Jeeps (Ideas/Rant)

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Solitas
Posts: 354
Joined: 2006-04-14 20:55

Jeeps (Ideas/Rant)

Post by Solitas »

As of late I've been driving Jeeps around empty servers, one to better know the maps, and two so I can become a better driver in general.

However, a few things have started to bug me. Things that, I feel, could easily be remedied.

1. Speed (More so for Heavy Jeeps (HJ), though light jeeps also affected)
So your driving along at speed listening to 'Bohemian Rhapsody', while your squad sings along, when suddenly you start driving up a hill.
The singings stopped and your now going at 10mph with several squad mates opting to get out and run past the jeep mocking you.
Now I understand heavy jeeps are weighed down ('heavy' jeeps, who'd have thought it), but come on! For the love of god, hills are heavy jeeps worst enemies right now, I'm more reluctant to drive up a hill than drive near an AT troop.

2. Speedometer
Pretty simple, your driving a jeep and look at your dashboard. For some reason it's stuck on 35mph. Soon you realise it's a sticker with 'Fisherprice' written on it and your soon beginning to question the cars reliability.
Would this really be that hard to inlude, honestly? Just a little speedometer on the dashboard.
Possibly more of a cosmetic idea but should your vehicle sustain damage it's max speed should decrease slightly over time. How do you know, speedometer!

Edit3: Could only be displayed on the HUD, would it take away form realism much? or is it deemed unnecesary? Would be a useful tool for measring speed.

3. Mirrors
Ok the enemy base is on the right, Mirrors, signal, Manouveur....wait where are my mirrors? come to think of it where are my signals.
Now the Humvee is the only vehicle really capable of any degree of spatial awareness. Simply because you can see through the windows and the back.
China and MEC, however, are buggered. They have barely any way to know of incoming threats form the rear (passengers are pseudo awareness and don't count).
Surely it would be possible to include mirrors (ones that work! unlike the vodniks).
Simply add multiple camera angles to the humvee again but instead assign the view to the mirrors. So when you look at a mirror you see the cameras perspective.

Edit3: Restricted by the BF2 engine. Alternative is to include a rear view that can be assigned to a key. A compromise between realism and playability due to the lack of a realistic solution.

4. Gears
Now first off let me say I wouldn't expect the devs to make jeeps stall, as funny as that would be when a squad is trying to get away it would just be too ridiculous.
However, by adding gears you open a whole new avenue for vehicles. For one you'd have a reason to increase maximum speed, two jeeps would actually require some level of awareness beside holding a key down (assuming their not automatics, lazy drivers), and third it allows players to actually CONTROL THEIR SPEED. Something that really annoys me, and would only be good for the xtraction mission in 0.3 :wink:

Edit3: Appears unlikely due to the BF2 engines restrictions. Possibly include a similar alternative that mimics the effect of changing gears;
I.e. Set caps at 10, 20, 30, 40, 50mph. When a jeep hits each cap they need to push a 'Gear' key to advance, otherwise they cannot go past said cap. Slowing down (or braking) would work as it does now, the 'Gear' key only needs to be pushed when accelerating.

5. Momentum
A small one to finish with. Right now jeeps screech to a halt almost instantaneously, it would be nice if they actually kept going for a little further. To stop people abusing this by bailing left,right and centre. Make sure the player incurs damage appropriate to how fast the jeep was going.

6. Protection
Simply put, the jeeps are somewhat underprotected, in particular the Humvee.
The vodnik is relatively fine, though you could add BP (Bulletproof) glass to the side doors not just the windscreen.
The Chinese one (name?) is better than the humvee but the troops and driver are still quite exposed, suggest BP glass on the windscreen and side doors with a canopy over the back, preferably BP to avoid the enemy getting a lucky headshot from the side.
Now the humvee, exposed in every way. No BP glass, lots of windows, and open back.
It is the quinteseential 'Glass Coffin'.
Simply, add BP glass to the windows and make the passengers actually sit on the seat so they aren't as exposed as the back of the humvee. Whilst adding a small canopy at the back so they have somekind of roof.

Edit4: All HJ's have BP windscreens upon testing. Also the Chinese HJ has almost equal spatial awareness to the hummer, yet slightly better protection for passengers.
The vodnik is still like driving a mobile home.

Edit5: Here follows a link to a thread started by Malik that suggests a solution to protection issues in HJ's: http://realitymod.com/forum/t5608-new-j ... hread.html

7. Damage
Another point, as it stands Humvees are strangely 'fragile' towards enemy fire. Now while obviously an assault rifle is unlikely to destroy one, a LMG could after a period of time.
As I understand the term 'Heavy Jeep' implies that these vehicles should be resistent to calibre fire of anything less than .50 (or fear a .50 itself for that matter).
I would mention AT rockets, however it would appear Heavy jeeps are capable of withstanding a single rocket sufficiently which I beleive is enough (even if it's a compromise between realism and playability).

Aside from enemy fire, damage is almost non-existent, by this I mean damage as a result from interaction with the terrain and environment. If a Jeep drives into a wall at high speed it (nor the driver) is barely scratched and can continue to be driven, the same can be said from falling down the hill.
A simple solution would be to not only increase damage on the vehicle itself (to the point of detonation in extreme cases, I beleive hitting a tank is one such instance), but damage the passengers as well, with death resulting from serious accidents e.g. rolling down hills, hitting object at high speeds, etc.

8.Brakes
The back button works as a crappy brake, but vehicles are still lacking in this department.
Assuming momentum can be implemented, braking will be very important (especially if gears are not possible to control speed).
As it stands there is also no handbrake, a tool invaluable to a skilled driver when attempting to take sharp turns, or do a complete 180.

Ok that wraps it up for now, I can't think of anything else to add.
I look forward to some serious opinions about this.
Oh and I do realise it's not a driving game, but it is a relaism game :wink:

Edit1: Added 'Protection' section. Props to 'Top _Cat the great' for pointing it out.
Edit2: Added 'Damage' section. Credit goes to Terranova.
Edit3: Added 'Brakes' section. Additional info for sections 2, 3, and 4, based on [R-DEV]KingofCamelot's comments.
Edit4: Confirmed BP windscreens on all jeeps, and tested the chinese HJ more.
Edit5: Added link to Maliks thread on HJ protection and variation.
Last edited by Solitas on 2006-04-29 17:37, edited 1 time in total.
Heydude235
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Post by Heydude235 »

Right on man thats how it should be.
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Pence
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Post by Pence »

I have to agree.

One thing thogh, we uste to have a Landrover 110 and you need to go to first or second gear to go up steap slopes and the only things we packed in it was two car fridges (Not as much as the loads that the military require).
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Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

oooooo, that is a hell of a lot of truth! From what i have seen in PR.3 i am sure they can handle this (implament it).
What you have pointed out are some of the msot blatantely retardy things EA are incaplable of doing RIGHT.

They are alos fairly basic concepts that should be added and changed. The most important one to me is mirrors, as i am always wanting to see who is sneeking up behind me with a C4 charge or a grenade. However i am sure that it is not possible with the BF2 engine.
THe lack of a proper speedometre is something that alway bug me, aghain it shows pure and utter lazyness. Having one, imerses you further into the game - improving the overall experince and it is also a vital feature in jeep racing and similar adventures.

ONe thing you have not mention is seat layout and number of people they can carry and the proteciton the jeep provides.
- jeeps should be protected again 7.62 but not 50Cal. To implament this effectively, 50cals must be replaced with 7.62 on heavy jeeps to avoid a instand bloodbath.
- troops should be able to sit on proper seats in the hunvee. They should also be able to fire out of the side windows OR the side windows should have bullet proof glass OR a small slot. THIs is becuase it is completely unrelaistic to having nothing in them.
Solitas
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Post by Solitas »

Top _Cat the great wrote:
ONe thing you have not mention is seat layout and number of people they can carry and the proteciton the jeep provides.
- jeeps should be protected again 7.62 but not 50Cal. To implament this effectively, 50cals must be replaced with 7.62 on heavy jeeps to avoid a instand bloodbath.
- troops should be able to sit on proper seats in the hunvee. They should also be able to fire out of the side windows OR the side windows should have bullet proof glass OR a small slot. THIs is becuase it is completely unrelaistic to having nothing in them.
Good points, I neglected to mention pasenger load simply because 0.3 appears to remedy that, by allowing 6 passengers as opposed to 4.

I'll be sure to edit my post with protection though.
Pence
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Post by Pence »

Top _Cat the great wrote: ONe thing you have not mention is seat layout and number of people they can carry and the proteciton the jeep provides.
- jeeps should be protected again 7.62 but not 50Cal. To implament this effectively, 50cals must be replaced with 7.62 on heavy jeeps to avoid a instand bloodbath.
- troops should be able to sit on proper seats in the hunvee. They should also be able to fire out of the side windows OR the side windows should have bullet proof glass OR a small slot. THIs is becuase it is completely unrelaistic to having nothing in them.
As long as this abides by the rules that reality hold. For exsample; I think that 50cal machine guns are the weapons that hummers mount in real life.
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Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

You are correct, but we sometimes have to make small changes for gameplay sake. I am not saying anything for definate, jsut putting forwed a different idea.
I real life 50 cal rounds slice through humvees, and if a humvee met a vodnick (whatever tis called) it would result in the death of all the occupents very quickly - this is not fun.
WHAt is fun is driving down a road with buildings on all sides in a hunvee with 5 other men and 7.62 rounds smashing against the sides and CRACKIGN the glass! But knowing that you are sort of safe, and then living to tell the tale.


I will ask this one more time: Is it possible to make bullet cracks appear on both sides, for obvious reasons????????? thanks
Solitas
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Post by Solitas »

Top _Cat the great wrote:I will ask this one more time: Is it possible to make bullet cracks appear on both sides, for obvious reasons????????? thanks
Too much pressure on the BF2 engine I'd imagine. Though thinking about it I'm sure they appear (BRIEFLY) on the vodniks Bulletproof windscreen, that definately make a sound though.
[T]Terranova7
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Post by [T]Terranova7 »

I don't think bullet cracks are too far-fetched. They could work like many other special effects, primarily like the bullet holes that appear on certain static vehicles in game.

Also one thing I would like to see is having the Jeeps tolerate a bit more damage. I don't think a bunch of bullets are going to make a jeep explode unless one sliced through the gas tank or something. Perhaps if a certain amount of bullets penetrate the engine its disabled, if it penetrates the gas tank it blows up. Hopefully RPG/Dumbfire weapons replace the ATGM systems in the spawn menu in the future. I'm pretty sure unless hit in the right spot that a Jeep could probably continue driving after an RPG hit.

Also if possible lets make driving a skill shall we. If the driver crashes into an object at a high speed, you don't simply back up and go about your day. Hell if possible the vehicle should be disabled after a high speed crash against an object. Its even funnier when a vehicle flips over down a hill and the squad inside continues about their day.
Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

I can not agree more!! TO me jeeps are far more important that tanks or planes becuase they make up the core of PR combat and should, but dont play a vital role.

I would really like to see much mroe attetion spent lookign at this area, however i might be wrong, PR dudes planning it, But i am again extrmely thankfull for all hard work put in.
Malik
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Post by Malik »

Yeah, currently jeeps get no respect (I know it sounds silly saying that, but it's true). Someone hops in, occasionally a gunner will too and they go about their day heading 100m down the road, then hop out. Often the gunner remains taking some kills before being shot or rocketed. That's it. The life expectancy of a jeep is often a couple of minutes, if that. Jeeps need to be stronger so they can start to be used more tactically, such as for cover. The protection for passengers is very limited to say the least, and the lack of windows in the hummer makes it absolutely worthless to hide behind.

I love the seat upgrades, but jeeps still need more attention! Oh, and it'd be great if someone reskinned the Vodnik. I don't know what went wrong with its paint job, but I've never liked the whole turtle shell look...
Top_Cat_AxJnAt
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Post by Top_Cat_AxJnAt »

the plain fact is *** the person , 3 post behind me said:
bullets should do very little harm unless they hit the engine and even then it sshould have simlar protectio ncomapred to the troop compartement.
But RPg's adn shells should cuase serious damage, i would like to see that one tanks shell destroys a jeep but a RPG that jsut glances it shouldl not destroy it.

I would be very gratefull to know what happens to a jeep if hit dead on with an RPG????// thanks
Pence
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Post by Pence »

Malik wrote:I don't know what went wrong with its paint job, but I've never liked the whole turtle shell look...
OMG, Fation critics at its best!

I think tanks need more dominance before Jeeps become super strong, the game engine is the only problem here.
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Pence
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Post by Pence »

Top _Cat the great wrote:the plain fact is *** the person , 3 post behind me said:
bullets should do very little harm unless they hit the engine and even then it sshould have simlar protectio ncomapred to the troop compartement.
But RPg's adn shells should cuase serious damage, i would like to see that one tanks shell destroys a jeep but a RPG that jsut glances it shouldl not destroy it.

I would be very gratefull to know what happens to a jeep if hit dead on with an RPG????// thanks
In Northern Ireland a Humber 'Pig' was hit by an RPG and the driver was the only guy who was killed and the vehical was still operable. Also, i watched that film Blackhawk Down and that truck recives a RPG and it goes straight through and into that man but earlyer in the film; a Somali gets hit by an RPG and evaporates.
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Solitas
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Post by Solitas »

Added a damage section, thanks to Terranova for pointing out the obvious durability of the vehicles I overlooked.

Also thanks to everyones input, wasn't expecitng quite so much feedback, Cheers.
six7
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Post by six7 »

jeeps should be immune to small arms but should be destroyed with one AT shot or maybe 1-2 HE grenades (if implemented). .50 cals should be more prominant in maps allowing for soldiers to better challenge jeeps and maybe have a few mk 19 GLs *drools*
Of mankind we may say in general they are fickle, hypocritical, and greedy of gain. -Niccolò Machiavelli
[T]Terranova7
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Post by [T]Terranova7 »

I don't like that idea Six7. I think Jeeps should be capable of tolerating alot of punishment. An AT missile system such as the Predator (Actually last I heard the predator was canned, perhaps another topic of discussion) should probably destroy a jeep in one hit.

However I'm anticapting that in in a later release PR will replace the ATGM systems with dumbfire weapons such as the AT-4, RPG-7 etc. These should not destroy a jeep in one hit. However the explosive warhead may injure or kill one or two of the occupants inside.

Also another note, the current LMGs in game aren't much different in terms of ballistics compared to the assault rifles. The RPK fires 5.45 rounds, which is actually slightly weaker than Ak-101 and M-16 rifles. The M249 fires 5.56 rounds, basically the same as the AK-101 and M16 rifles. Basically I don't think we need to make LMGs more than they are at the moment. When a jeep appears players should be trying to concentrate on the gunner. It would be nice to have an anti-material sniper rifle capable of piercing bullet proof glass as well.

Also another issue is the fact that these jeeps have really exposed locations. I mean how many times have soldiers rode on the Humvee's trunk through a combat zone and lived to tell about it. All of the players should be inside the jeep, with the only player being close to exposed in the gunner.

Also, this may call for a slight unbalance, but I must point out that the vodnik is an amphibous vehicle. Its actually nicknamed the "Waterman" beleive it or not. Another thing is I think we could use some variety on the Chinese transports, at least from what I've seen on sinodefence.

http://sinodefence.com/army/transport/default.asp

Finally for a future addition what about having supply trucks. They could be used on some sort of ambush/convoy type maps. Perhaps the convoy team has to get their vehicles to an extraction point while the ambush team has to destroy all of the vehicles. But thats also another issue for another topic. :D
six7
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Post by six7 »

a convoy mode would be cool... give one team hmmwvs and cargo trucks (maybe an IFV) and the other team small arms, mines, c4, and some limited AT. Would be lots of fun.

Anti material sniper rifle would be nice to have as well.

I already started a rant on the vodnik a while back, I'll find it later if need be. Basicly i said the HMMWV and VOD needed to be completely closed and the vod needed to be amphibious. Also the vod is more of a cross between an APC and a HMMWV, with the ability to mount a 20mm cannon and deflect most .50 munitions. The vod is a beast indeed.
Of mankind we may say in general they are fickle, hypocritical, and greedy of gain. -Niccolò Machiavelli
KingofCamelot
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Post by KingofCamelot »

2, 3, and 4 are not possible with the BF2 engine. The speedometer might be able to be accomplished, but it would have to be stuck to the HUD which will follow where you look. Mirrors aren't possible in BF2. Gears aren't possible.

Everything else can be taken into consideration, and you do make some good points. Only question i show much time do we really want to spend working on just jeeps? :)
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[T]Terranova7
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Post by [T]Terranova7 »

Of course you do. Honestly the way I see it, working on key gameplay aspects such as jeeps could make the difference between a good and a great mod. I mean you can always add that Blackhawk helicopter, or work on that objective game mode. Chances are though, that another mod or game already have, does and will do the same thing. However its little things such as the suggestion that alot of developers turn a blind eye to. I would want to take it one step at a time, perfect everything ground up ya know :)
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