The Sad State of Fire Support

[mdterp1987]

PR's fire support system needs to be refurbished in order to instill much needed realism into the process and execution of it.

Fire support is the use of indirect fires (mortars, artillery, CCA, CAS, JDAMS). There are two main parts: requesting and approving fire support and the delivery of these assets.

The GLTD system is unrealistic in today's military (my perspective is from current service with a U.S. Army light infantry company). Squad leaders do not carry these and why their in-game is questionable. Most calls for support will be with a grid coordinate. How this would relate to in-game is by requesting for it by placing a map marker wherever you wanted support.
The only use for the GLTD is for lasing targets. But the GLTD isn't even carried by 99.99% of soldiers. We use, at most, an LLDR which is a 50 pound system that is usually set up in defensive positions.

SOLUTION: Make a new limited kit, the forward observer. 2 max per team with M4, GLTD, and radio. Commanders and SL's lose their GLTD (they have binos! why do riflemen even have these?!). LLDR/equivalent is made a deployable asset for forward outposts.

Delivery of Fires
The problem here is that calls for support are limited to field of view. Make it so you place a request anywhere on the map and that's where you get fires. Afraid of back flags/ bases getting mortared? IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!! that's realism.
Second, assets are waaayyy too rare on the battlefield. Every single firefight I was in had mortars or artillery called in.

SOLUTION: SL's and forward observer kit can call for mortars/artillery/JDAM anywhere on the map by right clicking a request. Mortars are weakened to a 35meter kill zone for each round with 4 or 6 rounds fired. Available every 10 minutes. Artillery is given a 50meter kill zone with 8 rounds. Available every 20 minutes.

[AgentMongoose]

Though I Dont and can't speak for the devs, I think I can explain this.
Pr is a very careful balance between realism and teamplay. Though some things are not the most realistic they are nessicary to adapt and compinsate for the limitations of the engine.
As for adding a forward observer kit i feel it would pull soldiers out of the fight unneededly given that there are so few already.

[Shaihuluid]

Though I Dont and can't speak for the devs, I think I can explain this.
Pr is a very careful balance between realism and teamplay. Though some things are not the most realistic they are nessicary to adapt and compinsate for the limitations of the engine.
As for adding a forward observer kit i feel it would pull soldiers out of the fight unneededly given that there are so few already.

...in other words, the devs hate arty fire

most likely never going to happen. I know, it bugs me too

[Hunt3r]

Yes area attacks are relatively limited, but it's for balance reasons. Remember BF2 arty?

CAS is like that because it increases teamwork and makes sure that the A-10s don't go running off on their own.

[DeltaFart]

I think this would be nice
But I doubt it lll be added, due to what others have said

[Hunt3r]

Also the A-10s and Apaches and whatnot won't get their lases, and that means they'll have to use laser guided.

[Jordanb716]

Why not just use the new system for calling out targets on the map with the squad leads "radio"? Could that be adapted for fire support as well? That would help get rid of the apparently very rare GLTDs and allow you to call fire support where you want it behind cover and all.

[Ls4SpeedPilot]

don't know what to say ...
suggestion sounds good but how would change the gameplay

[nathanator8811]

I like the idea in post 7. It would take out the unrealistically overabundant GLTDs, but still let SLs mark for CAS. It would also add a slight variation to fire support, because even with GPS guided munitions, pickle-barrel accuracy everytime is not gonna happen.

So how would it work though? Would it drop a marker essentially identical in form to the current laze marker, or something else? Another possibilty would have the SL radio drop a marker, but maybe with a random placement within, say, a 5-15m radius. The markers dropped by GLTDs would have no deviation in their placement.

As for kits, a seperate observer kit shouldn't be needed. Just remove the GLTD from the SL kit. Rename the "sniper" to "sniper/observer", and tada! The job is in the name.

[goguapsy]

I would like to see Riflemen (and everyone else) without a bino, only the SL. The guys without a bino could use a salute hand

[boilerrat]

Forward observer = already suggested.

[Mongolian_dude]

I would like to see Riflemen (and everyone else) without a bino, only the SL. The guys without a bino could use a salute hand

Before they absolutely creamed? If I use irons I HAVE to use binos, so i can find the guy with the scope shooting at me and fire back and pretend I have a scope so he thinks that hes in some form of danger


...mongol...

[mdterp1987]

As for adding a forward observer kit i feel it would pull soldiers out of the fight unneededly given that there are so few already.

In RL, a forward observer is in every infantry platoon and walks with the platoon leader. So in game, he would move with the squads and has an M4.

don't know what to say ...
suggestion sounds good but how would change the gameplay

The biggest thing is REALISM - the current system is grossly unrealistic.
In terms of gameplay, it would allow for mortars/arty to be fired on an area you can't see. Also, the attacks would be more frequent. The lack of fire support in game is probably the most unrealistic part of Project Reality.

Before they absolutely creamed? If I use irons I HAVE to use binos, so i can find the guy with the scope shooting at me and fire back and pretend I have a scope so he thinks that hes in some form of danger


...mongol...

The other side wouldn't have binos either. Also, this would push in firefight engagements, which typically are at ~150meters, not this 500meter sniping currently in game.

[Rudd]

the changes to area attack in .9 were fantastic, but they can ofc go forward, smaller more common attacks would be good

especially for teh INS and Tali teams, since they operate on shoot and scoot tactics rather than static mortar batteries irl.

The perfect system imo is one wher you get to choose of

Mortars - 3 rounds per 30seconds or so, lasting 120 seconds, recharges in 15mins
Artillery, 6 Rounds per 15seconds or so, lasting 60 seconds, recharges in 30mins
JDAM, boom, recharges in 45 mins

so you'd use mortars for suppression, Artillery to destroy targets in the open, JDAM to destroy entrenched targets and vehicles

to avoid spam, you'd use one, then none can be used for the specific recharge time of the asset.

So if I dropped a JDAM, it would be 45 minutes before I could use mortars/arty/jdam, rather than using the JDAM then being able to use mortars 15mins later.

Regarding the GLTD, I understand where you're coming from, it might be a good idea to create a new officer class.

The 2 spawn officer kits would be Binoc equipped, but the requested officer kit would have a GLTD, only problem is that players might start abusing this and filling their squads with officer kits.

Though I did see a very cool video of a proof of concept for deployable tows using the mine drop and pickup code, maybe that could be applied to the heavier versions of laser designation, however it was a WIP, so might not be doable.

however people are right that officers have a good marker system now, maybe snipers should be the only ones with laser designators for gameplay reasons.

[theflidgeface]

this would be a great addition, but like someone else stated im not sure the Devs will agree.
But then again, you never know

[Hunt3r]

If we're going to have binocs instead of the GLTD we'll need to add the crosshairs back to them.

[mdterp1987]

The only people who should be carrying around binos is maybe the commander. The only person carrying a GLTD/VIPER/VECTOR 21 should be a forward observer.
The Devs should be for this, it's a reality mod

[Rudd]

The only people who should be carrying around binos is maybe the commander. The only person carrying a GLTD/VIPER/VECTOR 21 should be a forward observer.
The Devs should be for this, it's a reality mod

Project reality aims to give a realistic experience while preserving gameplay, so the question becomes where the balance is on this issue.

surely the officer class should still get binocs at least, remember we only have 32 players per team and we're trying to give teh impression of a larger force.

I'd certainly LOVE to see less binocs on the battlefield, e.g. scope rifleman really doesn't need them (always annoys me when I gotta say to my squad "get ur guns out, we haven't got a clue whats over this hill, the only guy who needs to be getting binos out is me" Possibly opening up more possibilities for equipment.

[hartbilt]

PR's fire support system needs to be refurbished in order to instill much needed realism into the process and execution of it.

Fire support is the use of indirect fires (mortars, artillery, CCA, CAS, JDAMS). There are two main parts: requesting and approving fire support and the delivery of these assets.

The GLTD system is unrealistic in today's military (my perspective is from current service with a U.S. Army light infantry company). Squad leaders do not carry these and why their in-game is questionable. Most calls for support will be with a grid coordinate. How this would relate to in-game is by requesting for it by placing a map marker wherever you wanted support.
The only use for the GLTD is for lasing targets. But the GLTD isn't even carried by 99.99% of soldiers. We use, at most, an LLDR which is a 50 pound system that is usually set up in defensive positions.

SOLUTION: Make a new limited kit, the forward observer. 2 max per team with M4, GLTD, and radio. Commanders and SL's lose their GLTD (they have binos! why do riflemen even have these?!). LLDR/equivalent is made a deployable asset for forward outposts.

Delivery of Fires
The problem here is that calls for support are limited to field of view. Make it so you place a request anywhere on the map and that's where you get fires. Afraid of back flags/ bases getting mortared? IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!! that's realism.
Second, assets are waaayyy too rare on the battlefield. Every single firefight I was in had mortars or artillery called in.

SOLUTION: SL's and forward observer kit can call for mortars/artillery/JDAM anywhere on the map by right clicking a request. Mortars are weakened to a 35meter kill zone for each round with 4 or 6 rounds fired. Available every 10 minutes. Artillery is given a 50meter kill zone with 8 rounds. Available every 20 minutes.

I think this is a great idea, I think if impleted correctly aspects of this could greatly improve and require joint squad operations and utilization of mumble. I elaborated a bit on OP suggestion.
per most US military action, responsibility for requesting of the fire support group is going to depend on which Branch (army,usmc,navy,usaf), i.e. if an engaged Army unit requires close air support provided by USAF aircraft then an embedded USAF CCT (usually 2 men) will coordinate the munition delivery, and an Army 13 foxtrot will direct arty.

Here's what I'm thinking
- 2 new limited kits only available to squad leader's request, 1.CCT/ kit equipped with GLTD (this would be Air coordinator) 2. Fire Support Specialist kit whose ability would be construction of LLDR, en lieu of a GLTD this kit would carry a GPS grid plotter. The LLDR would have the ability to direct munitions(extremely limited rounds) like M982 Excalibur, M712 Copperhead, or M395 Precision Guided Mortar Munition. The LLDR would be allowed to paint a target for air delivered fire support munition, but would have to be approved by SL w/ CCT kit or by UAV operator/commander. The GPS plotter would be used to send grid coordinates for conventional arty/mortars but only for line of sight targets, request for fire missions beyond line of sight would have to be sent from a LLDR bunker.

-Current Officer kits would lose the GLTD, in it's place would be GPS plotter or rifle mounted non optic laser designator, but preferably both. Regular officers would be able to send fire missions request to appropriate coordinator, laser designator would only provide target acquisition for aircraft pilots/RIO gunner.

I guess the sniper could keep GLTD