The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
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Joined: 2009-07-22 09:46

The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Sirex[SWE][MoW] »

Hi!
First of i am new so don't be mad if this turns out to be talked to death or i am just of the hook please :p .

I personally find these objective games, AASv3, rubbish. Because there is no real strategy or tactic when everyone rush the same flags, and the flags are another thing all together. Let me give you folks some other views.

I have played steel panthers: world at war which is a hardcore realistic ww2 turnbased hexbased strategy game where you start with a predetermined force which you can't reinforce and you have big maps. In this game from the start there where also flags which you needed to hold when the game ends (there are also flags which you gain points for holding each turn), when the turn limit is up. This gameplay often resulted in sovjet wawe attacks to the flags, often the few turns before the turn limit was up. And you win by having more points in the end and you also get points for killing enemy things.

The solution they reached was to create better, as in more fun and realistic, combat was to get rid of flags and have the players play "campaings" where you save your force between battles and thus create incitement not to waste your forces. Also artificial rule to only allow recon forces to spawn closer to the enemy.

Because they also realised that flags are a way to abstract things that don't need to be abstracted! What does the flags represent? They represent attack objectives, but the thing is in the military almost no rank has the same objective thus these global flag objective become ridiculous and this is why flags don't work in games tring to simulate real life warfare becuase every player in the server form commander and soldier with flags have the same objectives witch is bull.

Example: Battalion commander objective is to take the city "BLAA", he gives one company commander objective to take the docks, the company commander gives one platoon commander to take along the coast, the platoon commander give one squad leader objective to take the next right building, soldier gets objective to breach the door. See irl there are no "flags" they are always dynamical created with the overall objective to kill enemies and gain terrain! Everyone have different objectives. And whit PR firebase and rally system and command system there is no reason to use flags, all effort should be to remove them if you want this game to be more realistic!

So translated in to PR i think that if you want to have more real-life combat and use the commander more you have to work with command and control gameplay and have high timelimit and long vehicle respawn (this last thing will make players and the team be conservative of your forces).

This would result in more teamwork since people will ask for objectives and allow the commander to form a battle plan, since the main objective will no longer be "take the clearing in the wood because god wants it and will kill us if we don't have boots on that clearing exactly in 3 hours and 45 minutes" instead the team will work to take important roads and terrain on the map to limit the enemy movement and allow your own troops freedom of movement whit the ultimate goal to box in the enemy and strike at their base. Sicne in fact just breaking their lines and having your armour behind enemy lines ramping and flanking will win your team the k/d and allow you to push at the enemy base. Which is realistic, tanks historic use has always been to rampage behind enemy lines.

This is my views on the matter, i just don't want you to reinvent the wheel on this one.
Last edited by Sirex[SWE][MoW] on 2009-08-07 17:11, edited 2 times in total.
arjan
Posts: 1865
Joined: 2007-04-21 12:32

Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by arjan »

I would like to see a map with no flag at all yeah :)
Just fighting over terrain sounds simple and good, it will make the battlefield more dynamic and let youre team decide what to do, so each map will play out verry different.
Spec
Retired PR Developer
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Spec »

No flags? C&C gamemode. It's already in game (unless it was removed in 0.86 or sth). Also, the Devs are probably working on another game mode with map specific objectives, again, unless that was dropped or something.
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Sirex[SWE][MoW] »

Spec_Operator wrote:No flags? C&C gamemode. It's already in game (unless it was removed in 0.86 or sth)
Yes but no server seems to play it, and also i was more into offering my views on the subject.
Why is C&C not played that much? What is your view on that system?
Spec
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Spec »

I can't really comment to that as I haven't played in a while and never tried C&C. So far I had no problem with AAS, but C&C sound very interesting, and I see your point and kinda agree that flags aren't the perfect solution. I hope the Dev's are still working on an objective based gamemode as I think that'd be best.
snooggums
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by snooggums »

'Sirex[SWE wrote:[MoW];1105678']Yes but no server seems to play it, and also i was more into offering my views on the subject.
Why is C&C not played that much? What is your view on that system?
What happens is the teams will hide the firebases in ridiculous locations and the round just takes forever because there is no place to meet and fight, and all four firebases have to be destroyed for a bleed so it ends up like a map with no purpose.

I look forward to a revamp of the system because it does allow for flexibility but needs to be refined first.
NyteMyre
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by NyteMyre »

Op.Barracuda has no bleed, so the flag there are pretty much pointless :p
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Sirex[SWE][MoW] »

snooggums wrote:What happens is the teams will hide the firebases in ridiculous locations and the round just takes forever because there is no place to meet and fight, and all four firebases have to be destroyed for a bleed so it ends up like a map with no purpose.

I look forward to a revamp of the system because it does allow for flexibility but needs to be refined first.
Hmm for me this seems strange, if your enemy turtles why not just out flank, control the rest of the map so they are forced to stay in their turtle base, attack from different locations and bomb them to hell? I mean if you hamper their supply ruots from main base they will be cutoff and have less heavy vehicles.

One reason why the scenario you describe comes up might be lack of coordination, a team that is coordinated would probably be able to overwhelm individual firebases and cut of enemy supply and use recon in a helpful and realistic way.

I think one reason why this don't work is that this games operate with an unrealistic low amount of artillery.
fuzzhead
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by fuzzhead »

Short response for now: most of dev team dont like flags either... its a hold over from vbf2 and hard to change mentality of BF2 (and PR) playerbase, but yea new things are being thought of and AAS is definitely not considered the best game mode, just what we have atm.
GreedoNeverShot
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by GreedoNeverShot »

What would cause people to even leave the base? You could fortify an area and sit there forever, while racking up points. There is no incentive to attack, or gain ground. Flag markers cause people to attack, take loses, think, take risks, maneuver, flank, divide forces, and adapt to different situations.

In my opinion there should be more strategic value to the flags. Rather than taking random hills for no reason, you should take bunker complexes (for defense advantage), AA bunkers (for spawned AA), Heliports (for extra copters), Depots (for vehicles and ammo supply), Bridges (for transport), and things like that. Rather than taking flags for the sake of taking flags, you should take flags for their strategic value.
Last edited by GreedoNeverShot on 2009-08-07 17:59, edited 7 times in total.
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mat552
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by mat552 »

CnC Rounds do generally devolve into who can turtle the best with 4 firebases, even with all of the big assets out to play. It's a fantastic idea, and there was a suggestion for improving it about a commander purchasing and holding in reserve items with tickets, I can't find it right now, but it holds a lot of promise as an alternative to flag based gameplay.
Players might be hardcoded, but that sure doesn't seem to stop anybody from trying.


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Shaihuluid
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Shaihuluid »

It might be interesting to try having a gamemode where a teams commander has the option to select several "team objectives" from among a list of potential objectives already set on the map, and then dealing with them as regular objectives once gameplay begins. This would give a balanced degree of realism (commander assigns objectives) while at the same time ensuring that a game does not become totally unfair. Of course, it might be tricky devising rules to ensure that a team does not simply choose objectives that are closest to their base!
Gore
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Gore »

GreedoNeverShot wrote: In my opinion there should be more strategic value to the flags. Rather than taking random hills for no reason, you should take bunker complexes (for defense advantage), AA bunkers (for spawned AA), Heliports (for extra copters), Depots (for vehicles and ammo supply), Bridges (for transport), and things like that. Rather than taking flags for the sake of taking flags, you should take flags for their strategic value.
Agree. In previous versions you could cap for example an airfield and then you'd get planes. Zatar iirc. Apart from old BF2 maps this should be heavily implemented.
Poi_Medic
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Poi_Medic »

CnC is probly the best objective based gameplay we can get. Other than insurgency mode which is search and destroy. CnC is almost the same, except its a fortified position you are finding. So its best to patrol an area and then plan an attack. I like CnC mode better than AAS3 :D
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GreedoNeverShot
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by GreedoNeverShot »

I miss extraction mode... :cry:
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Sirex[SWE][MoW]
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Sirex[SWE][MoW] »

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]fuzzhead;1105702']Short response for now: most of dev team dont like flags either... its a hold over from vbf2 and hard to change mentality of BF2 (and PR) playerbase, but yea new things are being thought of and AAS is definitely not considered the best game mode, just what we have atm.[/quote]

Good thing!

[quote="GreedoNeverShot""]What would cause people to even leave the base? You could fortify an area and sit there forever, while racking up points. There is no incentive to attack, or gain ground. Flag markers cause people to attack, take loses, think, take risks, maneuver, flank, divide forces, and adapt to different situations.

In my opinion there should be more strategic value to the flags. Rather than taking random hills, for no reason, you should take bunker complexes (for defense advantage), AA bunkers (for spawned AA), Heliports (for extra copters), Depots (for vehicles and ammo supply), Bridges (for transport), and things like that. Rather than taking flags for the sake of taking flags, you should take flags for their strategic value.[/quote]

Yes the point is why does the bunker need to be a flag? If the commander for that team wants the bunker then he can issue an attack command to some squad, but just taking it for the hell of it/forced by arbitrary flags? I don't like that. Like i tried to flank in an AAS map but had my whole squad whining because i didn't suicide the magic flag like the rest of the squad.

I want instead to give the commander the decision what on the map is vital and what is not. Also making places spawn vehicles in map seems a little arcade really.
mat552 wrote:CnC Rounds do generally devolve into who can turtle the best with 4 firebases, even with all of the big assets out to play. It's a fantastic idea, and there was a suggestion for improving it about a commander purchasing and holding in reserve items with tickets, I can't find it right now, but it holds a lot of promise as an alternative to flag based gameplay.
Yes i can understand the problem, but this must be an easy fix if you think about it, i can hardly imagine that gamey tactics kills of the whole concept.

What i can see we have two problems:
1. People don't know where to go.
2. People like camping and killing attackers.

Solutions:
1. Active commanders and squad leaders and a final goal, with C&C we kind of lose that short of base rape. I think this is a gamer mentally block. Because as of right now controlling the routes from the enemy main means that the enemy will lose vehicle support and that should be enough of a reason to attack adn to cooperate to defend main.

2. This is also something which is a player mentally block. Attackers if they want have the imitative in that they can coordinate tanks/air to kill of firebases or isolate them, also i personally believe that shortening the artillery wait time by half would instant solve this problem, since artillery with that wait time is only really usable on a defensive cluster. Using it on oncoming attackers or random would still be a waste of munitions.
Shaihuluid wrote:It might be interesting to try having a gamemode where a teams commander has the option to select several "team objectives" from among a list of potential objectives already set on the map, and then dealing with them as regular objectives once gameplay begins. This would give a balanced degree of realism (commander assigns objectives) while at the same time ensuring that a game does not become totally unfair. Of course, it might be tricky devising rules to ensure that a team does not simply choose objectives that are closest to their base!
This should be AASv4. A good roadbumb in to getting a prober C&C.
Poi_Medic
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Poi_Medic »

GreedoNeverShot wrote:I miss extraction mode... :cry:
I too miss extraction mode :(
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flem615
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by flem615 »

i think that removing the flags is, in theory, a good idea. but the teams have to have some sort of objective/task to complete. if you just have a map with no objectives, then nothing happens. its a good idea but needs to be very thought out. and if they do find a way, there needs to be playable betas to see how the community likes it.
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gaurd502
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by gaurd502 »

Sounds interesting to me. I like it.
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Rudd
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Re: The unrealistic elements of flag objectives.

Post by Rudd »

Flags are good imo because they center teh small number of players on the map in to a confrontation sooner or later.

But large cap radii can be used to allow you to have BOTH the centering ability to ensure you actually have fun (i.e. finding and then using tactics to engage the enemy) AND have strategic freedom to move around an area.
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