being able to fire a "warning shot".
You would however be punished if your "warning shot" wound resulted in the death of a civie.
It would also be in the civies best interest to stay out of site all together. Or at least stay away from foreign troops.
As I said before the civie class should want to keep their heads down in a battle zone. They should also want to stay away from foreign troops as they possess intel of where the insurgents are hiding weapons caches.
Whether or not this intel is given to the Brits or not depends on the civies method of play as well. How much does the civie care about his homeland? How much does he care about the insurgencies cause. Or flat-out....how much does he care about winning the game?
I propose this....
Civies could be scored by how long they remain alive. Not sure how many points per minute....but this would encourage the "civies" to act more like "civies"....and avoid being killed/captured at all costs. There may be the argument that civies would just run and hide the entire round. Not to worry.....the scoring wouldnt be that great of a benefit and besides who would want to spend an entire round crouched in hiding?
I would also propose this....
When civies are knife/captured they die immediately as currently in game but, with this exception...
The civie class then earns an immediate 3 or 4 minute wait time. They are then given a descision.
If they respawn immediately, and go back into the game....they give up intel as to where the location of a weapons cache is located, they would earn negative points, and would possibly spawn at a random place on the map.
This would symbolize the civie having been captured, detained and questioned.....and then bargaining intel for his freedom by giving up a cache location to be let go. The randomization of their respawn symolizes them just being dropped out at a random spot by the Brits.
But....if the civie decides to wait out his 3 to 4 minute sentence.....no intel on cache locations would be reavealed to the Brits. He could then respawn at the spawn location of his choice.
This would symbolize the civie having been captured, detained, and questioned.....but remaining tight-lipped about the local insurgency and not giving away any intel, and then being released by the Brits after seeing that no intel could be gained.
It is my opinion that the civie players will attempt to act more true to the civie name....and keep clear of advancing troops a little more if they are faced with the intel descision or the extended wait time.
Plain and simple....if you dont want to be caught.....and you dont want to consider giving up intel.....DONT GET KNIFED/CAPTURED......PERIOD
Argument: "Why would anyone play the class if they had to wait longer if captured?"
Answer: This proposal would increase the importance of the civie by having them staying alive in order to preserve the location of caches.
Argument: "What's to stop someone from just ditching out of the game, and re-entering if they didnt want to wait their sentencing or give up a cache.?"
Answer: A captured civie could possibly be set to automatically give up intel if the player disconnects. Also there is also the obvious....their arent many insurgent servers.....dumping out of one that you are enjoying may result in several things: not getting back in the server due to the server being full, or not getting back on the same team, same squad, etc. Besides....its cheesey game-play. Take pride in your method of play.
Argument: "Whats to stop a player from being a smacktard and deliberately getting caught in order to give up intel?"
Answer: Whats to stop a player from doing this in the current mode? At least with my suggestion there is a choice to preserve intel. And the whole process could take longer, possibly keeping the offender from being in game a big part of the time.
In my experience most folks would rather be playing....than waiting......so dont get caught!
As for the punishment for Brits who kill "unarmed civies".....
I propose this....
A Brit who kills an unarmed civie.....will recieve a weapons malfunction!
It would be as if the Brit experienced a weapons malfuntion or a weapon jam due to "Murphy's Law of Combat" or maybe even a stroke of "Bad Kharma".
After killing the civie.....the offending Brit would here an audible "click" much like the sound experienced in game when out of ammo. Just as it might take up to two minutes to unjam or repair a malfunctioning weapon (depending on the jam or type of malfunction) the offending Brit would be unable to use his main weapon for two minutes. The only way he could fire again would be to pick up another kit from a dead player or wait out the two minutes.
This weapons malfunction would make players check their fire.....and use discretion when pulling the trigger.
This weapons malfunction punishment is immediate.....it takes the player out of the fight and makes them useless to their squad and team temporarily.....it makes them vulnerable to the enemy.....and it doesnt hender or punish the entire team for the indiscretions of someone who is just shooting anything that moves.
***Edit:
At the suggestion of [R-MOD]Masaq in another post...an idea that I too agree with:
Public Humiliation for any Brit killing a civie:
"PlayerA killed an innocent civilian and can't be trusted with a loaded weapon"
The above could be posted in large letters in the server for all to see.
[R-MOD]Masaq wrote:They should also get a 2 minute spawn, loose 100 points and loose the ability to request kits for 7 minutes (effectively five - 2m while they respawn and 5 once they've respawned).
It should be the equviliant of an insurgent blowing up his/her own cache; no instant-death (reflecting due process/trial for troops), but pretty damn extreme measures.
I basically want to see insurgency mode become what it should be - a place of fear and caution for coalition forces, risking letting an insurgent get close rather than blow away some grandma with her weekly shopping.
Hell, a kick script from the server for anyone who kills 5 civvies in a round would be perfectly fine with me.
Check your fire.....and dont fire at civies unless you can visibly see them acting un-civie like.....or acting on behalf of the insurgency.
If you cant tell the difference due to distance and/or draw distance......hold your fire until you CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE.
Thank you for your patience and taking the time to read this.
I want the game to be a success and I want this class to serve a purpose that is both realistic and fun to play.
Also.....if you enjoy this game/mod.....and if you have the means and are able.....take the time to donate to PR.
*************
Edited for insertion of [R-MOD]Masaq's quote
