Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

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USA-Forever932
Posts: 113
Joined: 2009-02-03 21:23

Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by USA-Forever932 »

There are a few problems with PR that I have seen. I have come up with a list of these problems and some remedies for them.
Problems wrote: 1. Pilots or crewmen never, ever bail out of vehicles that are burning.
2. Firefights take place too fast, squads usually blast at each other in the open in incredibly close range fights.
Solutions wrote: 1. Increase the incentive for pilots and crewmen to escape their vehicles before death by manipulating the ticket system. The 10 ticket rule will only apply if the pilot dies while inside the vehicle. Torufkeymeister's realistic helicopter crash https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f254...ion-video.html is implemented then we will see a lot of these moments. This will provide even more incentive for players to escape their vehicles before they actually switch to their destroyed model.

2. Change level design. I know this is a really big thing to say but one of the main problems I see with firefights is that most of the players are often far exposed when moving about. Especially in Urban maps, there is practically nothing in the street to protect players from bullets. This often has them clustering up behind cars and along side buildings to find cover. What I'm suggesting maybe as a modification and a template for future levels is to adopt a system close to that of Full Spectrum Warrior. Full spectrum warrior had streets that shared an abundance of things to hide behind. The way the gameplay worked where the most effective way to combat the enemy was to flank him or use weapons like grenades. The only times where they used wide open streets was to create choke points and areas specifically made for vehicle use or choke points.

If you look at urban maps like sunset city and Muttrah, you see a lot of big open spaces that are ripe to mow down infantry in. My suggestion to give infantry a fighting chance is to design future levels with more obstacles to hide behind to give more of an emphasis on heavy weapons as a support to remove infantry from cover as well as providing a bigger enticement to send flanking teams (Again, one of the main tactics of Full Spectrum was to suppress and flank to gain the upper hand)

All I'm suggesting is a minor tweak of the levels to include more cover in dense areas and wide spaces. I know it's a reality mod and cover shouldn't be that abundant in streets like this. But some rubble, a few turned over broken cars, some cinder blocks to hide behind or something more than what is offered will bring out my suggestion fully. My suggestion is a lighter version of the old map Ejod Desert. In the old version, the flag West city, (the city flag closest to the MEC side) had a street with an abundance of cover. If this street was perhaps a bit longer, I could imagine some serious firefights involving long range support from each team's vehicles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bW0D57aeto[/youtube] (skip to about 2:00)

I hope nothing I said was too bad. I don't really have the resources to upload some screen shots of what I mean but I will do so later unless I get shot down.

-What do you guys think?
nick20404
Posts: 1746
Joined: 2007-06-30 23:36

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by nick20404 »

Welcome to the forums, one you already lose tickets when you lose the tank/apc so losing even more just because your inside will not help anything, I would say 90% of noobs don't even realize that vehicles cost tickets when you lose them. Besides that it depends on how damaged you are, I have had my apc on fire but it just stay on fire for 20 minutes till I got repairs, Other times they will just blow up instantly without giving you time to get out.

on your other note that is a problem with people, like I have said many times new players doing new player stuff should not affect how the game is played in the long run, I have had firefights last for along time, your problem is a problem of circumstance, realistically firefights could last 5 minutes or an hour that's just how it goes.
USA-Forever932
Posts: 113
Joined: 2009-02-03 21:23

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by USA-Forever932 »

I'm afraid you misunderstood. The idea is to move tickets from
Situation A: Vehicle gets blown up -10 tickets.
to
Situation B: Vehicle gets blown up but the ticket loss is only incurred if there was a crewman/pilot inside.

Not only will this help with bailouts, but it will help when players decided to drive Big Reds into USA main on Archer and cause USA to lose some 30 tickets because everybody was outside fighting. The idea is to have blowing up an idle huey in base turn into -30 tickets if you get a bunch into just having USA wait for more choppers rather than lose 30 tickets.

Whenever I play a map, I usually run an infantry, APC or mech infantry squad. I can keep a pretty tight knit on my members but I usually never see any cinematic firefights. They are usually just close quarters battles that don't provide much room to flank. When ever I see a firefight last 10 minutes or longer is just because the people in the firefight have good medics or have a rally point and bunker and are practically spamming one another with soldiers.

The idea between adding more cover is NOT to clutter the map with a swarm of objects to make people lag, nor am I asking for each map to be redone. I simply suggesting a bit more cover like in the later levels of FSW. They managed to keep the open streets but they retained cars, boxes, and other things to hide behind. It worked really well for the close in to long range firefights as teams suppress and flank. The game's mechanics change in no way whatsoever. The root of this suggestion comes from all of the wonderful theories that appear in the tactics section that I never see applied except in extreme cases. Adding more cover will reward the squads that stick to "leapfrogging" between cover points in hot environments because they will be more ready for an engagement. I'm not saying PR levels are bad, I'm just offering a suggesting to help the levels fit better with Gameplay.
DankE_SPB
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 3678
Joined: 2008-09-30 22:29

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by DankE_SPB »

Situation A: Vehicle gets blown up -10 tickets.
to
Situation B: Vehicle gets blown up but the ticket loss is only incurred if there was a crewman/pilot inside.
nearly nobody care about tickets or just dont know about ticket loss from destroying vehicles, its obvious on maps like Op Baraccuda or Muttrah City, when US manage to take some positions on shore, pilots keep flying all over the island, add here a lot of choppers and you will see how your tickets go from ~150 to 10 in 3 minutes :-(
and your system is easily exploited, bail out, press suicide button :-P same effect as not bailing out
nick20404
Posts: 1746
Joined: 2007-06-30 23:36

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by nick20404 »

The role tickets are sposta play for vehicles are the fact that irl the military doesn't have infinite apcs and tanks, so once so many tanks and apcs are destroyed regardless of if anyone is in them they will lose all there assets and eventually have to pull out aka lose.

the idea of all the apcs and tanks being in main and them losing there tickets is a realistic thing and the base should be guarded from attacks and ambushes, and people should be using the assets.

That is how insurgents have to win is to cripple the other teams supplys and forces, and they have to do the same to the insurgents so it would only unbalance the game and make it easier for the other forces to win.
Expendable Grunt
Posts: 4730
Joined: 2007-03-09 01:54

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by Expendable Grunt »

You make some valid points, bravo. However, I have some problems with a few points you make.

First, streets *are* open areas devoid of clutter. This is why we bother building them. Changing level design to look like uncanny valley is the wrong approach.

Second, your link and video are both broken.

M.
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Former [DM] captain.

The fact that people are poor or discriminated against doesn't necessarily endow them with any special qualities of justice, nobility, charity or compassion. - Saul Alinsky
99lynx
Posts: 75
Joined: 2007-11-26 03:04

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by 99lynx »

nick20404 wrote:Welcome to the forums, one you already lose tickets when you lose the tank/apc so losing even more just because your inside will not help anything, I would say 90% of noobs don't even realize that vehicles cost tickets when you lose them. Besides that it depends on how damaged you are, I have had my apc on fire but it just stay on fire for 20 minutes till I got repairs, Other times they will just blow up instantly without giving you time to get out.

on your other note that is a problem with people, like I have said many times new players doing new player stuff should not affect how the game is played in the long run, I have had firefights last for along time, your problem is a problem of circumstance, realistically firefights could last 5 minutes or an hour that's just how it goes.
I have personally had a firefight between my squad and the enemy squad that lasted 15 minutes, and another that lasted 25.

The problem is... No matter how realistic the game is, you cannot make the punishment for stupid rushing moves as bad as actually dying... In that respect people will simply rush the enemy which ruins the firefight in terms of legnth and tactics... this is because people realise that they can just spawn again in 30 seconds, whoopeee... unfortunately you also cannot increase the respawn time, any longer, yes the punishement is worse but the game would lose a lot of its fun level... and a lot of players would leave.
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wookimonsta
Posts: 681
Joined: 2008-08-31 13:16

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by wookimonsta »

i don't know why everyone wants these long, drawn out firefights.
i always try to avoid these in game, and this usually works because everyone else WANTS to get involved in these firefights, and my enemies usually get tunnel vision towards whatever they are shooting at. that allows me to sneak around, flank em, and take em out with a well placed grenade.
and i don't mean rushing either, there is a time and a place for rushing, usually under a lot of covering fire and smoke.
but lets face it, flanking the enemy gives you the advantage and ends the firefight usually in your favour
master of the templars
Posts: 598
Joined: 2007-06-26 21:37

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by master of the templars »

The reasons fights are so short is that no one really cares about hiding/finding cover/retreating its just click click click until one bunch or the other all die
Make nukes, Not war
Rudd
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 21225
Joined: 2007-08-15 14:32

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by Rudd »

Situation B: Vehicle gets blown up but the ticket loss is only incurred if there was a crewman/pilot inside.
I actually agree with this, it gives 2 incentives, 1) for the pilot to survive (go give him his pistol back now please) and 2) (the MORE important one) an incentive to the Team to rescue him.

The rest is pretty undoable.

But Rhino has said repeatedly that muttrah was not 100% finished when he released it, he is gonna add clutter to the streets hopefully by .9.
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Rhino
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 47909
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Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by Rhino »

welcome to the forums USA-Forever932.

Some valid points, although I don't 100% agree with your ideas on how to stop / cut down on pilots / crewman not bailing out you did trigger an idea for me that would that I've put the rest of the devs.

As for muttrah, ye I agree, not enough cover in the streets, I never got round to adding the small detail like benches etc you could use for cover to the streets but am planning to some time in the future :)
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USA-Forever932
Posts: 113
Joined: 2009-02-03 21:23

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by USA-Forever932 »

Well, maybe my points weren't clear enough. I didn't mean that many objects. I was just saying that makers should add Benches, destroyed cars, doodads and other stuff for us to hide behind. What Rhino said about Muttrah was right on the money with what I was asking. Now about sunset...
Rhino
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 47909
Joined: 2005-12-13 20:00

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by Rhino »

Sunset hasn't got much life left in PR tbh, was made for like v.4 or .5 and only reason why its stayed in PR for so long since its our only Chinese urban map.
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USA-Forever932
Posts: 113
Joined: 2009-02-03 21:23

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by USA-Forever932 »

I actually enjoy sunset. I seem to be able to get small Humvee squads to work well on it. I know some nice place for firebases and the 'massive flag in the center' kind of thing allows a free form style for approaching and taking control of the objective. I especially love it with the APCs gone, USA side should have Attack littlebird to match the Chinese Littlebird. Wish it was played more.

You'll notice that most of the maps I offer constructive criticism too are my favorites.
503
Posts: 679
Joined: 2008-08-30 02:53

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by 503 »

Why not just give pilots a much longer respawn time. Makes them want to bail out more, and people might not wanna paratroop anymore or at least as much and with this you could even give the pilot his pistol back.
gclark03
Posts: 1591
Joined: 2007-11-05 02:01

Re: Bailing out and Infantry Tactics

Post by gclark03 »

Sunset v2 would be very nice.

On topic, certain kits - Officer, crewman, pilot, sniper - should yield higher ticket and respawn time penalties than normal.
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