Combat Tomahawk

[Makarov]

After some discussion in the off topic forum on this subject, and some more research. I think that including a Tomahawk for certain US classes in game would not only be fun, but realistic as well.

Now I am not suggesting that every US soldier get one, they were usually bought by the soldiers themselves. But that doesn't mean that they didn't see action, and a good way to balance this out is to make it only available to one or two US classes in game in game.

Some links for further research
http://www.americantomahawk.com/media/av/mountaineer.pdf
Some U.S. Troops Choose Historic Tomahawk - ABC News


Advantages:
Greater range
Greater damage
Can be used to destroy weapons caches (etc.)

Disadvantages:
Since its not a agile as a knife it takes more time to swing
Only certain classes have access to it

[chagadiel]

I am sorry but i have never heard of tomahawks being used in vietnam ever. Sure maybe a few guys managed to take some out there late in the war but the military were and always will be a very rigid organisation. you couldnt just go out to vietnam with whatever you wanted.

as for being in the game i would guess that the developers are going like PR, on averages. the most common weapons issued to the infantry company will be the priority.

500,000 americans went to vietnam how many do you think took a tomahawk with them? you are better off asking for a machete which was issued to platoons for cutting through the brush.

[Rabbit]

I am sorry but i have never heard of tomahawks being used in vietnam ever. Sure maybe a few guys managed to take some out there late in the war but the military were and always will be a very rigid organisation. you couldnt just go out to vietnam with whatever you wanted.

as for being in the game i would guess that the developers are going like PR, on averages. the most common weapons issued to the infantry company will be the priority.

500,000 americans went to vietnam how many do you think took a tomahawk with them? you are better off asking for a machete which was issued to platoons for cutting through the brush.

It was actually fairly common, in 2001 the brought it back and had some members of the 101st test it, since then you have seen it come back to the battlefield in greater numbers.

[hades198]

im pretty sure the rangers use tomahawks (Vietnam tactical tomahawk)

[Rabbit]

im pretty sure the rangers use tomahawks (Vietnam tactical tomahawk)

They do, but newer models have started coming out.

[dtacs]

Were majority of US troops issued with Tomahawks over the M16'sM7 and M6?

If not, this shouldn't be in the game. I want to see what most troops were issued with just like in PR.

[chagadiel]

It was actually fairly common, in 2001 the brought it back and had some members of the 101st test it, since then you have seen it come back to the battlefield in greater numbers.

i have a look around i can find no good information refering to them or of them even being in vietnam let alone being common.

until i see some good evidence to verify this i am going with the thought that this is a re-writeing of history or exageration of one to sell the rather catchy "vietnam tactical tomahawk" by internet sellers.

i am not saying your wrong but i have not seen anything to say its true.

[gazzthompson]

i have a look around i can find no good information refering to them or of them even being in vietnam let alone being common.

until i see some good evidence to verify this i am going with the thought that this is a re-writeing of history or exageration of one to sell the rather catchy "vietnam tactical tomahawk" by internet sellers.

i am not saying your wrong but i have not seen anything to say its true.

10 seconds of googling:

Some U.S. Troops Choose Historic Tomahawk - ABC News

Sure you can find more with more extensive googlage.

Also:

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f11-of ... hawks.html

[chagadiel]

i already read that, but one paragraph in a news report which is misleading aint proof." up to 4000" isnt 4000 which is not common anyway compared to the 500,000 serviceman who went to vietnam.
it says to members of the armed forces in vietnam but did they get past the sp4 and allowed into the reguler army? how many where actualy infantrymen who brought them in the first place? It says nothing to me.

I am not contesting or talking about about now or in 2001 or 2003 just the fact that saying these tools where a common sight in vietnam is misleading.

In all the books i have read about the vietnam war by autobiographies of vets and respected historians and jounalists who where there, I have never heard of this tool being mentioned ever.

[Rabbit]

i already read that, but one paragraph in a news report which is misleading aint proof." up to 4000" isnt 4000 which is not common anyway compared to the 500,000 serviceman who went to vietnam.
it says to members of the armed forces in vietnam but did they get past the sp4 and allowed into the reguler army? how many where actualy infantrymen who brought them in the first place? It says nothing to me.

I am not contesting or talking about about now or in 2001 or 2003 just the fact that saying these tools where a common sight in vietnam is misleading.

In all the books i have read about the vietnam war by autobiographies of vets and respected historians and jounalists who where there, I have never heard of this tool being mentioned ever.

4000 by one company.... Look at ww2? How much did you hear about them there? Because they were there to. Pretty much what this all goes back to is soldiers preference.

[chagadiel]

4000 by one company.... Look at ww2? How much did you hear about them there? Because they were there to. Pretty much what this all goes back to is soldiers preference.

Presupposing that there was more than one tomahawk maker shipping them off to vietnam slips even further away from any fact and into speculation, guess work and fantacy. A few sweeping statements be it from a modern jornalist who are not the most reliable of researchers anymore or on a forum dont make it so.

I have never heard of the tomahawk in ww2 either but i have no in depth knowlegde on the subject other than the broad history, campaigns and dday which my late grandfather and i have talked alot about in great detail as he was there.

I tell you what you find me one photo or archive film with a tomahawk in vietnam or a reliable document or eyewitness testomony and i will stop being sceptical and eat humbel pie. it was the most flmed and photographed war ever so there must be something out there if they where so common. If you cant it would be safe to say putting one in a game like Project Reality Vietnam would be taking the reality out of the game.

[Rabbit]

The tomahawk was commonly carried by soldiers even prior to the Revolutionary War, but its use in modern times is not unprecedented.

According to Johnson, soldiers have used tomahawks in most of the major wars the United States has fought.

"In World War II, there were not only Native Americans using them, but also just your regular GI. A lot of these people were just carrying stuff from home, stuff that they used on the farm," Johnson said.

He added that an uncle who had served in the Korean War told him soldiers would take the standard hatchet that they were issued and grind the back down into a spike to make a "fighting hatchet."

World War II Marine veteran Peter LaGana was a pioneer in the modern military use of tomahawks. He created an updated tomahawk design and, from 1966 to 1970, sold about 4,000 of them to members of the armed forces serving in Vietnam before closing down his company.

from Some U.S. Troops Choose Historic Tomahawk - ABC News
The link on the first page... So what I don't get is how you can read that article and not read that big section. Also I have personal knowledge that troops brought them from home and tried to get there hands on them, also picking them up off dead Vietnamese.

But apparently personal knowledge doesn't mean anything here.

[chagadiel]

The tomahawk was commonly carried by soldiers even prior to the Revolutionary War, but its use in modern times is not unprecedented.

According to Johnson, soldiers have used tomahawks in most of the major wars the United States has fought.

"In World War II, there were not only Native Americans using them, but also just your regular GI. A lot of these people were just carrying stuff from home, stuff that they used on the farm," Johnson said.

He added that an uncle who had served in the Korean War told him soldiers would take the standard hatchet that they were issued and grind the back down into a spike to make a "fighting hatchet."

World War II Marine veteran Peter LaGana was a pioneer in the modern military use of tomahawks. He created an updated tomahawk design and, from 1966 to 1970, sold about 4,000 of them to members of the armed forces serving in Vietnam before closing down his company.

from Some U.S. Troops Choose Historic Tomahawk - ABC News
The link on the first page... So what I don't get is how you can read that article and not read that big section. Also I have personal knowledge that troops brought them from home and tried to get there hands on them, also picking them up off dead Vietnamese.

But apparently personal knowledge doesn't mean anything here.

So the vietnamese had tomahawks aswell now did they?

Firstly i am reffering to the vietnam war specificaly and have already said that the articles one paragraph on the vietnam war offers no real evidence or specifics. It is not evidence to the fact that combat troops carried tomahawks into the field. Journalists today are very lazy and are just as likely to get their information of the internet like us.

One lone article does not make it history or fact. I am afraid i need something abit more concrete other than that article.

I am afraid the personal knowledge part is the curse of the internet. millions of peaple claim to be things they are not. The amount of peaple who have claimed they are or were snipers on the net is atronomical. So without seeing you or knowing you i wouldnt be able to judge wether you are telling the truth or just saying stuff to back up an argument. would you trust a statement on a forum or take it with a pinch of salt ?

I am tooo old in the tooth to take peoples word on the net i am sorry.

[Rabbit]

So the vietnamese had tomahawks aswell now did they?

Firstly i am reffering to the vietnam war specificaly and have already said that the articles one paragraph on the vietnam war offers no real evidence or specifics. It is not evidence to the fact that combat troops carried tomahawks into the field. Journalists today are very lazy and are just as likely to get their information of the internet like us.

One lone article does not make it history or fact. I am afraid i need something abit more concrete other than that article.

I am afraid the personal knowledge part is the curse of the internet. millions of peaple claim to be things they are not. The amount of peaple who have claimed they are or were snipers on the net is atronomical. So without seeing you or knowing you i wouldnt be able to judge wether you are telling the truth or just saying stuff to back up an argument. would you trust a statement on a forum or take it with a pinch of salt ?

I am tooo old in the tooth to take peoples word on the net i am sorry.

Well for the military, you can find that out, and as for how I know, Ive worked a lot with the asymmetric warfare group. The group told me about the history of tomahawks throughout US history among other things. And I'm not special for working with them, they work with MANY U.S. military.

[anglomanii]

here is a nice piece on military hawks, i reckon if it gets the job done it gets the job done.

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscou ... roundup-2/

[chagadiel]

Well for the military, you can find that out, and as for how I know, Ive worked a lot with the asymmetric warfare group. The group told me about the history of tomahawks throughout US history among other things. And I'm not special for working with them, they work with MANY U.S. military.

you still have not answered any of my questions on verifiable proof or the statement that the vietnamese had tomahawks aswell. It is not me claiming the common use of the tomahawk in vietnam so there is no need for me to do the research. its like an evalutionist being asked to prove god doesnt exist.

Now i could be a well read 38 year old who has reading history books on the vietnam war for 25 years or i could be a 16 year old nerd who is so insecure i have to sound like a no it all. In the end there is no way to tell who i am or what i say is good or bad knowlegde. once again your word much as i am sure you are telling the truth cannot be given as evidence on a forum.

now contrary to the first statement i have been asking on the forum i belong to, if any one has heard anything as far as tomahawks in Nam. I had two replies one said no but probably hatchets and axes for tools.
The other replied that he had read somewhere that special forces had used them but couldnt say were.

i will post on here if anyone answers anything concrete on the other forum. As for me you have not convinced me other than that at the most they where very rare.

[chagadiel]

As an exstension to the question i asked on another forum one of the guys responded with the quate below. the writer is a very reliable with information and has written several vietnam wargames.

"I know for sure that ONE SOG man carried a real honest-to-god tomahawk that had been in his family. I know of a LRRP that carried a more modern version, called a "huntsman's hatchet", that had a long handle, thin blade like a tomahawk, and a bladed backspike.

I don't think that even if 4,000 were sent over there is enough evidence or communality of usage in close combat to warrant putting it into the mod. That'd be like making the main SMG a silenced MAC-10 because a dozen were sent over (which probably saw more combat that any tomahawk!), which doesn't make much sense."