Incendiary capabilities

[Redamare]

While playing a game recently my team was trying to get rid of a mine without running over it and destroying our transport. i tried throwing a Thermite granade onto it and it didnt do anything. We were thininking of why it didnt work . . basicaly because IN BF2 Mines only blow up when vehicles drive overtop of it.

my suggestion is What if Incindiarys acted in more than one way . .

1 Cause damage to vehicles / doors
2 Burn in a small 2 meter radius damaging objects around it
3 Anti material capability

Right now the incindary only hurts of you are standing nexto it for a second but after which you can walk right through the flame.

Give the Incindary a damage radius of 2 meters or so for a longer duration to destroy vehicles if incindiary rolls off the top and stop enemys from passing through doorways/small halls and allys for a few seconds. (Like in Americas Army)

If it is possible Give the incindiary an invisible spawn vehicle / Invisible object that will move from 1 meter down to the surface of the ground triggering an Enemy mine ( unless the mine detination code requires a Manned Vehicle Drive over it. )

If you are confused by what i am trying to suggest make it clear what you are confused about and i will try to explain as best i can.

[Reddeath]

If Incendiaries did damage over time it would, unless they adjust damage values, be able to destroy a cache with just one incendiary, if they adjust damage values its going to take a longer time to destroy a cache that if well defended is difficult enough. They DO cause damage to vehicles and doors, vehicles is unintentional though and will probably be fixed at some point. Anti Material I am a little confused by that, it destroys crates, I guess it goes back to your suggestion to make it destroy mines. Mines are absolutely fine, they are very visible which makes them underpowered IMO, about 95% of the kits have incendiaries, in reality not everyone can clear a mine, mines are more of an area denial weapon and currently they do so just fine with how visible they are, sadly it doesn't prevent a mass of team kills.

[illidur]

lol not really thought through. if you tried to drop an incindiary that spawned a vehicle.... im sure that would cause problems.

[AnimalMother.]

While playing a game recently my team was trying to get rid of a mine without running over it and destroying our transport.

combat engineer > wrench


as for the rest of the suggestion, well the incendary is fine - once it's AT abilities get the correct nerf.

[ZephyrDark]

As for the suggestion, thats what a wrench is for. Maybe if C4 was replaced with some other material or different style and have C4 be able to clear a group of mines, but not incendiarys.

Yeah as animal said.

An incendiary grenade going of next to or near a tank should do nothing. Maybe since they are thermite iirc, it being directly on top of a tank or other armoured vehicle it might do damage, but all it would do is melt a hole in it at most..

[Dev1200]

Can incendiaries safely destroy a mine though? :S

Btw, they already can open doors. If you're thinking about making it similar to the molotov with the long burning effect, then this can be very bad. You would be able to burn right through tanks with it =\

^^

*EDIT* This is me talking about ingame. Incendiaries can destroy tanks.

[Ninja2dan]

You could use a thermite grenade, such as the US M14 (TH-3), to destroy a mine. The problem is that there is a very high chance that the thermite material is going to cause detonation of the explosives, instead of simply disabling the mine.

Most anti-armor land mines use a high explosive filler, initiated by a booster charge, to cause severe concussive damage to the vehicle from underneath. This is achieved by using standard HE materials such as Comp B. Very few AT mines use a powder-based or "low-velocity" primary explosive.

In order to disable such a mine, you would need to destroy the firing mechanism or cause sufficient damage to the mechanism (fuze) to prohibit it from initiating the booster charge. So how would you disable the fuze mechanism via thermite without the thermite burning down into the booster charge? Once that thermite reaches the booster it will ignite, causing detonation of the main charge. Bare in mind that the thermite itself will probably not initiate the primary filler.

You are better off just firing a large-caliber projectile at the mine in an attempt to either destroy or disable the firing mechanism. While there is still a great chance that it will detonate the mine, the lack of burning material means there is a smaller chance of detonating the booster alone. A lucky shot that destroys the initiation mechanism before it can fire the booster means you will have a "disabled" mine.

If the mine is buried though, the thermite material is probably not going to do anything. The thermite is not going to burn through the soil, it's just going to settle on top of it and continue to burn. If you drop thermite onto sand, it might burn/melt/fuse down about an inch or so (probably less) before it settles, but I doubt it would be deep enough to actually damage those types of mines that are buried into the ground.


In regards to the effects a thermite grenade would have against an armored vehicle, that really depends on which vehicle and where the thermite burns. The M14 for example can burn through about 1/2 inch (just under 13mm) of steel plate. Most APC's have about half that on their top armor, and an MBT will have substantially more.

In theory, if you let a thetmite grenade burn fully from the top of an APC hull, it might burn a hole clean through. But you also have to remember that the interior is often lined with anti-spall liners, wiring, crew seats, components, panels, etc that will further slow the thermite material. Chances of a thermite grenade burning fully through the top deck of an APC and actually causing internal damage or crew injury is very unlikely, though marginally possible.


Generally, what the general public assumes of thermite is brought on by the movies and rumor/urban legend. They won't burn a hole into the earth's crust or drop through armor plate like a hot knife through soft butter.

[richyrich55]

Can't you put a time delay on canister grenades like that? Give it like 10 or 15 seconds delay so you can get back in your vehicle and drive off. Or is it possible to detonate them via .50?

[Ninja2dan]

Can't you put a time delay on canister grenades like that? Give it like 10 or 15 seconds delay so you can get back in your vehicle and drive off. Or is it possible to detonate them via .50?

I'm confused at both of your questions, you'll need to explain them better.

1) Thermite hand grenades already have a short fuze of 1-3 seconds (usually taking 2-4 seconds for the thermite to initiate). For what purpose would you be needing a delay of 10-15 seconds? Are you talking about a crewman climbing out of his vehicle, somehow placing the thermite over/near the AT mines, initiating the delay fuze, running off, climbing back into his vehicle, and waiting for the thermite to maybe destroy/disable the mines?


2) Are you asking about detonating an AT mine with the .50 BMG, or the thermite grenade?

As mentioned above, and in many other topics, it is possible to detonate mines/explosives with a heavy-caliber projectile under certain circumstances. But in order to detonate a thermite grenade such as the M14, it would take a skilled shot. Basically, you would need to ignite the initiation filler (starter mix) with a well-placed tracer/incendiary round. That means firing the round into the top 2 inches or so of the grenade body.



But I still fail to see the purpose for doing either one.

[ytman]

I'd just rather see a modiefied CE:

1st: Mining operations (2 mines instead of 1/no C4)
2nd: C4/detonating materials to destroy mines/ieds/caches. (2/ no mines)

[Arnoldio]

Form mine removal you have CE.

As said, thermite grenades should be having no effect on armour, thicker than BRDM/M113. So whatever can be destroyed with 50 cal can be destroyed with thermite and rest is a no.

It might not be realistic or accurate, but its awfully retarded then an APC appears near to the squad, insted of squad running away, everybody is running towards the APC trying to get as many thermites on it. No logic since you should be afraid of it, unles given appropriate weapon.

[chrisweb89]

Ninja I assume your 2-4 second time for the thermite to ignite is a reallife value, but in PR atm, the inc damage can actually be given out before even the animation starts. And in that time before the animation if lucky it can make a full health tank black smoke, sometimes even when 15m away or on a moving vehicle because of how glitchy inc are against armoured vehicles.

[SGT.Ice]

If a thermite can destroy a blackhawk and is used to destroy weapons and or unsalvageable vehicles. I see no reason why it should not be able to destroy a vehicle. Especially once with gas in it.

[dtacs]

If a thermite can destroy a blackhawk and is used to destroy weapons and or unsalvageable vehicles. I see no reason why it should not be able to destroy a vehicle.

Because although realistic, its idiotic to have a massive tank taken down by a single rifleman. Imagine what it would be like on Gaza Beach when the Hamas pick up an IDF kit, or on any other armor map for that matter.

[chrisweb89]

And the inc would have to stay on the vehicle for longer than a second which is what it is ingame now, even then like ninja said all its doing is burning somearoumd. It not gaurenteed to do a lot of damage which is what they do now sometimes becuse they are so glitchy.

[Ninja2dan]

For the M14 Hand Grenade, the 2-4 seconds I mentioned is how long it takes from the moment the striker initiates the primer to the time the starter mixture begins combustion of the thermite filler. From that moment, the average grenade will have a maximum burn time of 30-45 seconds.

The data that states the M14 is capable of burning through .5" of steel plate is considering that the thermite is on a flat and stable surface, is initiated while stationary, and is allowed to burn for the duration.

But not all thermite is created equal, so to speak.

When the thermite filler ignites and begins letting off chunks of burning material, each of those chunks is not of equal size. Therefore each individual cluster of thermite is going to have a varied burn capability and burn duration. One fragment might be capable of burning through .75" while another cluster from the same grenade might only burn through .15" of the same material.


Now consider that when you toss a thermite grenade at a vehicle, there is a good chance that the grenade will "detonate" prior to contacting the surface of what you are attempting to attack with it. The grenade will also probably bounce or even roll off the surface, meaning there is a chance that you might not even get any good enough clusters to burn through that surface. While one grenade might permit multiple holes to be burned through the deck of an APC, another grenade might only cause minor "pitting" or surface damage.

In reality, thermite grenades are best used when placed directly on/in or very near the object you wish to destroy/damage. Most often they are used to disable or destroy armament and equipment such as heavy weapons, vehicles, generators, etc. You probably won't have catastrophic destruction but that's not the point, what you need to do is simply melt/fuse the materials together to the point at which it renders the item unrepairable or unusable.


Sure, it's possible that throwing a thermite grenade at an armored vehicle might disable it, but the chances are very slim. Personally, I wouldn't want to risk exposing myself to such a vehicle when you consider it's probably just as effective to fire at it from a distance with small-arms in hopes of taking out critical exterior components. As a last-ditch effort it might have purpose, but generally it's not advised.

It will be quite difficult to code the thermite grenades in PR to function in a realistic manner, just like it's difficult to properly code napalm or molotov cocktails. I'm sure that once the team is able to come up with a good solution, the thermites will be modified to function more accurately. But until then, I personally have no suggestions on how to improve them.

[richyrich55]

I completely forgot about this thread, sorry.

Ninja2dan;1532127']I'm confused at both of your questions, you'll need to explain them better.

I meant if the mine is going to explode (if that's even possible in PR via thermite), the time delay would allow you to get back in the saftey of your tank/apc/whatever.

2) Are you asking about detonating an AT mine with the .50 BMG, or the thermite grenade?

Detonating it with the 50.

Elsewise, give the crewman some other means of removing a mine. It's stupid how we have to find alternate routes because you can't disable/remove a mine that's blocking your path. Or even have the main gun for the tanks/apc's be able to destroy it.

[Stealthgato]

I once got taken out in a Leopard on Silent Eagle with a single thermite grenade. Also, what would happen if you were to shove a thermite grenade down a tanks barrel?

[Stoickk]

To diverge slightly from the topic and address the issue of clearing mines with gunfire, here are my thoughts on that subject:

The problem that I see with allowing mines to be cleared by .50 caliber fire or tank main gun rounds is that tanks and APC's will first off no longer need Combat Engineer support, and Insurgent teams in particular will lose the ability for area denial via anti-vehicular mines. One hallmark of PR gameplay is the requirement that teams of players function together to achieve a goal. Mines exist in game to give infantry without armor support, especially insurgent factions, a tool to slow the advance, and destroy slacking crews, of enemy vehicles, in particular, hard targets such as APC's, IFV's, and Armor. Vehicle crews currently need CE support to clear a minefield. This is as it should be and needs no adjustment.

The current mine system has two flaws as I see it. Mine teamkills are being dealt with in another thread in the suggestions forum, so I will not dig into that topic here. The only other problem with mines as I see it, is the fact that a few factions do not have any mine clearing capability other than suicide, namely Militia, Taliban, and Insurgents. All three of those factions can emplace mines, but none of the three can clear a mine, friendly or enemy. Combat Engineer, Arty Engineer, and Arty IED kits should all have wrenches, in my opinion. All factions can emplace mines, there is no reason why skilled demolitions experts from each faction should not be able to recover them.

/Off Topic

On the primary topic of incendiary capabilities, leave them as they are. Incendiary grenades should be able to damage vehicles. There are times that vehicles are found abandoned in the field and incendiary grenades are logical choices to destroy abandoned equipment. It is understood that in a real world situation, the grenade would have been placed on a fuel tank, dropped down a turret, placed in the breech of the main gun system of a tank, or another vital location to render the equipment inoperable. Properly placed, these grenades can disable/destroy vehicles. As was stated earlier, not necessarily a catastrophic destruction, but in terms of combat effectiveness, destruction nonetheless. We can not do this within the current limitations of the engine, either in terms of placement of the grenade, or damage modeling, so leaving the grenades as capable of vehicle damage, and destroying the vehicle when it is burned, is the next logical step. Personally, I think the dev's got this one right.

The bottom line is if your vehicle is regularly getting swarmed and nuked by infantry squads with incendiary grenades, somebody is doing something wrong. I'm not the guy to preach on the forums about how you "should play the game." That being said, if you are consistently in situations where full squads of infantry are inside 25 meters range with enough cover to effectively engage your armor asset with incendiary grenades, either you and your vehicle crew or your teammates are failing. Period.

As for the suggested damage over time effect, here is an idea for implementation if the dev's are interested in pursuing it. If not, again, no big deal. I do not see this as a major problem. What about the possibility of splitting the damage into several separate small "explosions" going off approximately a half second apart for the same total damage. The net result to stationary targets would be the same. Say for example, instead of one blast for 100 points of damage (pulling a number out of thin air for the sake of illustration, I don't know what the blast value is for an incendiary grenade) when the grenade initially triggers, the grenade explodes once for 10 points of damage every half second for the next five seconds after it goes off. This simulates the burn effect if someone stands in the fire, will continue to damage stationary targets such as a cache or an unmanned vehicle, but would cut down the hurt on the initial blast when thrown at a manned vehicle, as long as they have enough sense to move out of the fire. This should reduce the usage of incendiary grenades as an offensive antiarmor weapon, as that is not the intended usage, but should not hurt cache takedowns, as caches can not run out of the blast.

[mangeface]

So, incendiaries will no longer be able to destroy armor. Shit, how else can you put infantry at a disadvantage against the thermal equipped APCs and tanks? I understand the reasoning, I read and completely agree. If you take away that ability for infantry to take out armor, how are you going to give back to them? There's only 2 LATs on the playing field at once, and LATs have little if any effect against armor except be a nuisance. Maybe up the power of them to do someting other than make them wonder where the speed bump is they just hit?