Lower Artillery and Mortar and JDAM Recharge Time?

[Sniperdog]

I think we could (probably) all agree that in a real life conventional battle of a size comparable to that which typically occurs in PR, if any side had access to either artillery, JDAMs or mortar strikes to begin with, then the bombardment would likely occur more frequently then what is actually allowed in PR (a limit of 60 minutes).

Or in layman's terms Big boomies don't happen often in PR.

Any experienced PR player will know that the problem here is nowhere near as simple as that. When the problem is boiled down to its core I believe there are 3 things which arise as deciding factors for the outcome of this problem (or any other problem encountered in PR for that matter). These factors are Realism, Teamwork, and Gameplay (the three things which PR is all about).

<note: from here on out when i say area attacks (AAs) it refers to JDAMs, Artillery and Mortars>

ALSO: This idea does not apply to insurgency.

The realism side of things:

In real conventional warfare Artillery can win the war. It is a tool often used whenever it is a feasible option. With AAs the primary detriments to use are the availability of munitions, and the risk of collateral damage (Destroy property / Kill civilians) provided the AA is within range of a desired target (which is the true in any PR battle where a certain AA is available).
Now a days we have a LOT of artillery munitions available and in conventional warfare depending on the location of the battle collateral damage is often a secondary concern (I say it like that because in urban or counter-terrorism warefare those two things may prevent the use of AAs.) It is because of this that in modern conventional war (which doesn't happen often if at all) artillery would likely be very predominant. It is almost a given in modern war that one side would be able to blow a selected patch of earth sky high if they wanted to.

Bottom Line:
In modern conventional warfare, AAs are more prevalent then is represented in PR conventional battles.

I believe that the above should be held as a given and the factors that really counter the implementation of artillery as would be realistic are gameplay and teamwork. How AAs would affect Gameplay and teamwork are what really need to be discussed in this thread.

The gameplay side of things:

This is really the big question mark when it comes to the lowering of AA recharge time in game. What would happen if every time you tried to defend something all you saw was artillery on your position. This is what really needs to be discussed. Would artillery really affect gameplay that much? I want to say probably not but neither I nor anyone else can really do much besides speculate (or perhaps stress test). I personally think that PR players would be able to easily adapt to this addition as they have done to so many other realistic game additions and in the end they would likely behave in a more realistic manner because of it. But hey lets discuss it.

Bottom Line:
Nobody can really say definitively how this would affect gameplay without actually playing the game with the change included (but hey we can speculate).

The Teamwork side of things:

Some may disagree but I believe that artillery is a tool that arises out of teamwork and coordination. This is only really true when it is request-able by squad leaders because it becomes another option for squad leaders when they are faced with enemy encounters. It can never be used without squad leader presence which would likely lower the chance of it being used to mindlessly rape the enemy. The way I see it artillery is another weapon that a SL has at his disposal when his team has a commander. When you get killed by an artillery shell in game you may think your getting killed via a stupid and cheap means but I think you actually got killed by the squad leader on the other team who called it on you. In addition to this lower AA recharge times would make squad leaders more inclined to work with the commander and would make potential commanders more inclined to take the position.

Bottom Line:
The implementation of more realistic AA recharge times would likely encourage its use for coordination between the commander and squads. It would give squad leaders another effective and convenient weapon for their arsenal, and would give potential commanders incentive for the position.


OVERALL POINT:
I believe it is reasonable enough that Area Attack recharge times are currently too high and should be lowered. I could picture a good balance between the aforementioned factors (reality, gameplay and teamwork) arising if the AA recharge time were lowered to at least 30-35 minutes and ideally to 20-25 minutes.

Please discuss Without personal attacks. (content only)

ps. I'm aware there is a grammatical error in the thread title. I can't do anything about it >.>
pps. The cake is a lie.

[Vege]

Usually mortar strike will destroy a cache if pulled correctly.
In theory 20min between reloads would mean possibility of 12 mortar strikes.
In organized matches INS would not have a change.
Caches would just be mortared to oblivion.

Still in INS gamemode IMHO Bluefor should have more frequent AA than defending side, just to boost realism.

[TheLean]

Yes, you nailed the problem of realism vs gameplay pretty good. IRL most casualties in wars are by different forms of explosives, most of the time delivered by artillery or air. But to die in a blast that comes from nowhere is pretty boring ingame.. What to do, what to do..

Maybe lower the timer but decrease the accuracy of area attacks (Dead on arty is pretty unrealistic anyway, whatch youtube videos from afghanistan where they call in arty and have to correct them since they miss the target.)

Maybe lower the timer but decrease the damage (Isnt the JDAM a bit overpowered? Its totally cool but I dont know how realistic it is.)

I am up for more area attacks if the problem with caches is solved, Also a FOB should be somewhat resistent to area attacks. Face it, a few mortars aint gonna knock down sandbags.

Btw, I like how area attacks is only requestable by squadleaders, it creates more coordination with the commander. The commander is alot more prevalent (did i spell it right?) now that we have the UAV anyways, good times, good times.. I had a lot of fun on UKWF on kwai last friday. The commander coordinated so that the entire chinese team were assaulting OBJECTIVE 60 and I requested the JDAM on the americans defending it, hehe, that was one hell of a show.

[Sniperdog]

I actually think my idea should really only apply to conventional matches and not insurgency matches. In real life insurgency being able to use artillery on insurgents is almost never an option. This is because hiding among the civilian populace is an extremely common and effective insurgent tactic which makes collateral damage an overwhelming determent. That's not to say it can't ever be done but certainly a lowered delay to 20-35 minutes would not simulate that aspect of anti-insurgency combat well.

But to die in a blast that comes from nowhere is pretty boring ingame..

You must consider though that it really isn't a blast from nowhere but rather a weapon being used by a squad leader on the other team who wants you dead. It is just like his squad shooting at you except with slightly bigger bullets that require more coordination to use.

[Ironfist7997]

whilst artillery is not common for insurgent forces - mortars certainly are available and were used very frequently in iraq. But they were used against static blufor positions - FOBs and main bases - as harassing fire, especially during the night.

It doesn't need to be accurate as the general aim is to cause fear and fatigue. INS forces would deploy a mortar tube and team, lob a few shells and then pack up and drive away, in classic shoot and scoot fashion.

In game tho this would only be useful in a base defence scenario on an INS map.

Whilst i would like to see fire support become more available it should have a random scatter built into the accuracy so as to reduce the likelyhood of it being used as a cache killer.

or the other idea would be that the only way to kill the cache would be to find it, secure it and then have a combat engineer dismantle it with his wrench. Of course INS forces would not be able to spawn on the cache once secured, ie similar to a flag when its neutral.

I feel it could lead to greater coordination between squads, allow fire support to be used to help clear an area and would give the CE kit a bit more purpose on INS maps.

[@bsurd]

i like the idea very much. Everything what makes a big booom on the battlefield is welcome for me!

But its right, to test it out to get a good balance for the delay timer. But 20 min sounds good.

[KasperX]

whilst artillery is not common for insurgent forces - mortars certainly are available and were used very frequently in iraq. But they were used against static blufor positions - FOBs and main bases - as harassing fire, especially during the night.

It doesn't need to be accurate as the general aim is to cause fear and fatigue. INS forces would deploy a mortar tube and team, lob a few shells and then pack up and drive away, in classic shoot and scoot fashion.

In game tho this would only be useful in a base defence scenario on an INS map.

Whilst i would like to see fire support become more available it should have a random scatter built into the accuracy so as to reduce the likelyhood of it being used as a cache killer.

or the other idea would be that the only way to kill the cache would be to find it, secure it and then have a combat engineer dismantle it with his wrench. Of course INS forces would not be able to spawn on the cache once secured, ie similar to a flag when its neutral.

I feel it could lead to greater coordination between squads, allow fire support to be used to help clear an area and would give the CE kit a bit more purpose on INS maps.

I really really like that idea!!! CE become a vital part of any squad searching for caches and gives the kit a revitalized role in PR. Not only that, but I believe this will only increase the amount of teamwork and squad co-ordination needed to be successful in S&D caches. While I wouldn't mind having more mortars and shells falling from above, I don't think they should be able to destroy caches/FOB's. I think that it should take some kind of man power to destroy them. Keep the ideas flowing boyz, it only helps the PR team develop this mod into something even better.

Kasp

[joethepro36]

I think the current 60 minutes is far too high myself, the effect of an area attack is so low as to barely have an effect on the battlefield over the course of a full game. This is particularly true when a jdam glitches or on kashan (where jets can produce a smaller version at will). Also, I currently find mortars at 30 minutes to still not have a significant effect on the battlefield due to their lack of power compared to arty or a jdam.

My ideal time would be 20 minutes for mortars and 30 minutes for arty/jdam, any lower and then requests would be called in on very small troop concentrations or thrown away on sight. This also boosts the power of the commander and makes him all the more necessary.

[Alex6714]

I think the solution is tweaked player controlled arty like FH2, no overhead camera/uav blurry b/w view, reload and ammo times to fit (like for example a mag of 5 rounds at 60rpm, with a reload time of 15 mins between mags).

That is the ultimate solution for teamwork, somewhat more realistic arty, not spammy but not non existent and ultimately more fun.

[Jedimushroom]

I think this idea is brilliant, gives the commander more to do, encourages teamwork and is more realistic. On top of all that it helps prevent camping and dumb sniper teams, which is always a plus.

[Joe_Pineapples_ABC]

Is it possible, rather than to time limit the Arty by recharging, to limit the number of times it may be dropped per round or per hour and have a really short reload time, say 2 mins?

I'm thinking 2 or 3 strikes per hour or 5 or 6 per match, available at the start of the round but once they're gone they're gone, no recharge.

In this manner the commander would have the option of drop lagre amounts of arty onto a positon to soften it up or holding the arty in reserve. If an idiot gets the commanders spot there could be a problem but the limited amount available would soon mean they are no longer a threat and in any case a squad leader is still required to call it in.

[Rudd]

I think JDAM should be replaced with arty until it is made effective. But I do think the timers should be decreased by 10mins or so.

Though I'd much rather multiple, smaller strikes avaliable.

then the commander can decide

"do I use all three NOW? or save 2 for later?"

[Sniperdog]

Is it possible, rather than to time limit the Arty by recharging, to limit the number of times it may be dropped per round or per hour and have a really short reload time, say 2 mins?

I'm thinking 2 or 3 strikes per hour or 5 or 6 per match, available at the start of the round but once they're gone they're gone, no recharge.

In this manner the commander would have the option of drop lagre amounts of arty onto a positon to soften it up or holding the arty in reserve. If an idiot gets the commanders spot there could be a problem but the limited amount available would soon mean they are no longer a threat and in any case a squad leader is still required to call it in.

I would be all in favor of this idea but sadly (at least with commander style artillery) you can only set up a delay between strikes. No ammo component exists.

Here is what it looks like (I've labled what we have to work with)

rem [ObjectSpawnerTemplate: mortar_0]
ObjectTemplate.create ObjectSpawner mortar_0
ObjectTemplate.activeSafe ObjectSpawner mortar_0
ObjectTemplate.modifiedByUser "fuzzhead"
ObjectTemplate.isNotSaveable 1
ObjectTemplate.hasMobilePhysics 0
ObjectTemplate.setObjectTemplate 1 mortar_team1 <-------- Area Attack type
ObjectTemplate.minSpawnDelay 1800 <------------- 1800 seconds = 30 minutes
ObjectTemplate.maxSpawnDelay 1800
ObjectTemplate.spawnDelayAtStart 1 <-------------can only be used 30 minutes into the round
ObjectTemplate.team 1
ObjectTemplate.teamOnVehicle 1

further the code found for <mortar_team1> can be changed to edit the style and power of explosion, number of shots per round, dispersion and such.

Essentially a new vehicle that can be expent spawns in to the map at each time interval. One of the reasons Player controlled artillery would be nice if it could be made right would be because you can add in an ammo component. Sadly vBF2 devs made the commander artillery as it is and there really isn't much we can do to change it without source code.

[Alex6714]

From artillery_team1.tweak

ObjectTemplate.activeSafe GenericFireArm artillery_team1_Barrel
ObjectTemplate.modifiedByUser nfe
ObjectTemplate.keepProjectiles 180
rem ---BeginComp:SingleFireComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent SingleFireComp
ObjectTemplate.fire.roundsPerMinute 15
ObjectTemplate.fire.fireStartDelay CRD_NORMAL/1/2/0
ObjectTemplate.fire.addFireRate 1
ObjectTemplate.fire.burstSize 15
rem ---EndComp ---
rem ---BeginComp efaultAmmoComp ---
ObjectTemplate.createComponent DefaultAmmoComp
ObjectTemplate.ammo.nrOfMags -1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.magSize -1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.autoReload 1
ObjectTemplate.ammo.reloadWithoutPlayer 1
rem ---EndComp ---


though looks like the arty is done through a few things so its probably not as simple a change as it looks.

[{E-Z}Poli]

hmm, food for thought.
I for one am allways gun-ho for commanders to use the strikes ASAP.
The reload timer only works after its used no?

[Sniperdog]

hmm, food for thought.
I for one am allways gun-ho for commanders to use the strikes ASAP.
The reload timer only works after its used no?

Correct. The way it works is once the timer expires the vehicle spawns into the map (note: not the geometry of the gun itself which is there the whole time) and once the vehicle spawns in it can be activated by the given team's commander only. Once activated it runs through some wacky hardcode im pretty sure we dont see in any files we have access to (the code which gives it the proper trajectery to fire on) and then it fires one magazine of ammo on burst mode. After it has fired the vehicle disappears and doesn't reappear until the timer i pointed out above has been spent. The timer starts when the vehicle disappears (ie when the area attack is used)

[sparks50]

Im all for this idea as long as it does not involve Insurgency. Artillery is fun for SL and commander, and encourages teamwork.

[=Romagnolo=]

I think the solution is tweaked player controlled arty like FH2

That is the ultimate solution for teamwork, somewhat more realistic arty, not spammy but not non existent and ultimately more fun.

I agree, I remember when I used to play the first Forgotten Hope. I always wanted to play as the arty operator, where the player could control 5 cannons.

[gaurd502]

I love the Forgotten hope two artillery but:
"(like for example a mag of 5 rounds at 60rpm, with a reload time of 15 mins between mags)."

I know I would not like shooting five shots then having to wait fifteen minutes. This type of artillery would be much harder to use. Maybe when the SL asks for artillery a request is sent to the commander?