The discussion in the other thread about Jeep changes has lead to the following ideas coming up:
According to 0.3's pre release statements, heavy jeeps will be replacing light jeeps on most maps as the currreny light jeeps are 'unrealistic', and current heavy jeeps will be adjusted to carry 6 people in total. This is all fair enough, but it's a known fact that jeeps are VERY poorly protection. One proned support guy can kill all the passengers in a Humvee due to its lack of windows. This fact has led many to believe that the changes we need to the jeeps are to make them more enclosed, i.e. a hardtop Humvee, doors on the back of the Vodnik and a hard top Nanjing. The thing is, this spawns more problems. Aren't we just producing super fast APCs if we do this? Well, this seems to be the solution:
The current heavy jeeps will be the new light jeeps. They'll have a total of six places, and we can even increase their speed a bit. Armour will remain the same, though perhaps putting some resistant glass on the vehicles would be reasonable. The weapons on the vehicles will be changed to something that isn't so armour piercing, but can still cut down infantry. Light jeeps vs light jeeps should end up in stalemate, their armour can withstand each other's.
A new vehicle class will be created, a stronger breed of jeeps designed with the strengthened weapons of the PR mod in mind. Let's call it the 'true heavy jeep' class. Heavy jeeps will probably all be the same models as their lighter conterparts, but they'll incorporate all the requested upgrades so they stand a greater chance against opponents on the Battlefield. Their armour will be resistant to the majority of light weapons, but high calibre weapons will be able to affect them. The vehicles will be in a slightly different design. Windows will be removed except for the windscreen. The rear will be enclosed, even on the Vodnik. Because of this enclosure, passenger numbers will be decreased to 4 or 5, and all passengers except the gunner may not fire their weapons. The mounted weapon on the vehicle will remain as .50 calibre, and on some models on some maps a TOW or RPG emplacement could be added, with limited ammunition of course. The vehicle will be slower than a standard jeep, but unlike it's lighter counterpart it's passengers will be safe to the majority of threats on the Battlefield.
So, what does everyone think?
Edit: Here's a summary of what I suggested:
Light Jeep:
Will hold 6 people, regardless of army using it and regardless of real life counterparts. Squads have 6 people, light jeeps can hold 6 people.
Will carry a non-armour piercing cannon, but can still mow down infantry.
All passengers can fire their own weapons from the rear or passenger seats.
All passengers are vulnerable to bullets from some angle, so it's never impossible to shoot them.
The armour is about the same as it is now, though it's more resistant to the guns on other light jeeps.
The vehicle has improved speed from the current heavy jeeps, but still can't compete with the older light jeeps.
Heavy Jeep:
Will hold 4 people, regardless of army using it and regardless of real life counterparts.
Will carry the same cannon current heavy jeeps carry. Able to destroy light jeeps as easy as they do now, but other heavy jeeps won't be so easy. Other models may incorporate a light missile system, but this could be a new feature for new maps.
No passengers can fire their weapons from inside the vehicle, they have a nice interior view of the vehicle and their team mates riding with them.
The only weakspots on these vehicles will be the front windshield and the hole where the gunner stands. Yes, grenades can get.
Stronger armour than present vehicles, resistant to most rifle fire, but heavy rounds harm it as usual. Maybe it can resist one rocket or one of those new SLAM packs, but tanks have no problem.
The vehicle is slightly slower than the present heavy jeep, because of the armour.
Last edited by Malik on 2006-04-29 20:29, edited 1 time in total.
Agreed, it a good medium. I don't mind the passengers being exposed, but currently the Hummer and Nanjing are a little too exposed due to the windows.
I'll edit the 'Protection' section of my thread to link to this as what Is an agreed proposal.
Edit: Forgot to mention, don't attach TOW's to hummers, gives them anti-armour properties which would be unwise. It barely worked in BF:SF and tanks could take more rocket punishment in that.
The 'True Heavy Jeeps' sould be a main focus of a much more durable vehicle capable of surviving explosive ordenance (tank shells, rockets, c4, mines?), and a gun upgrade namely the .50 calibre turret.
Last edited by Solitas on 2006-04-29 17:40, edited 1 time in total.
ME again - I think really feel their is not enough difference to merit having 2 versions.
Games are fun because they take the interesting things in reality and put them together, removing boring this like eating, sleepign and travely 500 miles.
What has been suggested in probaly complely real but i dont feel it will benift gamelpay enough. Their will often be a sitaution where a "light" jeep is being used for attact purposes, driving into serious enemy fire and where "heavy jeeps" will just be used for transport. This will complelty DEFEAT THE PURPOSE of having 2 types and there is almost no way of PREVENTING THIS.
It would be far far more sensible to just have a truck that carries more troops than a light jeep, doing the job it was inteended for alot better but alos considerebly decreasing the chance of it beign used for the "wrong" purpose" due to almost zzero armour.
HOWEVER a slightly adjust HUMVEE would benifit gameplay. These ejustements would include just the following this and nothing ELSE:
- carries 5, 2 front, 2 back, 1 gunner = complete sense and is better for trasport that the semi present version (not .30
- back is covered with same protection as side adn front = simple but very basic protection, no baking stabing and very very realistic, 90 % of humvee are like that most of the time
- 7.62 mm and smaller rpounds can not pass through both the any glass and any wall. But 50 cals round can pass thorugh and hurt men if they hit them.
- PRESENT WINDOW have either one of 3 things done
1 - no change but soldiers cna fire out but they can also duck their head while sitting in chair
2 - a small slit with 70% of window covered, troops cna see out but have it is limited due to small size of slit BUT they are also protect more
3 - bullet proof glass is putting in all the side window, this provides the smae protection as the all the walls.
EXTRA more complex ideas that might not be possible but should be mentioned
- jeep can be destroyed quicker if shot in the engine, even though the armour is the same through out, technically bullets shot at the main body would not stop it but due to gameplay reasons must cause damage. TO maitain both realism and fun gameplay bullets to the engine MUSt disable it faster.
- after a certain number of bullet strikes to any glass, it no longer provedes any proteciton and therefore bullets pass through it. This would not require any changes to the what the glass looks like cos we know how bad the BF2 enign is.
Last edited by Top_Cat_AxJnAt on 2006-04-29 17:57, edited 1 time in total.
'[R-DEV wrote:Rhino']you are asking us to re make all the heavy jeeps from scratch thou
its alot of work to do where that work could be put towards doing v1
If it's a case of time restraint, simply change the current HJ to be a little faster and if possible a weaker turret.
Then add the 'True Hevay Jeep' after 1.0 is released.
After all what we are suggesting is an addition to what we alreayd have I.e somethign that should be added on once the mod is finished.
(I for one am a very patient man)
i just think the current HMMWVs, Nanjings,and Vods should get extra protection for the passengers. The passengers should be enclosed inside the vehicle, not hanging their lets out the back. Even the Vod's passengers are at risk sitting in the back. There is suposed to be a large door there. Most HMMWVs have a hard back on them, and some variants of the Nanjing have a hard top.
Of mankind we may say in general they are fickle, hypocritical, and greedy of gain. -Niccolò Machiavelli
Solitas i aggree, 1 version only,ALL CARRY 5 COS it is either 5 or 7 and 7 is too many. 6 is uneaven in most vehicles and it is alot harder to have 6.
Any MORE POST PLEASE READ MY LONG ONE TO CHECK IT IS NOT A MAJPOR REPEAT! ( 4 up) thanks
To get the old truck ideas started off i suggest that it carries between 7 and 12.
THe reason for such a large range is cos you have to consider different factors:
- squad size, can it transport a whole one, 1 and a half or 2. Each one a different impacations cos you might split a S up and that is bad.
- what is an rediculous number of ppeps to get killed at once.
- how would it effect gamplay, on smaller maps it could mgiht transport a whole team
- what is the reason to use it when there is a more armoured version, that only carries 2 less
Well, my system can be adjusted quite easily, I'm not necessarily saying the true heavy vehicles are restricted to being the same models as their weaker counterparts (i.e. both American jeeps needn't be Humvees, I'm sure there are alternatives the military uses).
When we see the British forces brought into the game I imagine th Land Rover will be used, in which case we can see two variations of that, one opened up version with more speed and more passengers, one closed version with more firepower, just like I said here.
And does anyone know if it's against the EA rules to edit their models, for example making the enclosed versions of the vehicles?
Top _Cat the great wrote:Solitas i aggree, 1 version only,ALL CARRY 5 COS it is either 5 or 7 and 7 is too many. 6 is uneaven in most vehicles and it is alot harder to have 6.
Any MORE POST PLEASE READ MY LONG ONE TO CHECK IT IS NOT A MAJPOR REPEAT! ( 4 up) thanks
Leave it as 6 just to cater to gameplay elements (full squad).
But the truck should be solely for transport, only an idiot would take it into a hostile zone.
Also, read 'Top_Cat the great's' post, read it damnit!
ahh, i wrote a massive post and i got wiped.. noo OK here is an attempt at re- wrting it:
I would like to have 6 but i am not sure how you fit them in a hunvee, appears to have no middle seat when their is a gunner and the "boot" is down. While in the Vodnick it would be uneven to have 6, wioth 3 in the back (excluding gunner), why not jsut add 1 more, make it simetrical. BUT 1 more = 7. AND what is the point of a truck then that carries mabey 3 more when you could have 2 vodnicks that have better armour and a gun or even a APC.
PROBLEM SOLVED- i tryed to mention this earlier: make squad smaller, to 4/5 peeps. THe quick reason is that 6 is hard to control and hard to look after (no denying, dont often have all 6 with you). BUT BUT by adding a squad to squad communcation system 2 squads could cooperate together. THis would be far more flexable and more powerfull that a few very large squads. THE TRUE REASON - it makes transporting people around alot easier, vehicle do not have to be completely desgin around the diffuclyt number of 6, (4 is better that 5 but still, both work). A Hunvee could therefore easily carry a whole squad many many many other veihcles liek the blackhawk could be given 3 more places and they would be able to carry 2 squads.
THe number of options open, become a lot larger and many constraints are remove However as mention above it require a new SL to SL communication system that would be vital .
SO THE MORAL OF THE "STORY" IS THAT EVERY PART OF PR IS LINKED, THE SQUAD SYSTEM HAS AN EFFECT ON VEHICLES AND VEHICLE THEN IN TURN AHVE AN AFFECT ON INFANTRY - sorry about caps lock but i flet it was very important
Last edited by Top_Cat_AxJnAt on 2006-04-29 18:28, edited 1 time in total.
The military truck I suggested would hold two squads. Two up front, 10 in the back, with supplies that resupplied ALL forms of ammuniation and medical supplies. Think of the truck as amobile supply crate that can transport troops. Though you'd need to be a passenger to ge the benefit.
Where-as a Humvee should only re-supply bullets.
Essentially the truck should be seen as a mobile command base, somewhere to go to re-arm and get healed and transport platoons together quickly.
What meaks you think HJs would become APCs? Right now the jeeps can barely take a few shots from a squad armed with some small arms. In terms of all vehicles, I'm hoping they can become a bit more durable by tolerating alot more damamge. We don't need or want open spaces on our humvees, vodniks and nanjings, whats the point? Each map is a battlefield in every sense you'll never know where you will encounter hostilities. Technically we want all of the players inside the vehicle at all times.
APCs already their advantages anyhow. They do infact hold alot more armor, so they probably could withstand anything from 5.45s to .50s. Put one of those roll cages or ERA on some of them to help against RPG attacks as well.
If possible I was thinking to break the six man in a vehicle limit, how about creating a "vehicle" inside the base vehicle. Basically having some compartment in the rear of the vehicle, with maybe six slots. All these slots in this extra compartments are all passengers, meaning you can't access the driver and/or gunner postions from here. You enter this area by approaching the rear of the vehicle and pressing the enter key. While to get in the driver and/or gunner position you approach the front. I still could use an official answer on whether or not this is possible or not. Cause if it is, it could be a useful concept for several vehicle types.
The followign is in large text as to point out it;s importance to me and PR as a whole
THIS IS TOP CATS CONCLUSION and is what i would love adn believe is the only answer
1) - 1 type of hunvee, carries 5, has a boot and and either type of side window mentioned here: http://realitymod.com/forum/t5608-p-new ... hread.html - 4 post down. Has either a 50 cal or 30 cal and there would be NO TOW version. It provides bullets.
2) - 1 type of vodnick, carries 7, has a door on the back with a window, the side windows have bullet proof glass in them. It has either a 50 cal or 30 cal. It provide bullets.
2) - A truck, carries 12, provide very limited protection from 7.62 rounds with bullet proof front window and a small side wall protecting lower back of soldier sitting in the back, has no roof. It provides all types of ammo and health.
THIS A PERFECT BALANCE. It is repeated from what others siad above but it is also what i belvie to be RIGHT AND REALISTIC!!!!! good day, i thank also those for helpign me come to this conclusion.
Terranova, i like you idea very very much. As you said, all APC's should be able to carry a whole squad. The question as to number of pilots for APC's and TAnks is another question and should be avoided unless absolutely relavent.
Last edited by Top_Cat_AxJnAt on 2006-04-29 19:41, edited 1 time in total.
I don't think 30 cals are used anymore. If anything for the U.S lower caliber type weapons you might want to look at the M240, fire 7.62mm as opposed to 12.7mm (.50), or just the M249 SAW.
LOL, some of those Hunvees are crazy. Sorry when i said 30cal i jsut meant a machine gun wiht a calibre around 7.5mm, personnaly i would not like a SAW because its round is too light and a more powerfull 7.62mm would have almost no disavatages and would only have a positive effect on gameplay.
But do you agree with my conclustion, what parts not, i am pretty much asking for your overall opnion on the 3 aspecks i looked!?!
thanks,
P.S we should consider a the automatic grenade launcher instead of a machine gun, it could actually serve a purpose on the battlefield!
Top _Cat the great wrote:1) - 1 type of hunvee, carries 5, has a boot and and either type of side window mentioned here: http://realitymod.com/forum/t5608-p-new-jeep-ideas-seperate-thread.html - 4 post down. Has either a 50 cal or 30 cal and there would be NO TOW version. It provides bullets.
2) - 1 type of vodnick, carries 7, has a door on the back with a window, the side windows have bullet proof glass in them. It has either a 50 cal or 30 cal. It provide bullets.
3) - A truck, carries 12, provide very limited protection from 7.62 rounds with bullet proof front window and a small side wall protecting lower back of soldier sitting in the back, has no roof. It provides all types of ammo and health.
I agree with the amount of troops the vehicles can carry. Although I'm sure theres plenty room for many varaints. A humvee armed with a TOW system could helpful on open ended maps, if PR intends on implementing any. Worked pretty well in both Desert Combat and Point of Existence 1.
Lets not forget people that not every vehicle should or is going to be on every single map. If we implement a humvee armed with a TOW missile system, I'm sure the PR mappers aren't going to have it placed on Strike at Karkand or something. Something that could help on vehicle oriented maps to help against a constant APC, IFV and/or tank threat.
Or, you could stick with my more practial conclusion. You're suggesting the devs recreate all the vehicles so they're more effective. I suggest one vehicle set is made heavily based on the heavy jeeps to serve a different purpose altogether. All the bullet proof glass and special windows makes no real difference to the vehicle, it just wastes dev time. Let me clarify what I suggested:
Light Jeep:
Will hold 6 people, regardless of army using it and regardless of real life counterparts. Squads have 6 people, light jeeps can hold 6 people.
Will carry a non-armour piercing cannon, but can still mow down infantry.
All passengers can fire their own weapons from the rear or passenger seats.
All passengers are vulnerable to bullets from some angle, so it's never impossible to shoot them.
The armour is about the same as it is now, though it's more resistant to the guns on other light jeeps.
The vehicle has improved speed from the current heavy jeeps, but still can't compete with the older light jeeps.
Heavy Jeep:
Will hold 4 people, regardless of army using it and regardless of real life counterparts.
Will carry the same cannon current heavy jeeps carry. Able to destroy light jeeps as easy as they do now, but other heavy jeeps won't be so easy. Other models may incorporate a light missile system, but this could be a new feature for new maps.
No passengers can fire their weapons from inside the vehicle, they have a nice interior view of the vehicle and their team mates riding with them.
The only weakspots on these vehicles will be the front windshield and the hole where the gunner stands. Yes, grenades can get.
Stronger armour than present vehicles, resistant to most rifle fire, but heavy rounds harm it as usual. Maybe it can resist one rocket or one of those new SLAM packs, but tanks have no problem.
The vehicle is slightly slower than the present heavy jeep, because of the armour.
Malik wrote:Or, you could stick with my more practial conclusion. You're suggesting the devs recreate all the vehicles so they're more effective. I suggest one vehicle set is made heavily based on the heavy jeeps to serve a different purpose altogether. All the bullet proof glass and special windows makes no real difference to the vehicle, it just wastes dev time. Let me clarify what I suggested:
Light Jeep:
Will hold 6 people, regardless of army using it and regardless of real life counterparts. Squads have 6 people, light jeeps can hold 6 people.
Will carry a non-armour piercing cannon, but can still mow down infantry.
All passengers can fire their own weapons from the rear or passenger seats.
All passengers are vulnerable to bullets from some angle, so it's never impossible to shoot them.
The armour is about the same as it is now, though it's more resistant to the guns on other light jeeps.
The vehicle has improved speed from the current heavy jeeps, but still can't compete with the older light jeeps.
Heavy Jeep:
Will hold 4 people, regardless of army using it and regardless of real life counterparts.
Will carry the same cannon current heavy jeeps carry. Able to destroy light jeeps as easy as they do now, but other heavy jeeps won't be so easy. Other models may incorporate a light missile system, but this could be a new feature for new maps.
No passengers can fire their weapons from inside the vehicle, they have a nice interior view of the vehicle and their team mates riding with them.
The only weakspots on these vehicles will be the front windshield and the hole where the gunner stands. Yes, grenades can get.
Stronger armour than present vehicles, resistant to most rifle fire, but heavy rounds harm it as usual. Maybe it can resist one rocket or one of those new SLAM packs, but tanks have no problem.
The vehicle is slightly slower than the present heavy jeep, because of the armour.
You realize that even making new varients of these vehicles will force the Devs to creat a whole new set of models and skins. If we need more transportation needs, then they might as well make something unique.
Of mankind we may say in general they are fickle, hypocritical, and greedy of gain. -Niccolò Machiavelli
I don't think that concept is needed though. Realistic wise a standard Humvee could carry five at a minimum. Why would you limit it to four? What I suggested damage wise was that bullets just don't "wither" away the jeep's health. Basically standard bullets will penetrate or not, if it penetrates it hurts or possibly kills a player inside. With RPG type weapons the rocket pierces the armor, and more than likely injures or kills one or two occupants inside.
If we can place weak spots on the vehicles, a few 12.7mm rounds to the engine should disable the vehicle. If a bullet penetrates the tank it should explode partially. Speed should always remain the same with HJs as well.
