A possible solution to Class Limitations

OverwatchX · Post by **OverwatchX** » 2006-05-20 07:25

Here's a possible temporary solution:

There could be slightly higher respawn times for certain classes.

-Assault: 25 secs to respawn
-Engineer, Medic & Spec Ops: 35 secs
-SAW & AT: 45 secs
-Sniper: 50 secs

This way, all classes are still available but those who choose them and all of their extra benefits, have to wait longer to respawn making them less attractive especially to noobs, smacktards, and mega-class changing whores. More players would in theory want to respawn as Assault thus staying away from the specialty units or playing them more realistically.

hop_ic · Post by **hop_ic** » 2006-05-20 07:29

If the snipers spawn in 50 sec then they should get a more accurate and powerful gun.

[BiM]Black7 · Post by **[BiM]Black7** » 2006-05-20 08:12

hop_ic wrote:If the snipers spawn in 50 sec then they should get a more accurate and powerful gun.

Right as there not accuret enuf now? i easely hit 8 out of 10 shoots now with the new sniper settings

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-20 09:55

Well if they're treated as the 'supreme class' they should be hitting 10 out of 10 shots, and at least lose the ghile suit on urban maps. I favoured the old accuracy settings from vBF2 more than the current ones, if I aimed for the head I hit the head. Now if I aim for the head I miss, and it's down to trial and error to hit the target. M24 vs SVD used to be a breeze, but now you can't beat them because they just keep popping new shots at you while you're continuously chambering new rounds, and they're a lot more likely to hit you.

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-20 15:04

Our spawn times are already pretty high .. not too big on this idea. It also goes against trying to get squads to stick and play togther.

Going to continue to look to the community and the dev team for ideas here.

Right now.... am leaning towards a simple method of making it so that certain classes cannot capture flags.

And continuing to look into possibilities for class limiting.

egg

Pence · Post by **Pence** » 2006-05-20 15:06

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']Our spawn times are already pretty high .. not too big on this idea. It also goes against trying to get squads to stick and play togther.

Going to continue to look to the community and the dev team for ideas here.

Right now.... am leaning towards a simple method of making it so that certain classes cannot capture flags.

And continuing to look into possibilities for class limiting.

egg

The sniper class is the only class (at the moment) that needs to be limited.

Post by **eggman** » 2006-05-20 15:30

Pence wrote:The sniper class is the only class (at the moment) that needs to be limited.

That's also another simpler thought... just limiting a specific class is a lot easier than limiting all classes.

I do think the Sniper class is the most commonly abused / overused class in BF2. With new toys there in PR more kiddies have come out to play. Might be an easier experiment to toy with limiting just a specific class than designing a robust system to limit all classes (when generally I would agree that it's not a total class system issue... just a couple of classes are being overused).

egg

S.O.P · Post by **S.O.P** » 2006-05-20 15:50

Pence wrote:The sniper class is the only class (at the moment) that needs to be limited.

I disagree. I just came off a pub game and more than half of the opposing team were Support. Camping (which is fine), instaproning (which is terrible) were the flavour of the night.

I do appreciate that the RPK/SAW LMGs are fantastically accurate in RL but something needs to be done about their abuse. Flanking one or two Support guys is alright, but when everyone you meet is a pronediving support guy, it can wear very, very thin.

Edit: And I think you will find that player that chooses the support kit, is the player that doesn't really want to challenge themselves with the aiming etc (dare I say 'noob'). I picked up a few downed kits and even if you point in their general direction and spam, you can be guaranteed that the recoil will end up putting a couple of bullets into their body.

trogdor1289 · Post by **trogdor1289** » 2006-05-20 16:42

Again this is where the class limiting will come in to hopefull remove the overuse of support and sniper classes. A simple but really restrictve policy will be to force everyone to join a squad and let the SL dish out the support and sniper kits. This of course brings up many other issues namely people making squads just to have kits and SL's playing favorites and the inevitable complaing when people don't get the kit they want.

OverwatchX · Post by **OverwatchX** » 2006-05-20 20:20

Lets not forget about the AT class popping up en masse when armor shows up. That is so old and tired. Really.

With that being said, the respawn times up there could be adjusted. Dont look at the times I propose and say..oh thats too long...so the idea is bad. Perhaps the assault respawn time could be dropped to 15 seconds...with others coming down slightly as well. Its just a temp fix anyway as Im all for hard coded class limitations.

And again, there are plenty of games out there and mods that limit classes and they have a large fanbase and do very well. Heck, one could argue that even Counterstrike kept the noobs from getting the expensive guns unless they played responsibly (not a CS fan myself). Didnt hurt their fanbase even though CS isnt directly analguous.

<<SpanishSurfer>> · Post by **<<SpanishSurfer>>** » 2006-05-20 21:19

'[R-DEV wrote:eggman']That's also another simpler thought... just limiting a specific class is a lot easier than limiting all classes.

I do think the Sniper class is the most commonly abused / overused class in BF2. With new toys there in PR more kiddies have come out to play. Might be an easier experiment to toy with limiting just a specific class than designing a robust system to limit all classes (when generally I would agree that it's not a total class system issue... just a couple of classes are being overused).

egg

Why not try and limit sniper, AT, and support by creating a type of armory at the home base. Treat those three kits like vehicles (Can't respawn until the user who has it is dead and after 1 min of non-use the kit disappears and respawns at base).

Or just limit those three kits to say 10% Sniper, 20% Support, and 20% AT.

Let me know what you fellas think!

Post by **NikovK** » 2006-05-20 21:58

Fixing insta-proning would solve my only remaining problems until the unlock system is cracked.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-20 23:00

Work really hard and add some new assault rifles or something, that'll stop everyone using the sniper kit for a while.

I don't like the pickup kit idea, I don't want to be restricted to what I use because some jackass is taking the sniper kit too often. I use whatever kit the Squad Leader asks me to use, and other times I just use my common sense. If we've got a sniper shooting at us I inform the squad I'll take the sniper role and will spawn as it.

As I said somewhere, the best way to solve these problems is to see what differs with the game and real life. Why doesn't everyone in the army use the Sniper kit?

It's difficult to master. In PRMM, it's simple.
The equipment used is harder to come by and more expensive. In PRMM there are no restrictions on equipment used.
People follow orders and do the job they're assigned to. In PRMM, doing what the Commander or Squad Leader says is optional.

Solution? Well, the first thing would be to make sniping harder, i.e. add sway. Secondly, add a point and/or ticket penalty for valuable kits, just as is with vehicles. You pick the AT kit you lose tickets, you lose the AT kit you lose points. Another way would be to have kits distributed by the Squad Leaders or Commander. Perhaps putting valuable kits in supply crates would work, therefore they do more than act as target practise.

Doedel · Post by **Doedel** » 2006-05-21 02:18

I think you should look at two (relatively) similar games: Forgotten Hope (as it's a realism mod) and America's Army (for obvious reasons).

In FH they used an ingenious method of having different kits on every map depending on what year the map takes place in, etc, and they also had more specialized and rare kits spawned all over the damned place; in main bases, at flags, sometimes in the middle of nowhere.

In America's Army you're fixed to having a certain number of certain types of kits; ie, two Sniper slots and two M249 slots, and one M16 w/ M203 slot. Everyone else had M16's.

In both games it worked well. FH is still extremely popular (and extremely fun) and sure, sometimes you get annoyed that someone else took the Sniper rifle or the flamethrower, but if you waited it would come. In AA it was the same. Sometimes you'd have a hard time grabbing that 18Z, but if you had patience you know you'd get it. It didn't limit gameplay at all, it enhanced it, as everyone played the role of the kit they had and it required more teamwork and (dare I say it) tactical gameplay. Because certain kits and weapons were limited, those using it were usually skilled and took the kit seriously (except on occasions where some nubber would happen upon the kit and be like "OMFG PANZERSCHREK").

One last point, having no limits on kits and weapons can lead to some other trouble, namely, unrealistic weapons... you'll tend to "dumb" weapons down a lot, as having an unlimited amount of really powerful and efficient weapons is going to really throw the gameplay off balance (ie, the Anti-Tank missiles and their apparent incredible weakness against armour. Which is understandable - if the Eryx/Dragon could eliminate armour in a maximum of two hits ingame it would almost entirely negate the purpose of having armour at all. Although, while I'm on that subject, giving the AT kit only a pistol is kind of a good idea -- I can't count how many times I've been playing and there were absolutely no AT kits, and some piece of armour would roll up an annihilate everything. Nobody wants to run around with a pistol and a giant two-shot missile launcher)

Armand61685 · Post by **Armand61685** » 2006-05-21 09:20

Doedel wrote:I think you should look at two (relatively) similar games: Forgotten Hope (as it's a realism mod) and America's Army (for obvious reasons).

In FH they used an ingenious method of having different kits on every map depending on what year the map takes place in, etc, and they also had more specialized and rare kits spawned all over the damned place; in main bases, at flags, sometimes in the middle of nowhere.

In America's Army you're fixed to having a certain number of certain types of kits; ie, two Sniper slots and two M249 slots, and one M16 w/ M203 slot. Everyone else had M16's.

In both games it worked well. FH is still extremely popular (and extremely fun) and sure, sometimes you get annoyed that someone else took the Sniper rifle or the flamethrower, but if you waited it would come. In AA it was the same. Sometimes you'd have a hard time grabbing that 18Z, but if you had patience you know you'd get it. It didn't limit gameplay at all, it enhanced it, as everyone played the role of the kit they had and it required more teamwork and (dare I say it) tactical gameplay. Because certain kits and weapons were limited, those using it were usually skilled and took the kit seriously (except on occasions where some nubber would happen upon the kit and be like "OMFG PANZERSCHREK").

One last point, having no limits on kits and weapons can lead to some other trouble, namely, unrealistic weapons... you'll tend to "dumb" weapons down a lot, as having an unlimited amount of really powerful and efficient weapons is going to really throw the gameplay off balance (ie, the Anti-Tank missiles and their apparent incredible weakness against armour. Which is understandable - if the Eryx/Dragon could eliminate armour in a maximum of two hits ingame it would almost entirely negate the purpose of having armour at all. Although, while I'm on that subject, giving the AT kit only a pistol is kind of a good idea -- I can't count how many times I've been playing and there were absolutely no AT kits, and some piece of armour would roll up an annihilate everything. Nobody wants to run around with a pistol and a giant two-shot missile launcher)

I love AA's system. Absolutely flawless. PR should get ideas from AA.

OverwatchX · Post by **OverwatchX** » 2006-05-21 21:08

Malik wrote:
I don't like the pickup kit idea, I don't want to be restricted to what I use because some jackass is taking the sniper kit too often. I use whatever kit the Squad Leader asks me to use, and other times I just use my common sense. If we've got a sniper shooting at us I inform the squad I'll take the sniper role and will spawn as it.

No offense here Malik but you epitomize, with this comment, exactly the type of BF2 player that I think puts neon lights around CLASS LIMITATIONS NEEDED. This spawning in whatever class suits you in order to deal with a situation best is so freaking lame, and so detracts from realism, that it really hurts reality in this mod (for me).

You have a problem with a sniper so you spawn in as a sniper! SHEEEESH! Argh I detest that. Then when the tank shows up, guess who respawns as an AT?? Malik and about 10-20 clones. Whatever.

luizinhuu · Post by **luizinhuu** » 2006-05-21 21:18

why limitate kits? it seems to me that the use of the kits is very balanced on 0.3!

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-21 21:21

JohnDoeGamer wrote:No offense here Malik but you epitomize, with this comment, exactly the type of BF2 player that I think puts neon lights around CLASS LIMITATIONS NEEDED. This spawning in whatever class suits you in order to deal with a situation best is so freaking lame, and so detracts from realism, that it really hurts reality in this mod (for me).

You have a problem with a sniper so you spawn in as a sniper! SHEEEESH! Argh I detest that. Then when the tank shows up, guess who respawns as an AT?? Malik and about 10-20 clones. Whatever.

I think you should hold your tongue until you've played with me, rather than make presumptions based on one statement I made. I never play AT, ever, because I'm no good at it. I play the sniper kit when it's appropriate because it's my best kit, but I only use it when there's a real need for it.

I loved sniping in vBF2, but I as much as anyone recognise the need to use other kits on occasion. I spend most of my rounds these days playing as a medic. I hate being a medic, I hate having to clear up the mess my team have made by reviving them and putting myself in danger by coming to everyone's rescue, but I do it while I watch half the team snipe. Sometimes I wish I could just not revive all those dead players on my team with a crosshair on their gymsack, but no, I do it anyway. Then, when the situation is right and I feel the team's balanced enough I do like to get the sniper kit out.

The main concern I have with these class limitations is that I won't be able to do that any more. It seems everyone's geared up to class limitations cancelling out all the snipers, but how do we decide who're actually going to be the snipers on each team? I make one statement indicating that I use the sniper class and that's enough for you to decide I'm 'just another sniper' and you hate me like the rest of them.

You're not asking for class limitations, you're asking to get rid of the snipers. What else are you supposed to do when a tank shows up other than use AT? Shall we all spawn as assault and fire grenades at it because that's the non noob thing to do? I think not, a squad will decide that someone should use the AT kit. When a sniper turns up and a squad has no sniper in (because a medic is of greater importance) sometimes it's necessary to call in a sniper, and that just so happens to be me most of the time. Whatever.

Cerberus · Post by **Cerberus** » 2006-05-21 23:16

luizinhuu wrote:why limitate kits? it seems to me that the use of the kits is very balanced on 0.3!

In real life, snipers should not make up 15-30% of a platoon-sized element.

twisted · Post by **twisted** » 2006-05-22 02:01

i liike the idea of restricting the amount of kits per squad.

that way you can have unlimited assualt, max 2 support, max 1 sniper, 2 engineers, 2 medics, and 2 AT per sqaud.

now the argument agaisnt this would be that everyone would just open a new squad to get the kit they want. well, that's a good thing. thanks to the great respawn system in prmm people tend to join squads to respawn on the squad leader. so that will balance the 1 man squad rush and you'd end up with a bunch of 3-4 men squads attacking the enemy from all directions.

hell knows where SF belongs. probably in a squad of there own but how to do that?