0.3 first impressions - my thoughts (detailed), suggestions...

[-g00nie-]

First I want to say that I love the idea behind PR. I was very excited to hear about some of the ideas (especially extraction). I like organized team play with good communication and PR tends to foster that. However, there are a few things that I feel will hamper the growth and success of PR. These are minor (and some major) suggestions and things I noticed on pubs. I’m taking my time to write detailed suggestions/critiques because I really want this mod to be the best it can be. Yes I know the load screen shows the map but a secondary solution is so much easier and clear I dont see why its not made. Remember people may be deciding if they like the mod or not based on their first 25-30min of play.



1. On AAS maps you can sometimes get confused on which target to hit next. They zigzag back and forth and unless you have played it a lot you can get confused. Now I know this is a noob mistake and some will say it’s not an issue, but for a NEW PLAYER checking out PR it can be a source of confusion. If your commander is aware of this and always places an “attack here” icon in the target that’s next it helps – this is always the case though. Simply adding a number or a letter (A, B, C) to the target names to show order. This would really help out with disorientation on pubs. A player should be able to plop down in the middle of action and know EXACTLY what mode is being played and/or exactly what Target is next in order. This is a MUST for this mod to get going faster. I noticed it went much smoother in AAS on small Oman because it was very easy and clear cut to tell which was next because they didn’t jump around so much.


2. Extraction – this was probably the biggest letdown in the mod. I don’t know how many of you guys played quake Team Fortress or TFC (hell even CS had VIP maps that I liked) but The Hunted President/VIP maps were fun as hell. Getting a VIP from point A to B in BF2 sounded like a blast. Sadly, it fell apart on a pub server and hardly had any order. There was little mic communication and it broke down to everyone camping the bottleneck on Karkand just before reaching the safe point. The reason why Hunted Pres worked well is because everyone knew it was a choice of 3 or maybe 4 routes. You had at least 2 routes w/ no bottlenecks. The offense and defense could stake out positions and go from there. In this incarnation it just gets real confused and breaks down. Half of the team was dead before they even got close to the Hotel on Karkand. Hell, you were lucky to make it across the river. You can gaurd bridge and water with 1 AT kit. It doesn’t have to be like this and Extraction has potential to be the coolest thing in PR. The VIP team's (only this side) commander should be able to call out (highlight) enemies on his map. This is the only way to balance it a little. This way the VIP can change course and protection can react. As it is with 1 AT hit the SUV blows and its VERY hard (impossible) when playing decent people. Everyone should spawn together in one spot with VIP and 1 player should literally be the VIP (like in TF). A random VIP is auto selected from the team each round. Then there should be 1 more spawn toward the middle of the map. This way you can either setup proactive defense or choose to travel along with the VIP.The VIP can get out and go on foot but he’s limited to very slow (walk) speed and can hardly take any damage. He could have a handgun with 1 clip or nothing. He can bail out of the SUV just before it explodes and try to escape on foot (slim chance unless hes super close). He can also get into a hummer/jeep but he cant gun or get into anything else. This way its more dynamic than just blowing an SUV. The driver of the SUV vehicle only should also be able to use 3rd person camera view so he can see people running up behind the car. You are pretty much blind in a vehicle first person. But ONLY the SUV driver has this ability. Enemy (non VIP) snipers should be able to use the M95 so they can penetrate glass and kill the VIP. This mode needs work but it could be VERY fun and cool with some focused changes and a decent map designed for it. As it is we are seeing only about 30% potential of what this mode could be. If extraction is done right it will be the most popular thing since sliced bread. In the dying stages of TF hunted president maps were always a fan favorite. This could be amazing and honestly its the part that excites me most about PR.

3. SO - This was very chaotic on a pub with some new people. Large Single Objective maps are boring and slow. Everyone tends to stay around their targets defending or else attacking and a huge map is just pointless. I recently played on a full size Oman SO map and it was a joke. New players were capping flags and so on. This ties in with #1. The mode and targets should be easy to figure out in-game. Perhaps it could be added to the map. In SO I dont even think there should be more capture points. Just 1 for each team thats close to base parhaps. And then another home spawn with vehicles and their targets (the objectives) - a main base if you will. The only way SO can be cool is if the maps are medium to small and the action is intense. Strong Defense should be the key to this. In SO the amount of C4 hits should be reduced. If a team is half decent its very easy to stop spec ops from planting c4 with 3-4 defenders. They will be lucky to get to it once let alone multiple times. I’m not sure what the damage breaks down to but a spec op was bitching because he planted 2 or 3 c4 and it didn’t blow. If they get through your defense twice and plant you should lose. Again, when I was playing on the pub half the people didn’t know wtf was going on. You should have 1 spawn point at your base (with your targets). Like if it was CTF. Then you can attack or defend. Again, maps need to be smaller and more simple for intense action.

4. Bring back kill messages. I understand this mod is about reducing the "me" and focusing more on the team. Its not about personal accomplishments but team strategy and objectives. If so then why even bother with the ABR stats then? I still don’t feel that simply showing who killed you or who you killed hurts this ideal. There is already so many things that are done to change the idea of the game to a more team focused one. I like to know who keeps owning me. I also like to see when I kill someone. If someone takes the time to download PR and play it they know what its goal is anyway. All the other changes help focus the objective away from massive point whoring and a "me" mentality. I don’t think bringing back kill messages will suddenly make people go rogue. I understand it’s also about REALISM but this is just one of those things that makes it less fun IMO. Its not realistic but I think its one thing that should stay. It’s so impersonal when you don’t know who you killed or who killed you. It sort of takes the fun out a well planned attack or a neat move that makes the victim say “woah who was that”. If you kill 4 people in a row its nice for your teammates to also know you are doing a good job.

5. Bring back crosshairs - I know this is a touchy one. Some weapons are much easier to aim and line up the iron sights. Others have obtrusive (block view) or difficult sites that are hard to line up and judge well. The whole idea is balance but in truth its not balanced at all. The design of some sights are just much easier to use in the heat of battle than others. The MEC AK seems to be particularly crappy while a support weapon (maybe it was the US) was a breeze to line up. If some weapons are easier to aim and line up then what’s the point of all the other balancing that’s been done. Again, I know this is about realism. But this is just 1 thing that should stay. You can only take realism so far before it hurts gameplay. I like ALL of the realism features with the exception of kill messages and crosshairs. A lot of players will be turned off by no crosshairs. It’s going to slow this mods acceptance down a lot. If they were all equally easy to aim with then I would say fine, learn to use them. This just isnt the case in my opinion.

6. Sniper – the sniper class is pretty much neutered in BF2. When you have to hit someone twice to kill them it pretty much renders you useless. IMO, each side (MEC, US..etc) should have a sniper kit with a slow, bolt action 1 shot 1 kill (anywhere in the torso) sniper weapon. I know there are head shots but its pretty hard to head shot a sprinting target in the heat of battle. This would actually make the sniper useful and he can actually pose and offensive or defensive threat. I don’t feel that it would be overpowering as its still fairly hard to hit a moving target. A way to BALANCE this would be to make it impossible for a sniper to Scope Zoom when standing or crouching - only when prone. If you want to talk about realism in real life a sniper hardly ever makes a standing/crouched shot and his aim is less accurate if he does. This would help balance issues and improve realism all around. IRL if you get hit with a sniper round in the chest you arent going to keep running. If after a few weeks it was blatantly obvious to everyone (even sniper fans) that it was too powerful and balance was an issue it could be changed back. Personally, I don’t think this will happen if the proper balances are in place. It will just bring the Sniper up to the level of Assault or Support in deadliness. AT THE VERY LEAST sniper weapons (once balanced to bolt action on every team) should do like 95% damage to a player. This way you can at least kill someone with 1 shot if they don’t have full health. Lets be real, a 2 shot sniper is a joke on a server with skilled players. Hardly anyone plays it (except noobs) and if they do they seem pretty benign in terms of affecting outscomes. Its only an overplayed class on pubs with noobs. In real games there may be a few but the major workhorse players are using Assault/Support/Medic. Ya a sniper could be annoying but hes not changing the outcome of a game as much as Assault/Support will. Another neat idea is that once in SCOPE view in a night map your vision is enhanced even more so than normal NV goggles. The scope should be brighter and slightly clearer than the standard NV head units. This would make the sniper a vital SCOUT on night maps and add more realism. Snipers should also have parachutes along with specOps. This way you can jump out of a passing heli onto a roof or a remote location. Imo the parachute is more vital to a sniper than a specOp. They are dropped in remote locations by fly overs in real life. Disable its use for small height free jumps so it cant be abused for jumping off buildings (same for specOp).

These are just a few things that I feel would enhance the gameplay and make it slightly more “mainstream” friendly. If we want it to get very popular with tons of great servers then a few of these changes need to happen. I know multiple people who wont play because they cant stand not being able to aim the iron sights. If it were even on all guns that’s one thing, but its not. In terms of realism I LOVE all the other tweaks and changes that have been made. Its very well thought out. I just feel that there is a fine line in realism and once you go to far you degrade some of the fun factor. This mod should bring more realism while also IMPROVING upon the original game. Sometimes I think the "realism" factor may outweigh the fun factor in some of the dev's eyes. This mod is great and there are many hardcore fans and clans that love it already. But thats a small percentage of BF2 players. This thing deserves to gain massive acceptance and popularity.

I don’t mean to sound like I’m slamming PR. I think its great but it needs a lot of work. When your average joe bloe players jump on a server hes likely to feel like he's just been limited by the new changes rather than having new/neat things added. Most of the changes are simple realism limitations rather than new or exciting content/gameply ideas. You feel limited but it’s still worth it for the realism and gameplay enhancement. I just think a couple minor things should be brought back. I would like to see some of the unlock weapons brought into the game as long as everything is balanced out properly. They may need to be tweaked in order to do this. Some of the unlocks have much better iron sights. I just feel that many players will feel like all the mod did was limit them rather than offer things above and beyond vanilla BF2. Adding new weapons options (for everyone) can be done without totally screwing balance issues. If some of these things aren’t done I don’t think the mod will gain the acceptance it needs to become successful.

Otherwise, great work PR team. We all appreciate your time and dedication and you are improving on a game we all love. I look forward to seeing the mod evolve and grow. Even if none of these changes happen I will still play. I just feel the MOD would be a LOT more fun with a few of these. Of the things I mentioned #2 and #6 seem most important. I can live with some or none of the above suggestions but I do think it would improve gameply and the "fun" factor. Realism is not always > fun.

whew!

Update: I just thought of this one. ABR - WHY!?! We are dealing with wasted bandwidth and LONG end round waits (10min+ on gloryhoundz!) for simple stats. But why? Its already been stated there are no unlocks and its just for simple stats. This mod tries to support the "we" instead of "me" yet this goes directly against that. Even if a few awards are created/assigned is it REALLY worth it? Who fucking cares how many points you have accumulated. If we want the FOCUS to be gameplay, team objectives and strategy I say screw personal stats anyway. As for rank, if unlocks were eliminated to put everyone on equal ground than the same holds true here also.

Update 2: Health! I realize the health is for realism. What about the idea of a green, yellow, red indicator? That way you have some idea. Many times I dont know if I was hit by a sniper round or a single rifle round. At least knowing if you have a critical injury or a minor arm/leg wound would make a difference. IRL you would have SOME idea of how bad you are injured. Also the continuos "argh" sound when bleeding makes you think you are being attacked when you arent. Something else needs to be done here. Maybe a faster heartbeat or a visual signal.

Update 3: Squad Leader spawn bonus: One of the most important things a SL can do is hang back slightly, stay alive and let his team progress using him as a spawn. It is VITAL to the teams success that a good squad leader does this. Sometimes he doesnt get to go balls out in the action like others so that he serves his role. I suggest that when a SL gets 5+ spawns off him per lifetime (thats from death to death) he gets Bonus points. This is more incentive to serve the role and hang back to let your team strategically spawn closer to a target. We are awarding more points when you kill a SL so we might as well give a bonus for a good SL who advances his whole squad to the heart of action. This will be harder to achive in 1.3 as there is no squad hopping. I think 5+ spawns per lifetime seems to be a good number for a bonus. If he has less than a full squad he has to stay alive even longer to hit 5.

[eggman]

good post, need to read it again when I am awake heh.

Some initial comments.

Crosshairs: no, don't waste any time arguing the merits not going to happen

Kill Messages: no, don't waste any time arguing the merits not going to happen; not because we want to take away the fun, but because we don't want kill confirmations. Long range infantry engagements can often happen in PR, don't want confirmations of kills.

Game Modes: This is a learning excercise for us. Put it into perspective... EA worked on BF2 for several years - probably hundreds of "man years" - and they never finished the Supply lines mode, and shipped the game with 1 mode. We've been at PR in earnest for about 6 months and have 3 additional game modes.

I'm not bashing EA, rather I am saying that developing new game modes in a game known for it's flag capture mechanism requires a lot of play testing. Effectively, as far as sobj and xtract goes, that what y'all are doing for us right now. And the feedback has been great and we're going to continue to improve those game modes. For me personally, level/map design and game modes are a huge chunk of where the enjoyment comes from.

We're gonna refine our game mode "roadmap" as a result of these learnings and come up with some cool stuff for future releases. A hugely important aspect of making changes to our game modes will be around "usability" factors.

Unlock system was locked out by BF2 1.03 and we no longer have access to it, otherwise we'd be a lot further along in our class system revamp. We're working on an alternative, but it's taking time. It won't be used for vBF2 unlocks, rather it will be used for a "meta class" and "sub class" type system.

Thanks for taking the time to try out the mod and drop in with some great feedback.

egg

[EPatrick]

Excellent thread.

[-g00nie-]

eggman']good post, need to read it again when I am awake heh.

Some initial comments.

Crosshairs: no, don't waste any time arguing the merits not going to happen

Kill Messages: no, don't waste any time arguing the merits not going to happen; not because we want to take away the fun, but because we don't want kill confirmations. Long range infantry engagements can often happen in PR, don't want confirmations of kills.

Game Modes: This is a learning excercise for us. Put it into perspective... EA worked on BF2 for several years - probably hundreds of "man years" - and they never finished the Supply lines mode, and shipped the game with 1 mode. We've been at PR in earnest for about 6 months and have 3 additional game modes.

I'm not bashing EA, rather I am saying that developing new game modes in a game known for it's flag capture mechanism requires a lot of play testing. Effectively, as far as sobj and xtract goes, that what y'all are doing for us right now. And the feedback has been great and we're going to continue to improve those game modes. For me personally, level/map design and game modes are a huge chunk of where the enjoyment comes from.

We're gonna refine our game mode "roadmap" as a result of these learnings and come up with some cool stuff for future releases. A hugely important aspect of making changes to our game modes will be around "usability" factors.

Unlock system was locked out by BF2 1.03 and we no longer have access to it, otherwise we'd be a lot further along in our class system revamp. We're working on an alternative, but it's taking time. It won't be used for vBF2 unlocks, rather it will be used for a "meta class" and "sub class" type system.

Thanks for taking the time to try out the mod and drop in with some great feedback.

egg

I figured the kill confirm and crosshair were pretty much closed for debate. I understand the concept of "not knowing" and its implications on realism. In the grand scheme of things its fairly minor anyway.

As for crosshairs, well this is a little more concerning for me. I understand that is for realism too but IMO (maybe its just me) some weapons are well suited for iron sight use and some arent. That is to say, its not really totally equal footing because specific country models of even the same class weapon are easier/harder to line up quickly and not the same. Some weapons I used were nice and some I could hardly see a target due to the design of the sights. Nobody else has brought this up? Again, its not a major thing. Deal with whatever iron sight you happen to have and enjoy it when youre on a team with one you particularily like and can use better.

The main thing I would REALLY like to see is a refined/improved Extraction mode. This has HUGE potential. It would be like a whole new game within a game. When I was selling this mod to my friends once I mentioned "Hunt the president/vip" mode they were sold. This will go so well with BF2. I guess not many of you played oldschool quake Team Fortress Hunted President stuff. It was a blast.

I also feel that the sniper class should be revamped with the suggestions I mentioned above taken into consideration. Eliminate non-prone scope use so actual shots are all made from prone (more real). At the same time giving all sniper kits a bolt action 1 shot 1 kill torso/head weapon. This would make the Sniper an actual option w/out overpowering it IMO. If you want to take REALISM so far as to remove kill confirmation than the sniper class needs to be looked at again. Standing, long range, scope shots? - no way. Perhaps it can be coded so that a sniper can still use a structure at gun level (window, stone ledges, gaurd tower/house) to rest his gun on like if he was prone. This would get complex in terms of code and depends on how the engine is written. It may not even be feasible. In fact, I highly doubt it can be done without a DICE as it would require some engine editing. I'd still take a 1 shot head/torso PRONE only version over what we have now. If its REALISM > everything else than stay true to that in all situations (not just some) while still keeping balance in mind.

Personally I feel realism should only be taken as far as until it starts to degrade the fun factor. We all know if we made this as absolutely real as possible it wouldnt be close to as fun.

Keep up the great work guys! If the coders/modelers/mappers are as serious as they seem this could be to BF2 what Desert Conflict was to BF1 and we all know what happened there. It became almost more played than the vanilla game itself and the team ended up being hired professionally.

[[BiM]Black7]

Tbh im abit destrubed that DICE/EA dident get sway on weapons in a new game like this. if it had been in it would have been so much easyer to balance things out. No more standing 2mins aiming with perfect hit factor, no more sprint prone perfect shoot factor. Tweakeble weapon aim sway would have solved it all..

oh and why no lean DICE/EA WHY!!!

well back to ontopic.

No crosshairs
No Confirm kills..
no thanks.

good post otherwise

[Skullening.Chris]

Black7']

oh and why no lean DICE/EA WHY!!!

I hear that. I played Joint Operations before I started playing BF2 and the first thing I noticed was lack of lean. God forbid you don't actually hafta put your entire body in harm's way just to find out if there's danger around the corner

[-g00nie-]

I hear that. I played Joint Operations before I started playing BF2 and the first thing I noticed was lack of lean. God forbid you don't actually hafta put your entire body in harm's way just to find out if there's danger around the corner

Its clear that DICE/EA puts gameplay and the "fun" factor over the "realism" factor. When you play a game like the original Ghost Recon for PC (i know its old, but a good example) where it is more realistic it is also a much slower paced game. Lean, prone time, reticle time and accuracy and all that were taken into account for realism. The same style of BF1/2 action would not work in a GR engine or style. You have to look at the engine and what it was designed for in the first place. Look at CS, its basically an example of what happenes when you put fun over realism. Otherwise if it were totally real it would be like GR was, a multiplayer flop.

Sometimes I think this Ultra realism ideal of the team could be slightly misguided. I'm all for more realism and I LOVE whats been done but you have to know your limitations (the engine). Sometimes I think making BF2 engine ultra real is like fitting a square peg into a round hole. Realism is great but IMO fun is king as long as balance is also taken into consideration. I think PR should be enhanced realism AS WELL as other enhancements and improvements that the community has voiced. If you want total realism then move along to another game, its not happening with this engine. Something like leaning would take a major source rewrite/edit by DICE. Nothing this intensive has been attempted thus far, and it wont happen in PR. You have to realize what these guys actually have to work with. They really cant rewrite bits of the engine.

[[BiM]Black7]

-g00nie- they could atleast have added these options for modders to play with insted they made a good looking engine with few options on movment and aiming.

[Skullening.Chris]

Sometimes I think this Ultra realism ideal of the team could be misguided. I'm all for more realism and I LOVE whats been done but you have to know your limitations (the engine). Sometimes I think making BF2 engine ultra real is like fitting a square peg into a round hole. Realism is great but IMO fun is king as long as balance is also taken into consideration. I think PR should be enhanced realism AS WELL as other enhancements and improvements that the community has voiced. If you want total realism then move along to another game, its not happening with this engine.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but to me, the most "realistic" aspect of all seems to be the encouragement of teamwork and, for the most part, it seems to improve ten-fold with each release. And this increase in teamwork translates into an increase in fun. With some of the stuff you just gotta say "oh well" and realize that the BF2 engine is appearently pretty limited in many aspects :-\

What you said earlier about some weapons having more difficult sighted views and therefore needing a crosshair is I think is part of the realism, too. Not everything on the battlefield will be "balanced" and you just gotta adapt.

(hope all of this makes sense, its almost 3:30am here and I'm half-asleep )

[-g00nie-]

Yea it makes sense. I was just bringing up some things to get some feedback. I had a pretty good idea of what the response would be. And yes, the communication aspect is the best multiplayer communication thus far. The amount of info (target type, location, etc) you can transmit instantly to a teammate is amazing. BF2 is still the best online multiplayer game there is.

Its late here too but final exams are over!

I dont want to make it sound like I'm coming down on the team or what PR aims to do. I like the realism. I just think we all need to take a hard look at what we have to work with. I also think realism should be weighed against fun just as heavily as balance would be.

[Skullening.Chris]

Nah, it doesn't sound like that at all. I think they appreciate it when there's a constructive, well thought-out post, as opposed to one line saying "this sucks wherez my crosshair"

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

COmes down to waht you are looking for in PR and what do you find fun. some might want pure, hardcore realism while others are llooking of some thing that is alittle more reaslitic that vBF2 but being more concerned about new gamemods and weapons ext.

Personally i am more of an extreme realism man, i find the slow more tactical side fun, but often games like these end up being like swat, and that is boring.

ONe thing that arieses from hitindicators and kill indicators is that many people do not lay covering fire down, becuase there only concern is to - hit and kill.
Covering fire is not as fun to most people that blow the brains out of a man wiht a single round. BUT sadly covering fire and firefights is what reall war is about most of the time. And taking way both those features encourage people to fire more often and use covering fire, cos even if they try and shoot acurately they dont know if they get a kill.

Covering fire is vital to PR and so any way that encourages it should be implamented or done, and i think kill/ hit indicators are is one thing that affects it.

[-g00nie-]

After reading eggman's reply I actually sort of regret I even mentioned crosshairs and
kill indication. I should have known, this is about REALISM. Im sure these were decided upon and finalized (for good) long ago. Still, it shows my concern for taking realism too far. I dont think its happened yet but there is a line.

I hope it didnt take away from the validity of my other points. I really would like to see some changes to the sniper class. And I could go on for hours about how fun/amazing Extraction could be with some more attention and a couple maps designed for it.

[ETCS_keysR]

about that crosshairs and diffrent ironsights - it takes time to get used to them. Practise a lot, and you'll shoot down snipers with an AK like Dedmon and if you don't like to practise, make yourself an own reticule on the monitor with some marker or smth. That's lame and noobish by the way and feels like cheating of some sorts

I personally didn't play extract or single objective - I'll wait about two or three releases and then check them out I'm no beta-tester

but I would really want to see one tiny little thing in PR - some kind of external anti-cheater tool. Like Punkbuster, even though PB sucks. Is there any hope for this? I'm not a bad player, so you can't say "stfu noob, these guys have leet skill" when I complain of cheaters. There are a few of them, using radar hacks mostly I think. It's good there are only a few, but this will change unfortunatelly - the more popular the mod is, the more dimwits it attracts... So I think it would be wise to use some sort of anti-cheater tools...

[Skullening.Chris]

I've thought the same thing before about snipers having to prone to scope. My main arguement for it is that there's no real sway (ok, a tiny bit) so that right there cancels out a LOT of the realistic aspects of sniping, so therefore something should be done to compensate for that. I think that you should be able to crouch/scope but when you prone/scope, the line-up time* that you have to endure should be shortened as a "bonus" for bothering to prone.

*that thing in BF2 where you hafta hold the crosshairs perfectly still over your target for a time to get off an accurate shot

[DirtyBaz]

wow, long post.

some good points, I like the sound of an on screen giving details of the game mode, would definitely help newbies to AAS and Xtraction. Also, good idea about numbering the flags in the order they must be taken, sounds easy to do and again would be a great help to new folk and would also bridge the language barrier. How many times do you shout down VOIP to a squad mate whos at the wrong flag only for him to type, Que?

To me the lack of cross-hairs and a health bar are key features in PR, when I first booted up PR it was a shock but you soon get used to it. I can now judge shots without having to use ironsights at certain distance, it just takes practice. Also, I see what you are saying about some of the ironsights being better than others, but hey, this is supposed to be real life and in real life you can't cut off part of your guns sight cause it blocks your view. I hate the sights on the MP5, chinese SpecOps and support, can't see a thing so I don't use them tbh.

I also happen to think sniper rifles are perfect in PR. I see what you are saying about lack of accuracy while standing and kneeling but there are already built-in accuracy penalties for this so removing the zoom unless prone seems to be crippling the class even more. Also, you can't say that a torso shot with a sniper rifle would meaning death 100% of the time, what about that guy how hit you from 1000m in the shoulder, I'd still expect my guy to be able to move at 5 or 10% health after that. You also have to think about the engine cause if you had 1 shot kills for torso, you'd probably also have to have 1 shot kills for hands, feets, arms and legs etc.

Also agree the view is limited in the SUV but 3rd person is totally unrealistic IMO. I'd impliment the system that's in the littlebirds, space to look left, right mouse to look right and maybe both together or mouse wheel to look behind?

As for a health indicator of some kind, I'd like to see the fast heart beat used when you've been shot. Why not impliment it so that when your guy is near death, his heart will beat rapidly and the red flare will come up but no scream of pain? I don't really like the constant ARGH cause you always wonder if you are being shot.

[Cpl_Reading]

for the snipers, i feel they are good (for the bf2 engine aspect) the mk12 mod 0 is an exelent weapon (havent had the peasure of shooting the m24 in anger yet). but what your sugestiing will either criply the class even more. but the the affect of the 1 shot kill. the m24/svd use basily the same ammo as the ak series, so should they also have one hit kills? then what happenes, people that play on the usmc will ***** and complain.
so if this was real life then mabey we could change the sniper class, bf2 they reach out max 400m, Rl then can reach out to 1800m depening on the ammo.

any ways people will probly just pass this post, but i still think for the limitations of the bf2 engine snipers are about as close to perfection as you can get.

[Wild_Wokman]

I agree with some of these iron sights...the chinese spec ops sucks. I played on Jungle Fever, and I could not see ****! The M4 and MEC with the laser sights are much better. It was like trying to zoom in at 9x on a jumping bird.

[Wild_Wokman]

Extraction kicks butt! Just need to tweak some of these maps, so we have at least three routes to take, and maybe they are predefined and drawn on the HUD map like Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie with an optional radio message from the commander.... TAKE ROUTE BRAVO!!!!!

[-g00nie-]

wow, long post.

some good points, I like the sound of an on screen giving details of the game mode, would definitely help newbies to AAS and Xtraction. Also, good idea about numbering the flags in the order they must be taken, sounds easy to do and again would be a great help to new folk and would also bridge the language barrier. How many times do you shout down VOIP to a squad mate whos at the wrong flag only for him to type, Que?

To me the lack of cross-hairs and a health bar are key features in PR, when I first booted up PR it was a shock but you soon get used to it. I can now judge shots without having to use ironsights at certain distance, it just takes practice. Also, I see what you are saying about some of the ironsights being better than others, but hey, this is supposed to be real life and in real life you can't cut off part of your guns sight cause it blocks your view. I hate the sights on the MP5, chinese SpecOps and support, can't see a thing so I don't use them tbh.

I also happen to think sniper rifles are perfect in PR. I see what you are saying about lack of accuracy while standing and kneeling but there are already built-in accuracy penalties for this so removing the zoom unless prone seems to be crippling the class even more. Also, you can't say that a torso shot with a sniper rifle would meaning death 100% of the time, what about that guy how hit you from 1000m in the shoulder, I'd still expect my guy to be able to move at 5 or 10% health after that. You also have to think about the engine cause if you had 1 shot kills for torso, you'd probably also have to have 1 shot kills for hands, feets, arms and legs etc.

Also agree the view is limited in the SUV but 3rd person is totally unrealistic IMO. I'd impliment the system that's in the littlebirds, space to look left, right mouse to look right and maybe both together or mouse wheel to look behind?

As for a health indicator of some kind, I'd like to see the fast heart beat used when you've been shot. Why not impliment it so that when your guy is near death, his heart will beat rapidly and the red flare will come up but no scream of pain? I don't really like the constant ARGH cause you always wonder if you are being shot.

You said yourself you have avoided certain weapons because they are basically impossible to aim well with. I feel this is just wrong. When you have to stop using certain weapons the realism could have gone too far. This is the point I was making.

Health - yes, anything would be better than nothing. I also agree with the "argh sound" in bleeding. Often I think im being attacked but Im all alone. This should be looked at.

The PRONE to SCOPE idea for snipers will cripple them some. But giving every sniper (on every country) a bolt action (like m24) that does 1 shot 1 kill would balance it out. I feel this would make the entire class more realistic while changing the dynamic of the sniper slightly. It will make the long range sniper/scout role more important without overpowering it IMO. I feel its pretty useless now. A sniper is not really a major threat Long Range w/ 2 shots needed and I dont think I need to even mention how worthless they are in CQ.

for the snipers, i feel they are good (for the bf2 engine aspect) the mk12 mod 0 is an exelent weapon (havent had the peasure of shooting the m24 in anger yet). but what your sugestiing will either criply the class even more. but the the affect of the 1 shot kill. the m24/svd use basily the same ammo as the ak series, so should they also have one hit kills? then what happenes, people that play on the usmc will ***** and complain.

Thats why I think if these changes are made all snipers (no matter what country) will have a bolt action. This equals it out. You cant have a semi auto 1 shot 1 kill.

Updates I have added updates to my original post (bottom) for anyone who has already read my post. I added a few more suggestions and things I noticed.