Nerf the support class

Eden · Post by **Eden** » 2006-05-29 16:40

It has started to piss me off so much lately. I usually always get the first shot out and hit however the guy who's almost always support for some reason just starts spraying bullets into me with great accuracy while standing it really needs to be fixed, I'm no gun expert but there's no way in hell someone could fire a saw and hit someone while standing with that accuracy.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-29 16:48

To me, alot of games just make the machine gun unacurate generally and dont bother with a more complex and realistic thing.
In single shot, most machine guns should be accurate, sometimes very.
But simply they should have appaling acuracy when the man iis standing, with it only possible to make very short bursts, and even then, it is not that accurate.

However when lying down, you should be able to make sustained firing with reasonalbe accuracy, nothign great but able to hit a 3m by 3m area constanly or something similar. BUT still , while prome, bursts should still be more accurate than sustained fire, not much but noticble.

Post by **Bob_Marley** » 2006-05-29 16:56

With a dedicated LMG/SAW, such as the FN Minimi, rather than a converted assault rifle, such as the RPK-74, it is (supposedly) possible to fire reasonably accurately from the hip while standing, but the accuracy should be terrible when fired using the irons because the weapons are too heavy (the factor that makes them good to fire from the hip, with the aid of a sling) works against the firer because it can be very hard to hold a 12.5lb (IIRC) weapon steady.

So, what needs to happen is have the class so they can fire reasonably accurately from the hip while standing or crouched, but firing through the irons produces massive deviation. This would help to reflect the fact that these weapons are very useful in close terrain, such as urban fighting, when used from the hip.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-29 17:00

I agree, but you must ensure accracy of when prone is a thousand times better, and the accuracy from the hip is reasonble, rather than good.

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-29 17:07

Actually the SAW is a really accurate weapon in real life, when fired in single shots.

That being said, I agree with you though.
The lighter assault rifles should have a major advantage over the heavy support MGs in PRMM in your average infantry battle.

I propose to lessen the accuracy of the support guns while standing or crouching a LOT. Shooting "from the hip" should yield an incredibly awful accuracy.

You should have an "OK" accuracy while standing or crouching when using the iron sights. Lining up the iron sights with a support weapon should take longer than doing it with an assault rifle though.
I propose to add a delay of about one second after lining up the sights until you can actually fire with the gun.

Also, we have to work on the prone mechanisms, as discussed in this thread:
http://realitymod.com/forum/t6633-divin ... prone.html

With these changes, we could make sure that the support weapons will be used while lying on the ground for the most part, which is the way they are intended to be used.

It should give the assault rifles the edge they deserve in your common infantry battle where two enemies run into each other, while preserving the deadly advantage a machine gun would have once you have set up position and are waiting for your enemies to emerge from cover.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-29 17:12

The accuracy of a weapon NEVER changes as long as the conditions remain the same. The bullet leaves the barrel exactly the same no matter what you do. The thing that changes is recoil.

The only preventative of this is if the recoil is increased further for standing soldiers. When you fire one shot with the SAW your scope should fly up in the air more than it does presently.

I'm no gun expert but there's no way in hell someone could fire a saw and hit someone while standing with that accuracy.

If you've ever fired a weapon in real life you'd know that standing differently only helps you balance the scopes better and assist you with the recoil. Real American soldiers are taught to fire in bursts (one of the reasons the M16A2 doesn't have full auto), and if you fire in bursts there's no reason why you shouldn't miss from close range. If you're that close to an LMG gunner you're probably going to die.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-29 17:13

Bob_Marley wrote:possible to fire reasonably accurately from the hip while standing, but the accuracy should be terrible when fired using the irons because the weapons are too heavy (the factor that makes them good to fire from the hip, with the aid of a sling) works against the firer because it can be very hard to hold a 12.5lb (IIRC) weapon steady.

I am confused, we have a disagreement?!?! who is right

ARE machine guns more or less accurate when standing using a iron site or hip.
AND we must also find out how bursts or sustained fire affects, this, it might swap, E.G more accurate for sustained fire from hip, but less when single shot is used form hip compared to using iron sight.

We need a comprehensive answer, not a half one, every factor and option needs to be covered.

Eden · Post by **Eden** » 2006-05-29 17:17

I think one of the main problems is in real life a shot to the chest is going to put you to the ground or at least disorientate you for a few seconds, if that happened in PR I would be doubleing my kills and almost never be killed by the support class. The support class right now isnt a support class, there a room clearing class and flag capping class, if you here bullets aim in that general direction and fire, you will almost always kill the guy fireing on you. there a great spwan rapeing class as well.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-29 17:21

Read what I said. No matter how you shoot a weapon, be it with your fingers, your toes, whatever, the bullet's going to come out of the weapon in the exact same way. The barrel length, bullet size, muzzle velocity are all exactly the same, therefore the accuracy can not change. Why is that so hard to understand?

What DOES change is the recoil. If you're standing up the gun is going to kick back on your shoulder more and you're going to have to stop the swaying to line up for a second shot. Sustained fire will make it very hard to get your shots on target. The SAW is not a heavy machine gun, it's not just meant to be used from prone, as these chaps demonstrate:

Firing from standing SHOULD be accurate. Sustained fire SHOULD be difficult to control. With a mouse and keyboard it's very simple to fight this recoil unfortunately by cancelling out the movements of recoil. Machine guns are meant to be a menace to troops and that's just the way it is in PRMM. I'm happy with it the way it is. If you can't drop a target from a distance that's your fault.

Gran · Post by **Gran** » 2006-05-29 17:22

When ur 10M from a SAW gunner he could stand on his head and still turn you to swiss cheese. The answer lies in using teamwork untill a class restriction system can be found. We can't go around nerfing weapons just because everyone is using them. Just move slowly and safely, flank the enemy. Those SAW gunners are easy to find now due to the tracers and the distinctive report of that weapon. Use the terrain to your advantage and you won't have as many problems.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-29 17:24

Unless maps are designed to support firefights, then there use will never be forfillled. What it is not fun is constant, areas with 2 wall, 30 metres apaart with some crates and stuff in the middel or something similar, that is not fun

What is fun, is have a a row of destroyed buidligns with roof tops and windows and doors to hide and shoot out, with a road leading in to them, and banks of snad opposite, i cant explain in more detail, but it is up to amsp to ensure each class has a job, the basic fire supportclass has a job, no war ever happens with out him.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-29 17:26

Thankyou Gran! That's entirely true, I have no problem killing LMGers because of their distinctive sound, slow pace, predictable firing patterns, tracers and of course the fact they rarely travel with squads. A couple rounds to the head section will keep them off your back for a while, and if you stick with a squad you'll never get any problems from them because one of your 6 will be bound to take them out, if any fall that's what medics are for.

Forget class limitations, it's fine as it is.

Unless maps are designed to support firefights, then there use will never be forfillled. What it is not fun is constant, areas with 2 wall, 30 metres apaart with some crates and stuff in the middel or something similar, that is not fun

You ever played BF2? Last I checked it was full of firefights, EVER SINGLE ROUND. If you can't find a use for suppressive fire that's your problem. There are tons of places on ever map where supressive fire can be given. I love using the support class just because it's fun to have mind games with the enemy. If you're sitting there capping a flag and all you can hear is the sound of a SAW blazing at your position with bullets ricocheting everywhere you are not going to stick your head up. That's supressive fire. If they do put their head up it won't be there for long because they'll be swiss cheese before I even need to reload. The fact is, the LMGs in BF2 are all actually assault rifles with more ammo than a standard rifle. As long as they're being used for killing, I don't see the problem.

Top_Cat_AxJnAt · Post by **Top_Cat_AxJnAt** » 2006-05-29 17:29

Malik wrote: Forget class limitations,

I agree

, but i cant comment on the fine at mo part though.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-29 19:37

Just had another idea about the support class. How about taking away their sprint feature altogether? That'd be a massive deterrant to all those people who use the kit for anything other than support, and it'd mean squads would have to think more about protecting the support guy who'd be plodding along behind the group.

Solo4114 · Post by **Solo4114** » 2006-05-29 19:57

Shouldn't a squad essentially be focused AROUND the support guy? I mean, not in the sense that he's the most important member of the squad but rather that even having an LMG is pretty pointless if the squad all sprints ahead of him, because he can't provide suppressive fire or ANY kind of fire support if he's got a whole mess of friendlies in his field of fire.

You'd think a smart squad would have its tactics hinge on the support class player (of which you should only really have one per squad), if only to utilize him to maximum effectiveness.

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-29 20:06

Malik:
Another idea would be to remove the sprint feature while holding the actual MG. Give the support class a pistol (for christ's sake! And the medic aswell!) and allow him to sprint with a pistol in hand, so he can keep up with his squad, but as soon as he deploys his machine gun, slow him down.

He SHOULD be able to travel at a decent speed with his squad, he should only use is MG while remaining stationary though.

Malik · Post by **Malik** » 2006-05-29 20:14

Just because you can't see the rifle, doesn't mean it isn't there. This isn't Counter Strike, weapons don't disappear just because you change them. You always weigh the same. That beast of an MG is always going to be with you whether it's on your back or in your arms. And besides, what's the point in removing it if people are just gonna sprint around with their knives and whip their MGs out and prone at the last minute?

Take away the Support class' speed and he'll be pretty much on poor with the rest of the classes. If you want to carry that huge gun with the few hundred bullets that come with it, you get to suffer the price of jogging around. A support guy never needs to sprint, he should get himself a position to the side of his squad giving them fire support on large openings. They advance, he watches from a proned position. A well organised squad won't have friendlies run in front of him.

I think this'll mostly fix the problems people are having with the support class being used in CQB. He's so maneuvrable it makes sense to point spammers to use him. He has the strongest weapon besides the sniper and has 100 rounds at the read. If he can't sprint, he's less evasive. Double this with my insta prone idea and you've got yourself a fix. No need to bring in class limiting.

Burning Mustache · Post by **Burning Mustache** » 2006-05-29 20:26

I agree, it's just that I think a support guy moving with his squad would fall way behind the whole squad after a couple of meters, which is why we should allow him to keep up with his squad, but reamin pretty exposed and fairly unable to defend himself (pistol only) at this time, or to have his gun ready but limited to slow, bulky movement.
"Whipping" out your weapon yields quite a disadvantage in BF2 as it costs a significant amout of time (if you sprint around, pistol in hand, and run into an enemy, the enemy will usually take you down before you can switch off to the machine gun and get a shot off) additionaly you could add about a second to the time the weapon will be ready to fire after being drawn - after all, the light weapons such as M4, M16, AK47 SHOULD have an advantage when it comes to movement / drawing / etc. over the support guns.
Sprinting is very important to get on hills, etc (we don't have a "climbing" feature so the "sprinting up a steep hill" kinda makes up for this), and the support guy should be able to get everywhere his squad can get aswell, just don't allow him to sprint around with the MG in hand.
I realize you're mainly talking about the weight issue here, and switching to the pistol won't get rid of the weight, but it's more of an issue of not being able to sprint with the strong machine gun in hand, ready to fire (after excessive sprinting) and with being able to keep up with the squad to me.

Also, add the "prone-fix", as discussed in the other thread, of course.

twisted · Post by **twisted** » 2006-05-30 00:56

the prone fix is a necessity. 80% of the problem.

slowing down support's sprint speed a fraction would be good.

as for standing and crouched shooting, single shot are ok, but once the SAW gets going the barrel should buzz around like an insane bee. its a fast mad recoil that demands short bursts or risk going way off target. i propose that the recoil when standing ramps up faster and so takes more skill to control. same for crouched but a little easier to control.

prone is just perefect. the problem there is the being able to fire to soon after going prone. malik's basic suggestion will fix.

trogdor1289 · Post by **trogdor1289** » 2006-05-30 02:04

Read the .0311 patch as regards prone diving.