Civilian/Collaborator ROE changes

[Celestial1]

(Just gonna put down the info, judge it as you see fit)

Situations in which arrest is not applicable (INTEL SUBTRACTED, PENALTY GIVEN):

• Civilians are not allowed to be 'arrested' if unarmed.
• Civilians are not allowed to be 'arrested' if using medical supplies (on themselves or other collaborators) away from terrorists.

Situations in which only arrest is applicable (EXTRA INTEL REWARDED, NO PENALTY):

• Civilians throwing rocks are allowed to be arrested to intent to harm the coalition troops (have thrown one within the last 10 seconds).
• Civilians using the Epipen anywhere may be arrested, or arrested by use of shotgun.(to prevent reviving of terrorists).

Situation in which harming or arresting a civilian is applicable (EXTRA INTEL REWARDED ONLY IF ARRESTED, NO PENALTY):

• Civilians within 10-15m of Terrorists (or within 30 seconds after leaving that area) may be shot due to the intent to assist the terrorists.

For the final category (harm and arrest is applicable) the extra intel will be rewarded only if the civilian is arrested. If the civilian is killed, there is no extra intel gain but there is no penalty, either.
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Basic respawn time of Civilian is 15 seconds. If killed or arrested outside of the ROE, they keep this spawntime. If killed within the ROE, their spawn becomes 60 seconds. If arrested (cuffed or by shotgun) within the ROE, their spawn becomes 1 minute and 15 seconds.

The faster respawn time of civilians will encourage acting along the rules that keeps them from being arrested/killed within ROE, and make it less discouraging to be a civi when they are outright killed by the other team. It will also act as a representation of the large amounts of civilians that CAN be present (without needing everyone on the insurgent team to actually be civis).

Civilians would be limited to 2 per squad, 1 per squad, or an amount per team (5? 10?).

With Civilians not being arrested outside of the ROE, they can perform more of a reconaissance role for terrorists without being chased indefinitely. A civilian can incite ROE by throwing rocks or punching to bait troops into following them.
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The binoculars are a bit of a hard subject to address... you couldn't be arrested for simply holding binoculars in real life, so perhaps...

• Arrestable if using binoculars within 30m of terrorist (especially within 30m of a terrorist with marksman/sniper kit)
• Arrestable if using binoculars for more than x amount of time

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New Civilian abilities

(1) Unarmed punching. Like rocks, but only closer up and a last ditch attempt to save themselves. Preferably should do an extremely low amount of damage, maybe less than 10, just to give the 'hurt' effect. Would fall under the ROE the same as using the rocks. Perhaps could be an actual slot that makes the civi look ready to 'fight' (fists up) so that a civilian threatening a coalition soldier can be arrested if holding up their fists or actually punching.

(2) 'Look for Weapon' slot? A bit less feasible... but, this idea would kind of keep coalition soldiers on their toes when it came to civilians. If they use this slot, one of two things would happen. One, they draw an AK with long time before they can actually use the weapon. It would represent them looking around for a weapon from the area around them.

Two, the more desirable option if it can be coded, is for a kit to spawn within a short distance (10m? 20m?) of the civilian, with an AK with just 2 or 3 magazines (for defense, he can always get some more from a cache), binoculars, and his medical equipment. Something about the kit should clearly identify him as a threat to the coalition (AK on his back etc) so that he can still be healing a terrorist but it can be known that he is an acceptable target.

This second option would allow civilians to 'find a weapon' and become an insurgent in the heat of battle, but he will keep his medical equipment and his binoculars, but he will no longer be unarmed and he could be killed just like any other terrorist without any ROE conflictions. Preferably, this kit shouldn't be able to be picked up by others.
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Civilians cannot pick up friendly or enemy kits (only the 'picked up weapon' kit, if possible), but could still be in vehicles and mounted weapons (which would mark them as being able to be harmed within the ROE for 60 seconds after dismounting).
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Penalties for Ground troops/Vehicle-borne troops:

• A single civilian killed outside of the ROE by a coalition soldier using a rifle, sniper rifle, .50 cal, or AP/Coaxial rounds or any direct, deliberate firing will add 30 seconds of spawn time to the soldier. The team will lose intel.
• A second civilian killed outside of the ROE by a coalition soldier will add 60 seconds of spawn time, and court martial the soldier. The team will lose intel.
• A civilian that has picked up a weapon can be killed without penalty.
• A civilian arrested outside of the ROE will provide no intel, and the soldier will be penalized 15-30 seconds of spawn for doing so.
• A civilian arrested/killed outside of the ROE that has identified itself with it's hands up causes the soldier to recieve an ADDITIONAL 15-30 seconds of spawntime for the violator, and/or an immediate court martialing. The hands must be fully up for 1 second before this kicks in, to avoid a coalition soldier shooting by mistake and then the civilian immediately popping his hands up to get the soldier penalized further.

Civilians killed outside of the ROE by air assets will cause the pilot to recieve 15 seconds of added spawntime each time it is done. The pilot will not be court martialed for the kills, to avoid losing air assets. Alternatively, the pilot could be court martialed after multiple violations within 10 or 20 minutes, and/or the team can be given 5 tickets (more or less) to help lessen the burden caused by someone's lack of teamplay.

A civilian killed by HEAT/Grenades/Any indirect means will show a message to the player that he has killed the civilian, but will not penalize the player for this. This message will not be shown if it was still done inside the ROE.

[Spec]

It reads kinda like 0.6 - very low spawn time for the civilian when he is killed means they'll more often try to make temselves a target. (They can even trigger the penalty when acting as human shield with your rules, and believe me, they'll do it all the time). Though I guess that'd still be better than it is right now...

Also, there are many threads for this... Maybe we should collect ideas like this in a thread in which no comments are allowed and have a seperate discussion thread; better than 5 threads within a week or so I guess. Maybe a mod might consider that, before all the threads get locked and the ideas forgotten.

[Celestial1]

Situations in which arrest is applicable (INTEL REWARDED, NO PENALTY):

• Civilians within 10m of Terrorists are allowed to be arrested, but not shot, as long as they are unarmed. This lasts for 30 seconds after the Civilian has left the area of the terrorist.

Situation in which harming a civilian is applicable (NO INTEL REWARDED, NO PENALTY):

• Civilians within 10m of Terrorists (or within 30 seconds after leaving that area) with any medic device, rocks, or anything used to assist the Terrorist may be arrested with the shotgun, due to the intent to assist the terrorists.

Well, darn I suppose they can.

Post has been editted, see the 'Situation where harming or arresting a civilian is applicable' section and the sidenote beneath it; civilians within distance of terrorists now can be shot regardless of what weaponry they are using.

[wookimonsta]

i like the idea, that you cannot arrest a civilian just anywhere on the map.
maybe if they were withing 150 meters of the cache you could arrest them.

what you still don't address is the human shield factor that low spawn times always cause. you would really need to change it so a civilian hanging out with insurgents is a potential target.

[Spec]

He just did:

Civilians within 10-15m of Terrorists (or within 30 seconds after leaving that area) may be shot due to the intent to assist the terrorists.

The question is, though: Is it possible to code it like that? I really hope so, making the ROE depend on the distance to enemies might change the suicidal behaviour.

[Celestial1]

The question is, though: Is it possible to code it like that? I really hope so, making the ROE depend on the distance to enemies might change the suicidal behaviour.

I would hope so, too. Otherwise there is no really feasible way that civilians could be fully useful for everyone.

I mean, if the other changes occurred except this and the spawntime were to stay the same, I would suppose it would be doable, considering that penalties for shooting would be extremely high and they couldn't just be arrested for nothing.



I think that being able to be arrested around the caches is a little gamey, though... I mean, if you were a cop in America and you saw a guy walking down the sidewalk past a crackhouse, would you arrest him for doing nothing? I mean, yeah, it'd be an easy way to get intel but I don't think civilians should have to be AFRAID of going to caches, especially if it is a set up for an insurgent ambush (you don't want your bait being hosed just because he got within the cache radius, do you?)

Besides this, there is no way that you can tell when entering a cache-location without having scouted it heavily previously to tell whether the civi is in the radius; The marker for BluFor is 'within' 150m of the cache, right? Well, you know where the marker is but not the cache, so let's say the marker is 125m East of the Cache. Well, a civilian is just 30m West of the marker... He's 'near' the cache, but he can't be arrested and will cause the BluFor to get a penalty for what they were supposed to do!

[badmojo420]

They should still be allowed to pick up a fellow insurgents or coalitions weapon and then be considered an armed combatant.

And maybe instead of spawning a kit out of nowhere, you could request a kit or two from the caches. Tho, i don't know if that would be doable without letting all insurgents request kits.

[Celestial1]

They should still be allowed to pick up a fellow insurgents or coalitions weapon and then be considered an armed combatant.

And maybe instead of spawning a kit out of nowhere, you could request a kit or two from the caches. Tho, i don't know if that would be doable without letting all insurgents request kits.

Well the point of it is to kind of encourage the players who are occupying a civilian slot on their team (just like a medic limited kit in a squad) to stay as the 'medic' of the team instead of yet another lonewolfing sonufagun.

With a weapon, they will be able to defend themselves but still heal, making the ability to become a 'combat medic' more applicable.

And I think that if it were forced to only be from a cache, then the civilian could not take up that last ditch attempt to get away when he runs around the corner and scavenges for a weapon, then turns and fires at the BluFor chasing him, or can't stay low behind cover and then pop up with the weapon when the BluFor gets close enough for him to attack.

It would really require BluFor to keep on their feet when engaging civilians, because the least expected could happen... whether that be the civilian's PKM gunner friend, or the civilian himself.

[badmojo420]

I wish they would give medic to one of the AK insurgents. And leave the collaborator/civilian class for recon/ambush stuff. On top of a lot of other changes.

The only thing i don't like about spawning the gun, is people would do it while being approached, so the tendency on the coalition side would be to wait for them to pick up the gun then kill them. Rather than arresting. And on the civie side, you wouldn't run away as much, because you would always have a way of getting a gun.

But that is an interesting idea about having them spawn a kit. Maybe it could be possible to have them carry a kit as an item. So they would pull it out like the ammo bag, and throw it down. Maybe add a really long draw time to the kit, so you couldn't just pop out a rifle in seconds.

[Celestial1]

I wish they would give medic to one of the AK insurgents. And leave the collaborator/civilian class for recon/ambush stuff. On top of a lot of other changes.

The only thing i don't like about spawning the gun, is people would do it while being approached, so the tendency on the coalition side would be to wait for them to pick up the gun then kill them. Rather than arresting. And on the civie side, you wouldn't run away as much, because you would always have a way of getting a gun.

But that is an interesting idea about having them spawn a kit. Maybe it could be possible to have them carry a kit as an item. So they would pull it out like the ammo bag, and throw it down. Maybe add a really long draw time to the kit, so you couldn't just pop out a rifle in seconds.

The point isn't for the gun to be spawned directly underneath them, though (take a look at the section that actually mentions this, I have both a method similar to the one you have described and the one below)

It's meant to spawn within 10 or 20 meters. The gun could spawn out of reach (like the gun was dropped earlier there, it's just now 'noticed' by the civi) and require a bit of courage for the civi to run out for it, it could spawn close by, or it could spawn farther back but in cover.

It would make it possible to 'find' a gun, but make it a little randomized as to whether it will be easily reached or not, and would require the civi to choose whether it is worth going for. Going around the corner, he could start the 'look for kit' routine, and the kit would spawn within 10-20 meters of him. If he got lucky, it could be very close when he goes around the corner. If he got the short-end of the stick, it could be a bit too far out to grab and the BluFor can come around the corner and catch him red-handed grabbing the weapon.

This would make it a better strategy to always have your weapon out as BluFor, instead of your plasti-cuffs, because that civilian may have just become a full-fledged threat.

[Celestial1]

Apologies for the double post.

Update:
Civilians would not allowed to be shot when using rocks or punching, but they can still be arrested (by shotgun or cuffs)

This allows baiting of BluFor by throwing rocks or rushing up and punching them, but the civilian will have to be quick on his toes to make sure he doesn't get caught when throwing the rock or punching, and doesn't get hit by the non-lethal shotgun running away to the ambush area.