Regarding the vehicles

[Paladin Necroman]

Hello, i saw the topic talking about not puting planes or tanks against FARC, but that wouldn't make sence, since we already got maps with tanks against insurgents, witch is already a 'faction' itself... It makes no sence, since the FARC really are much well armed than the insurgents, it's like an well organized army, in theory, way more organised than the middle eastern insurgents and we got tanks against them in the game. You can tell that by the photos, looking that they even got their own uniform and have their own training camps hidden in the jungle.
Brazil also uses airplanes against small planes that might carrie drugs or if they are illegal or non-declared, so you just tell me if they'd use it against an well organized faction like FARC. Insurgents are much more "improvised", and still there are maps with tanks against them (wich btw can be a pain in the *** lol. weel, what adds to that is the fact that it adds more gameplay).




Also, take in consideration these news, to analise how any airforce and mechanized infantry would react to such treats, any would react at same height if in dangers of such nature and some other cases. The real army can not ignore what FARC represents in threats.

Here's what one of the DEV's said, so compare it to the actual news.
"theres no way to use tanks, planes or whatever deadlier equipment agains FARC."



http://noticias.terra.com.br/noticias/0 ... bordo.html

http://desastresaereosnews.blogspot.com ... om-15.html

http://www.estadao.com.br/arquivo/mundo ... p25709.htm

(portuguese)"A guerrilha das Forças Armadas Revolucionárias da Colômbia (Farc) afirmou neste sábado ter derrubado um pequeno avião espião americano..."

"The 'FARC' afirmed this saturday to have shut down an american spy aircraft..."

(portuguese)"Mais de 3 mil soldados, com apoio de helicópteros
artilhados e aviões de combate, participam da gigantesca
operação de busca e resgate dos três americanos."

"More than 3 thousand soldiers, with support of helicopters equiped with artillery and combat airplanes, participated of a gigantic operation of search and rescue of the three Americans..."

http://noticias.uol.com.br/inter/afp/20 ... 46141.jhtm

[Salmonella]

Hello.....

Of course FARC have more power and organization than Middle East insurgents, but we just trying to keep the reality, Amazon operations are based on infantry/light vehciels, we have Tucano doing bomb runs on known enemy positions and thats all.

I (speaking only for myself) don't like "near future predictions" like this, furthermore I like to develop something more balanced than the actuall Insurgent game mode.

We had internals diccusions about upcoming rifles, armor, aircraft and more, but most of it wasn't decided yet, isn't fully operational or isn't real.

So, i'll quote myself "theres no way to use tanks, planes or whatever deadlier equipment agains FARC."!!!

[Paladin Necroman]

"(speaking only for myself) don't like "near future predictions" like this, furthermore I like to develop something more balanced than the actuall Insurgent game mode."

The first time i saw that post, i said: "yeah. ok", but then thinking about again, i said- "Wait a minute!"... Here's that feeling again, lol.

Why you say so if the original concept of the game is to make it more realistic?And why you said that if most of the factions currently are "predictions", like the Chinese against US?

Added to that: so much data around, actual kidnapped people, drug conections, more and more often situations regarding FARC, Brazil's Airforce recent decision to more fiscalization on illegal aircraft, it makes it very much consistent to me. US and China conflict are way more distant than FARC against Brazil. By now, we have endless data to enforce this position, by one side, the game dynamics and original proposal and by another, actual basis on what's going on... I really don't see why not...

I'd say you must follow the original basis of what has been done. Make it more balanced? Well, this is easy to answer to: the insurgents don't lose tickets when they die, americans do, insurgents have mines, ied's but don't have armor. Us has armor, but don't have any explosives, apart from the limited kit, so these are realistic stuff that happens in the real combat wich pretty much almost evens the sides, but important to take note is that these are actual elements used and taken into consideration to try to even the battle. So, every conflict can find it's elements to even inside it's particularities.

As you said before, it's not yet all decided and stuff, and you'll make use of bombings, but here's more conclusive data to influence your decisions.
I strongly advise you DEV's to take this consideration further. It's a fan(s) with data you'r talking to, and here's the responsebility to the game concepts lol.

When you read this one in particular and search around the net for more information regarding it's realism features to include airplanes and/or tanks assets and consider what has been going on in the other factions, I'm sure you'll see the consistency and possiblities of what can be done. It would be used to much enrich the particular experience of these 2 peculiar factions in the game. I've stored this particular data on my favortires some time ago, taking notes on this subject, here's a special use that has come up, and fits like a glove for the occasion:


Até 40 rebeldes colombianos morrem em bombardeio -  Mundo - MSN Notícias

English:

"Up to 40 Columbian rebels die in bombing BOGOTA (Reuters) -

Between 30 and 40 members of the biggest rebellious army of Colombia had been killed when forces of the government bombed its position in the mountainous central province of Tolima, said a local authority in the friday. The attack brandished one of the biggest blows of this year against the marxist guerrilla of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc), that was pushed for deeper in agricultural isolation for the measures of security of president Alvaro Uribe, supported for U.S.A. A local leader of the known FARC as Hieronymite can have been dead in the attack of the thursday, said to the local radio the governor of Tolima, Barreto Oscar...."

[Salmonella]

I have no reasons to argue with you, its MY opinion and that’s YOURS, we can't judge each other.

You wrote about expectations and other Comfacs,

What I(only me, not the team) see in Comfacs (with all respect to them)is each country putting all their available firepower (even if isn't real) to fight the same poor punch bags.

The 2 full scale OPFOR you cited(MEC and PLA), aren't real, neither made by their own people, and why I thinks its cool? for being fictional? No, for being balanced against USA and GB
Russian vs Chechen is cool as well, and they are real and balanced.

What I'm trying to say is that we can make a cool and balanced game without unreal features.
____________________________________

Alright, assuming you still don't agree with me, what are your suggestions of assets and balances for our BRAZIL vs FARC conflict? and then, what can you do to help us?

[Paladin Necroman]

matter effect, I made my point, and my point takes into consideration facts, as opposed to something i considered not to be the most proper decision given all facts and circunstances, independent of opinions. It's a highlight onto something either unnoticed or unknown.
I'd call opinion weather or not you like red or blue out of nothing.
Weather you like it or not the rain
I'd call a point arguing about weather you put red or blue on a flag given a contry's peculiar circunstances, for the concrete facts a colour represents or if raining is bad for car traffic as it represents causes of concrete traffic jams; on a contex, given the facts, with co-relations;

Cause - the game already has examples of how a tank can work against insurgency; the game aims realism;the specific FARC has had shut down airplanes, got involved with possible heavy armory to shut down a plane in real life.

Effect/co-relation - given the known experiences with insurgency in the game, tanks could be applied here; the game must follow an original pattern and realism...


We can't judge each other but we can build something judging facts, that takes the parts into consense. Makes sense why i say "opinion" way of analising is a bad habit? Bud, because i tried out to put good basis, just, you know , as someone who looks from outside, you know, a highlight of unoticed facts, not a pretentious big fat opinion.

____________________


That's what i said: the current PLA in game for example uses the J-10 in real life.
US vs Insurgents- it's balanced with it's unique real features.

I think i already helped highlighting this stuff for now, as i thought to be the main thing i just noticed.
Moving up to a specific choice of a vehicle, couldn't discuss that into specific matter and facts, i have no technical knowledge on that, weather what vehicle would be used in a specific occasion, the main thing to put out was that some vehicle like tanks or planes could be used.

By the way, for now i pretty much like the work, so i wanted to give some detail on what i think nobody noticed for a fact. the "wait a minute" stuff.

[Salmonella]

Moving up to a specific vehicle chose, the choice of the vehicle would depend on the map and "story" behind, and how and where would be used.

now you get where I wanted to, what the "story" behind it? You wrote several things about it, but still don't see where you find something to justify the employment of heavier assets.

If you can figure out a "story" to put tanks, fighters, bombers and etc inside the Amazon jungle, I really like to hear it.

What you gonna do with a tank? roll all over the trees where barely a man can pass trough? and with a bomber? burn all our beloved jungle to ashes so you can find the enemy?

The further I can go is, after 2015 (if the world still exists) FARC activities intensified, there are many “compounds” into the jungle, Brazil build ups dozen of new ground bases and heavily increase the ground troops, the Mi-35 together with the Rafales helps with CAS and surveillance, that’s all, still no tanks, apcs, napalm or nukes

I'm not against vehicle warfare, just not in this scenario.

[Paladin Necroman]

It looks like you ignored all links i put. How about that 40 colombian killed?
How about a highjacked airplane? that could be made up as a stole airplane, wich could be used for transport; for a counter-attack, a tucano fighter, without rockets. Something like that taking reference news.

Tanks could be as well be used at the big devastaded areas, citie limits... as reference that map you made... you have roads that cut the jungle, wide sand areas, big camps...
Tanks are used in the russian map with lots of trees. Brazil uses tanks in amazonia, look at the pictures in the net and written information.

The tucano could be used as anti-troops without rockets, or maybe about 6 rockets, and troops could have anti-air assets or hand mounted (that one- "american spy airplane shutdown")

Well, you have also wide plantations of cocane, and cattle camps for tanks. Tanks were used in Vietnam. And in Battlefield Vietnam dense and small jungle maps. Hmm... and amphybious vehicles.

There you go, lots of examples of jungle scenarios that already used tanks

[Paladin Necroman]

The airplane could be used to attack FARC cocaine camps, or something like an objective guarded with like 4 to 6 AA's, but only 1 attack airplane to the map. Or something like "retrieve the stolen FAB airplane"

[FPaiva]

That was already dicussed.

Closed

[FPaiva]

Opened due to community vote.

[Borisbr]

Hi Paladin, thank you for your feedback, especialy because you took time to research to make your point, those kind of discussions are always healthy. And its a good thing that you brought this up, so we can share our point of view not only with you but with everyone that follow our faction progress here.

I'd also like to add that most of us doesnt dominate english perfectly, causing some minor miscomunications, wich i think happened here on this topic.

This project is not new, I think it has been over then a couple years that we started to work on this faction, maybe more, I'm not sure because I joined the team a few months ago. Thats the reason why when we came public, we had a lot of work already done and almost every single thing that you pointed out have been extensively discussed by us before we done that. But it doesnt mean we are closed out to new ideas.

We are trying to make the factions as close to the reality as it can be in regards to tactis and equipment without hurting the gameplay. We cannot make a overwhelming Brazilian Army that will make FARC players want to switch sides, nor the oposite.

All that beeing said, lets get to the point:

The main core of Brazilian Armored Companies are garrisoned on the south, near the borders of Paraguay, Urugay and Argentina where the landscape make the best use of those.

The Brazilian Army does NOT use armor on their operations on amazon, simply because they are unefective. Its impossible to operate a 45t Leopard tank on a rain forest, due to the muddy terrain and the forest itself.

The major part of our maps will be of dense, closed forest. There will be little open areas and suitable places for tanks. Our maps will not be like Qiling or Fools Road, think about 10x more trees. Think about only a couple routes to take and few open areas, now think about the waste of assets that happen every day on most servers. A tank, would only be one more thing to drain tickets from the blufor.

Dispite all that, we are gonna put the amphibeous APC, EE-11 Urutu, in some of our maps.

About the AT-29 Super Tucano, we really wanted to put him on the mod, because its such a unique vehicle and excels on its job, but we couldnt come up with anything to counter it. It's hard enough to kill an airplaine in a map like Kashan that have many types of AA's and a really far viewing distance, now imagine trying to kill an airplane with no more then a handheld AA in a map 80% covered by huge trees. An airplane with a good pilot would dominate even further on such map.

But something that you might not know is that we are going to put both transport and CAS choppers available for the brazilian faction.

Also something that is really important for you to understand is that the Army Infantry Divisions based on amazon are highly trained to operate on that terrain, they are recognised arround the world as one of the best, if not the best, jungle combatants.

Another thing to add is that every single Army and Air Force soldier consider Amazon to be the greatest treasure that Brazil has, and have a deep connection with it, specially those who are based there, the ones were trying to represent on this mod.

Having tanks run over or just bomb the **** out of it is just not an option for these guys, specially on assymetrial warfare against soft targets.

But hey, thats only the ideas for our first release. No one would like more to see all of the equipments that Brazil has on the mod then us. We have some toughts on what comes next after this first release, perhaps a Brazil vs Venezuela conflict or the Brazilian Marines on Minustah (Haiti).

[Paladin Necroman]

I much agree with you sir, i think there's been a comunication issue.

Well, but now, to everything you said, it makes much sense now, thank you for the attention.

Ok, i get the tank part, and i can draw the correlations between tanks being used in the open fields of the south part of brazil, and tanks being used in the vast open deserts, so these come together to the idea of how a tanks is used...

But it comes again to mind that tanks have been used in the real tiny maps of BF:V, (i can recal it well) and actual combat in Vietnam jungles, i'd like to discuss more on that...

But following that whole plane idea, i had in mind on using those airplanes, to put the FARC's AA's at the high places on the map, but they'd have to be the regular ground based and added in strategic points (it just comes to mind now that movie "Behind Enemy Lines" plane crash by AA hardware, even thought it's in Russia and may have it's open fields, well just an example that came by of a plane crash in a wild area) around the map (such as hill tops), and anti-air guns would be added to the requested kits... I think it's possible, you could give it a try, perhaps make a model and try it yourselves to see how it works. I think it's worth it and there's ways to balance FARC against planes, since we have to remember that Tucano is not close to a fighter jet in terms of speed , firepower and avionics, so yeah, thats a pretty strong thing to consider encounters against AA. And yes well... to my experience when you'r locked on to an AA in kashan open areas and you'r in your fancy jet, u have to stick ur fingers at that flare button and get ur nose up in the sky not to die, plus pressing the afterburner with all your faith...
The Tucano varies depending on the weapon choice, like i said before, to even it out, you have the option to put or not the rockets, that makes diference on how deadly and vulnerable. A proper look up on either the plane equipments and the FARC AA elemets such as it's positions, numbers, is something easy to see from here.
Lets say, on a map with better positions on AA and the whole army, a Tucano with rockets. On a map with worse conditions for FARC, a tucano with only a main machine-gun. There! Perfect!


Of course a Tucano would behave in the BF2 engine much diferent than the regular jets by now on it's basic set out and we could vary according to what we want based on real elements. Also, the AA's can lock on even when it's a bit out of sight or height with it's electronic radars.
Tucano is way more vulnerable to AA's whatever kind, you can enhance that idea on the news colected, that FARC actualy shot down an american spy plane! so yeah that's some strong stuff to have a better look. FARC is well armed to shut down these aircrafts from the news. And planes are important on monitoring Amazonia, and i have been looking on the news and it's been some time ago since the government decision to harshen the air-space patrol in Amazonia, it means planes have been more present at the area, it's a good thing to showcase and one more reason to demonstrate out to the world the Brazilian army and hardware and please the honourable officers of the armed forces, after all, the Tucano is genuine brazilian. After all, the tucano was produced on brazilian human effort.

A good call, it just fits in the idea perfectly, either the game dynamics that can be adapted, the realism, and the responsebility i can see you are in and attentious on the brazilian army you are going to depict out. We must answer it.

[Borisbr]

It's kinda hard for you to understand what I'm trying to say, in regards to maps, if you never saw them. I mean, the ammount of trees, its just crazy! Did you watch the jungle videos? I'm gonna check with the other guys if I can send you a link with one of the maps so we can get on the same page here.

I think that the main focus of someone who's making a game (or a mod in our case) has not only to do a really detailed and good looking game, but also a fun one. We are trying on our best efforts to do that, and on our case, fun means balanced.

Knowing the circunstances of our faction, my opinion is that, it would be extremely realistic to bring the Tucano to the mod, but it would also disrupt the gameplay because FARC wouldnt have anything to counter it.

The so called "american spy plane" that FARC claimed to take down (theres no confirmation of that) wasnt a UAV or anything like that, it was a colombian Cessna, a really slow and low flying airplane, that had 2 colombian officers and 3 americans, that FARC also claimed to be CIA agents (theres also no confirmation on that).

The colombian government has taken a really strong and aggressive position against FARC on the past couple of years, and the result is that FARC lost a large part of its controlled territory and its also loosing a lot of its numbers. So far, there have been not aprehended a single AA missle. The supposely "american spy plane" was shot down by small arms fire.

Edit:

Something that I forgot to say, we are having some serious issues regarding hardware performance on our maps, due to the large number of vegetation. We were only able to make 2x2km maps so far with a decent fps and no lag issues. If we cannot find a way arround it, we wont be able to make 4x4km maps. Without those, doenst make much sense putting paratroopers or an airplane flying arround.

[Paladin Necroman]

I understank the tank issue, but you didn't say anything about battlefield vietnam and the real vietnam war.

You also didn't say anything about the many ways to balance it using realistic and fun elements.

[Borisbr]

Well, its kinda hard to compare PR to any vBF, PR is much more focused on teamwork while vBF is much faster pace all-you-can-kill madness. vBF is pretty much arcade, almost no regard to reality.

On the Vietnam war, heavy armor were very little used. I know the most armored vehicle used was the M-113 apc, but we are also gonna make apcs available to the BR faction.

We are gonna adapt some stuff to the current game modes that PR offer, we also have some ideias about new game modes, but right now, we are engaged on getting the mod to a point where we can start to test things.

I cannot tell you if we are gonna bring new elements or not, simply because we cannot test our ideias and see if it works. But hopefully, we will be able to do that soon.

[Paladin Necroman]

Ok, cool...

But you still didn't give me your position on that idea (back onto the other post) to balance the Tucanos...

[Black/Brunez]

Well,armored vehicles don´t works very well on the Amazon Forest. Perhaps the only Brazilian tank that can to appear there is the EE-9 Cascavel. But send tanks just to destroy drug deposits and illegal runways is too much, and the game need to be balanced.
About the Tucanos, I have no idea about how to balance it =(
I was thinking about on the Farc´s vehicles. if it´s even difficult for an Urutu to cross the Amazon Forest, cars and pickups have even less access. I´m not saying about removing the farc´s vehicles, but to add some light boats and helicopters is not a bad idea.
And I spotted that Venezuela will have some tanks and fighters. So add the Tucanos, Rafales-M, EE-9 Cascavels, M60 Pattons and Leopards 1A1/1A5, specially to fight against the country. To make possible the tank confront, How like to make a map on a Colombian urban area, were Venezuela is assaulting the position and Brazil is there to support on the Colombian forces. Remember that this is just a suggestion

And (on the future, of course) would not be a bad idea to make some operation on Haiti, remember that with the earthquake the situation there will become even worse.

And remember that those things that I wrote are just suggestions, and I know that I don´t have the best English

[cagumelo]

Black, what you sad has been alredy sugested, for now it will have ONLY BAF vs FARC, someday maybe we will have BAF vs VAF, not saying that its a bad idea, i'm just saying that for now it can't be done

[FPaiva]

The main design plan is Brazilian Army against FARC, but in the future it can be Brazilian Forces agains Venezuelan Forces and Brazilian Marines against Haiti Militia (Insurgency mode).
Maybe in a near future, factions like the Colombia, Chile and Argentina Would come in handy in a Alliance against Venezuela, Equador, Bolivia and Paraguai, since those 2 alliances are enemys and the South America seems to be walking into a war patch. I mean, with the activation of the 4th American Fleet and the Destination point of this fleet set to Colombia, Hugo Chavez in Venezuela is starting to buy more equipment than ever and Luiz Inácio (lula) is starting to follow his paths. Meanwhile, Venezuela, Bolivia, Paraguai and Equador forms a strong military-economic alliance and Hugo Chavez supports FARC, now, ELN have been allied to the FARC and USA government sources points that FARC have Al-Qaeda connections. In the other side, Brazil, Colombia, Chile and Argentina forms the top alliance on the theather.
Now the other countrys who can make any interventions here: The France (French Guiana) The Netherlands (Suriname) and the USA (to join colombia/Brazil efforts)

See? If a full war rages here, the whole region is going to blow and the clime is tense for now.

[Wilkinson]

Yeah. this forum is BAF and FARC Only really. VAF are not approved and when they are. They will for sure be set up against the Brazillians as well as the Dutch Marines. Way down the road atm but still there.