Dual rate of fire cannon for Havoc

[StuTika]

Hi everyone

I was reading a book today called 'The Encyclopedia of Modern Military Aircraft':



I was looking up the choppers in PR, and I came across something interesting about the Mi-28 Havoc:



Read the bit about the cannon.

It appears the cannon in the Havoc has two rates of fire, 300 rpm for ground targets and a staggering 900 rpm for aerial targets. The cannon used is a 2A42, the same as on the BTR-90 (the BMP-3 uses an improved version, the 2A72), so it has dual feed capability. Whether or not it is used on the chopper I'm not sure, if someone could find out?

I'm suggesting that the two rates of fire be implemented into PR. It wouldn't make a huge difference to the chopper, but it's nice to have realistic weapon systems.

The data about how far the gun can traverse in each direction might be useful too.

I have another suggestion for the Havoc too, but I thought I'd better keep each thread to one idea.

Stu.

[Spuz36]

I'm thinking that 900 rpm air-to-air, would quickly turn to air-to-anything. Faster round dispense= fast kills. That would be a player hardcode problem, not the idea. I do like it though, keepin it real

[Rudd]

I'd like it use teh slower cannon for most targets to conserve ammo, use the fast cannon for stuff that HAS TO DIE RIGHT NAOO!!!

[DankE_SPB]

actually 2A42 is a bit slower
low ROF - 200-300
high - more than 550
official site Production Association "Tulamashzavod" - the official site - English version
though 900rpm is more than 550, i think they would include that if it was true

I have another suggestion for the Havoc too, but I thought I'd better keep each thread to one idea.

let me guess, you want to add transport ability?

[StuTika]

I'm thinking that 900 rpm air-to-air, would quickly turn to air-to-anything. Faster round dispense= fast kills. That would be a player hardcode problem, not the idea. I do like it though, keepin it real

Maybe, but as Rudd says, 300 rpm is better for conserving ammo and if you use 900 too much you'll overheat real fast.

I'd like it use teh slower cannon for most targets to conserve ammo, use the fast cannon for stuff that HAS TO DIE RIGHT NAOO!!!

lol yes exactly

actually 2A42 is a bit slower
low ROF - 200-300
high - more than 550
official site Production Association "Tulamashzavod" - the official site - English version
though 900rpm is more than 550, i think they would include that if it was true


let me guess, you want to add transport ability?

Got it in one! How'd you know?

And the figure is definitely 900 rpm, I reckon it's been modified for the Mi-28.

Stu.

[DankE_SPB]

And the figure is definitely 900 rpm, I reckon it's been modified for the Mi-28.
Stu.

i tend to believe official info, encyclopaedias always have some mistakes
another page says 550-800
2a42
and the gun is completely the same on all vehicles(BMPs, BTRs, BMDs, Ka-50/52, Mi-28N)
WEG from fas.org mentions 800 for Havoc
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/weg2001.pdf

The 30-mm cannon is the same as on the BMP-2

btw, even 550rpm would be kickass thats the ROF of BMP-3 ingame

[StuTika]

Well, the gun currently shoots 550. Even being able to select between 300 and 550 would be ace. I was so excited about 900 too... ah well, 800 might be realistic.

Stu.

EDIT: Just read that PDF, looks like we have an answer! According to that, the gun has dual feed with HE and AP (I assume 150 of each because the ammo is held in two 150 round boxes, one each side of the gun) and the RoF is either 300 or 800 rpm. Yes please!

[DankE_SPB]

I was so excited about 900 too...

haha, then you will like GSh-30K(30mm) mounted on Mi-24 with its 2500rpm RoF

[goguapsy]

hahaa i also have this book its so cool

[McBumLuv]

Of course, it would still end up being about 300 and 900 RPM in game, but w/e.

Dual fire rates and dual feed for both HE and AP would be awesome. A slower, but nonetheless extremely effective 300 RPM that doesn't wouldn't overheat as much and would conserve ammo, or the all out where the gun may overheat faster and is an ammo guzzler, btu could take down helicopters even better than BMPs.

[StuTika]

haha, then you will like GSh-30K(30mm) mounted on Mi-24 with its 2500rpm RoF

Woo I want that chopper now! Is that the huge attack chopper that also has transport seats? And I'm sure that gun is in PR on a jet...

hahaa i also have this book its so cool

Good book, isn't it?

Of course, it would still end up being about 300 and 900 RPM in game, but w/e.

Dual fire rates and dual feed for both HE and AP would be awesome. A slower, but nonetheless extremely effective 300 RPM that doesn't wouldn't overheat as much and would conserve ammo, or the all out where the gun may overheat faster and is an ammo guzzler, btu could take down helicopters even better than BMPs.

Yup, sure would be cool. Since you're quite 'in' with the CA crowd, let me ask you this: I'm guessing for this to work we'd need four weapons, each with a different RoF and ammo type, but all laid on top of each other on the chopper so they seem like the same cannon?

Like this:

Slot 1: AP 300 rpm

Slot 2: HE 300 rpm

Slot 3: AP 800 rpm

Slot 4: HE 800 rpm

then

Slot 5: Laser guided missiles

Slot 6: Laser targeted missiles


And can I ask why it would end up as 300 and 900?

Stu.

[McBumLuv]

And can I ask why it would end up as 300 and 900?

Stu.

Ofcourse. Due to the way BF2 works, it has set Rate of Fires that are usable.

One limitation of this is the fire rates that are usable by BF2 which is: 30, 60, 120, 300, 600, 900, 1200, 1800.

It's why the A-10 in game only has ~500 rounds instead of 1350. In game, it fires at 1800 RPM, but fires two shots at a time so it seems like 3600 RPM (thoug each two-shots counts as one ammo unit, meaning that you'll still expend the 500 "rounds" in the roughly same amount of time as an A-10 firing 1350 rounds at 3900 RPM).

So limited by this, the only three variables we could really use are: 300, 600 and 900.

900 is a hell of alot closer to 800 than 600, and the BMP already fires at 600 RPM, which is good with a stable Ground to Air firing position, but air to Air would require an even higher RPM for the same effectiveness.

Anyways, as for layout, I'd personally prefer:

1: Freeview
2: HE 300 RPM
3: HE 900 RPM
4: AP 300 RPM
5: AP 900 RPM
6: AT-9 ATGMs manual
7: AT-9 ATGMs lock-based.

[DankE_SPB]

Woo I want that chopper now! Is that the huge attack chopper that also has transport seats?

yep, Mi-24

And I'm sure that gun is in PR on a jet...

that gun on SU-25 is a bit different, GSh-30 with 3000rpm RoF
GSh-30

Slot 1: AP 300 rpm
Slot 2: HE 300 rpm
Slot 3: AP 800 rpm
Slot 4: HE 800 rpm

if its the only way to implement it i foresee one huge problem: each slot will have its own overheat state(like now, if you re overheated on AP switch on HE and fire), but now we have only 2, in this case we will have 4
thats been said ofcourse if overheat linked to weapon slot, not round type

[McBumLuv]

if its the only way to implement it i foresee one huge problem: each slot will have its own overheat state(like now, if you re overheated on AP switch on HE and fire), but now we have only 2, in this case we will have 4
thats been said ofcourse if overheat linked to weapon slot, not round type

A rather important question, but what is the recommended ammount of fire in either type to avoid overheating? Because depending on how big a problem Overheating is IRL it should be thought of and attempted to be modeled ingame as such to the best of our ability.

[DankE_SPB]

A rather important question, but what is the recommended ammount of fire in either type to avoid overheating? Because depending on how big a problem Overheating is IRL it should be thought of and attempted to be modeled ingame as such to the best of our ability.

check this

stuff below is about 2A42 cannon mounted on BMP-2

it says maximum allowed to fire on high ROF round count is 100(50 round persistent burst then 50 in bursts). Afterwards full cooling of barrel required

taken from here "technical description and exploitation instruction"

and about firing in bursts

In order so save ammo it is recommended to fire on low RoF at ground targets in bursts of next length:
distance <500m - 2-3 rounds
distance <1000m - 4-5 rounds
distance <1500m - 8-10 rounds
Main RoF for aerial targets is high RoF with burst length of 17-50 rounds
as I can judge from it overheating is not a big deal to worry about

i also heard claims, that Havoc can shoot out all its ammoload in non-stop burst, but never found actual proof for it

[jbgeezer]

i also heard claims, that Havoc can shoot out all its ammoload in non-stop burst, but never found actual proof for it

Would not the gun overheat then, danke?

[StuTika]

Probably, but because it's then out of ammo, it's not a problem!

Thanks for the info about BF2 McLuv, the engine seems really god at first but when you come to do some really detailed modding you find all these daft little limitations...the RoFs are a bit annoying, especially seeing as a large portion of modern assault rifles shoot at 800 rpm.

So 900 would have to be used, but the 4 separate overheats is a bit of an issue...IMO it's worth it for a more realistic weapon system.
Judging by the data from DankE, I would say the current overheat level of about 70-odd rounds is about right.
Is it not possible to have a python code so that when one weapon overheats, they all go to full heat? Or maybe stop working for a period of time? Like with turret disabling?

Stu.

[General Dragosh]

This is awesome =D

[StuTika]

Soooo, any word from a DEV on this? Seems possible.

Stu.

[McBumLuv]

check this




i also heard claims, that Havoc can shoot out all its ammoload in non-stop burst, but never found actual proof for it

Yup, I was originally going by that, but I was wondering if conditions were at all different, considering that it's used in at different ROFs, and it's also much harder to change a barrel in mid air than with a tracked vehicle I'm sure

Though, if there IS any evidence that it can fire off it's entire ammunition, then our small dilemma over the overheating mechanism reseting with each new weapon is solved