[Weapon/Gameplay] Weapon Jamming

[Chuc]

No. No triggers for animation on overheat exist as far as I know.

[BroCop]

how about going the way STALKER does...they dont have any unjam animations either but instead you have to reload your weapon as a way of unjamming. Basically making the damn bugger unable to cool off unless the weapon is reloaded (to simulate unjamming)

[HangMan_]

how about going the way STALKER does...they dont have any unjam animations either but instead you have to reload your weapon as a way of unjamming. Basically making the damn bugger unable to cool off unless the weapon is reloaded (to simulate unjamming)

Well mate that is the plan at the moment. People aren't going to support the decision though it will mean potentially a lot of wasted ammo. Oh well some of the best features of PR where heavily critisized by the community (over running rallys)

So at the moment you have to reload to clear the jam.

Oh and just incase people ask im fairly certain there is no way to reload and not waste a mag so please don't suggest it

HangMan

[AquaticPenguin]

Have you discovered if there's a way of randomising the jamming? or will it have to be similar to an overheat? It'll would be a nice addition either way. And it's also great you're taking the initiative and trying it yourself.

It's seems like the more we think something is hardcoded, the more people prove us wrong ^_^ *insert fastrop3s comment*

[Hunt3r]

Well we'll just say that the weapon jams simulated by this little mod is the type that isn't where you just slap the mag and rack the charging handle to fix.

It's the kind of jam that requires you to drop the mag, lock the bolt back, and spent time trying to fix.

[BroCop]

Ok assuming that the Taliban, Insurgents and Chechens
HangMan

Btw i know this is more of a going back statement but Chechens actually did and still do maintain their weapons...

[Brummy]

25 Shots on full auto is a jam..?

Then you have to reload.

An AK mag is 30...

This just makes your mag a bit smaller, doesn't really add anything to gameplay at all.

[HangMan_]

Have you discovered if there's a way of randomising the jamming? or will it have to be similar to an overheat? It'll would be a nice addition either way. And it's also great you're taking the initiative and trying it yourself.

It's seems like the more we think something is hardcoded, the more people prove us wrong ^_^ *insert fastrop3s comment*

So far i havent found a way to randomize it I'm not too familiar with coding but i'm looking into having 3 possible heat values that the computer chooses one of to assign to the heat for that shot. This is still extremely WIP though.

Btw i know this is more of a going back statement but Chechens actually did and still do maintain their weapons...

Proof?? I'm sorry but its staying as it is. I think it is highly unlikely that the chechens can keep their weapons as clean as the russians potentially can. Reason is that the Russians are an actual army and they have armories etc to check their weapons into. To date i am not aware that chechens regularly have access to similar facilities.. If u have actual proof showing otherwise then please show me

25 Shots on full auto is a jam..?

Then you have to reload.

An AK mag is 30...

This just makes your mag a bit smaller, doesn't really add anything to gameplay at all.

Yes i am aware of this... Weapon jamming will help to prevent noobs from succeeding in CQB lol

[gazzthompson]

not being able to fire 25 rounds in full auto with AK is unrealistic and bad for gameplay, whats the point?

[Adriaan]

Yeah, can't it be a random value so that it doesn't jam at the same amount of bullets on full auto everytime?

[Dizakui]

Well, its not always going to take the same amount of time. If you hold the trigger down for 15+ shots just after reloading then yes, it will be all the time. But if you say, fire 4 rounds, wait a while, and then shoot. You might be able to fire 24 rounds, or more or less, depends how slowly the overheat thing goes down.
And theres always the whole thing with the number or rounds where is has to be tested and checked, if he puts it to more than the magazine then it's no use because the reload resets it, unless he made it so the reload diddn't but you could fire many more rounds.

Or atleast thats the idea I've got from it. And I will say I like the idea of jams, but I'm not too sure on the number of shots fired. But I'll see what it's like in a fight rather than a 'just firing to test it all' situation before putting anything saying it should be more shots.

edit: Mis-read what was said, sorry. And from the sound of it yeah, it will always be the same amount of bullets fired in full-auto that jams the gun.

[AquaticPenguin]

Something you could do is make the jamming happen after 31 shots full auto, then the time the person would take to reload, and reacquire their target would add some 'random' to the mechanic. Properly balanced this could work quite well even without randomness.

Edit: Also I think it might occur a bit too often with those kinds of numbers. Make it take quite a while to build up ie. something like 45 for aks, maybe in the 60s for conventional armys. Jams aren't that frequent and in the time it takes for a jam to develop the player won't always be firing full auto which may help it feel less random.

[arjan]

why not 1 and a half mag full auto? sounds reasonable?

[HangMan_]

Well, its not always going to take the same amount of time. If you hold the trigger down for 15+ shots just after reloading then yes, it will be all the time. But if you say, fire 4 rounds, wait a while, and then shoot. You might be able to fire 24 rounds, or more or less, depends how slowly the overheat thing goes down.
And theres always the whole thing with the number or rounds where is has to be tested and checked, if he puts it to more than the magazine then it's no use because the reload resets it, unless he made it so the reload diddn't but you could fire many more rounds.

Or atleast thats the idea I've got from it. And I will say I like the idea of jams, but I'm not too sure on the number of shots fired. But I'll see what it's like in a fight rather than a 'just firing to test it all' situation before putting anything saying it should be more shots.

edit: Mis-read what was said, sorry. And from the sound of it yeah, it will always be the same amount of bullets fired in full-auto that jams the gun.

This is more or less right what u said at the start. Because people don't fire on full auto always it will work out that the gun appears to jam randomly when it actually isn't...

Something you could do is make the jamming happen after 31 shots full auto, then the time the person would take to reload, and reacquire their target would add some 'random' to the mechanic. Properly balanced this could work quite well even without randomness.

Edit: Also I think it might occur a bit too often with those kinds of numbers. Make it take quite a while to build up ie. something like 45 for aks, maybe in the 60s for conventional armys. Jams aren't that frequent and in the time it takes for a jam to develop the player won't always be firing full auto which may help it feel less random.

why not 1 and a half mag full auto? sounds reasonable?

For both of these, the system is quite complex and very hard to guess numbers for heat and cooldown, and then match it to the amount of rounds fired. It took me a long time to get a match with the 25 shots for the AK so we'll have to see if i can do a 31. But for now it stays at 25

[Psyko]

for years all i ever heard was that "omg the sand in iraq makes my M16 jam nah nah nah", and here in this thread there are at least two accounts of "coilition forces clean their weapon more so they are more reliable."

if this is implimented, the values are going to have to be universal for all factions, with minor tweaks afterwards. dont start this project thinking, "if i make weapon jamming then i might be able to creep up on an insurgent when he's reloading and arrest his ***", that kind of biasm sucks and its becoming repetitve and boring. AK47s are renouned for their reliance against foreign bodies, like sludge in the breach ect.
the 556 weapons are way more susseptable to jamming and its really down to the environment, like sand and dust compared to forest where there arnt so many particals in the air.

also im wondering what kind of mechanics your suggesting. this over heat thing. does that mean if i fire off 60 rounds in 15 seconds the weapon is going to jam? or will it take far more ammo for that to happen?

Its a cool idea, and i hope it works, but im a little cynical about it.

[Smegburt_funkledink]

[quote=""'[R-DEV"]Chuc;1128421']No. No triggers for animation on overheat exist as far as I know.[/quote]

This kindof says that this idea shouldn't be implemented to me. Especially as you'll have to reload every time to clear the jam.

[quote="gazzthompson""]not being able to fire 25 rounds in full auto with AK is unrealistic and bad for gameplay, whats the point?[/quote]

Exactly.

Yeah, can't it be a random value so that it doesn't jam at the same amount of bullets on full auto everytime?

If it can't be random, this is a bad idea to have in game.

Fair enough, jamming is realistic but if it has to be done in this unrealistic fashion, it'll be ****. no offense.

[AquaticPenguin]

The best way to do this would be to have a slow gaining jam meter, and have it cool down at 1/2 the speed. The times that the soldier has to reload would make it seem less random and it would take a while of constant use before the jam would generate. Although this is only possible if the jam-o-meter can be reset when it overjams

Sgt Smeg, you can rely on the player to add the randomness rather than have the system random itself.

[AnRK]

He said a few pages back that he was going with the overheat meter as a basis for it yeah, like you say though although jamming is a random complex occurrence I bet it's more likely to happen if your burning through rounds like your in a Van Damme film.

[Ninja2dan]

Ok so i've been working on this for a few weeks but only put around 3 hours into it. I have figured out that my system works but i need some input from the community...

Gun related questions:
- Which jams more; Ak74 or AK47?
- Should BLUFOR guns jam more regularly than OPFOR guns? vice versa?
- Should the jamming penalties differ for BLUFOR and OPFOR?

Please only answer the first query of mine if u actually have R/L experience.. It doesn't help if u just guess

Cheers,
HangMan

Regarding the first question, it's not as simple as "which weapon jams more". Many factors will affect if and when a weapon jams, many of those factors have been mentioned by others. The same fact will apply to the second question.

If trying to compare the AK variants with the M16/M4 variants, it will honestly depend on the individual weapon. Because the AK series use a gas piston instead of a gas tube like the M-16 series, it tends to limit carbon buildup and fouling. The weapon also is produced with generally "bulkier" components, fewer components, and because of this it has fewer parts to fail. If you took a perfectly maintained AK-47 and tested it against a perfectly maintained M-16, chances are the M-16 will have a stoppage or failure before the AK model will. That is ONLY if you are using suitable ammunition in both weapons.

But even knowing those facts, chances are that any AK variant will jam up much more often than a NATO weapon such as the M16/M4. As mentioned by others, our soldiers train to maintain their weapons more than they maintain themselves at times. Our soldiers learn PMCS for their weapon the first day they train on it. Yet almost none of the insurgents we fight right now know how to even properly disassemble their AK, let alone maintain or repair it. I have seen weapons brought back from Iraq and Afghanistan that were so nasty that I'd be scared to fire it myself. Because of their lack of discipline in maintaining their weapons or their desire to keep the weapon safe, I'd say that alone will cause many AK's to jam frequently.

Combine the maintenance issues with the fact that most nations using the AK rifles are using cheap ammunition, and you have the perfect combination for failures. The 7.62x39mm ammunition being used in AK and SKS rifles in most nations is so bad that I wouldn't want to use it if my life depended on it. We're talking about very common casing ruptures, sheared bases, faulty primers, improperly crimped bullets, bad powder, etc. The list goes on and on. NATO ammunition isn't perfect, but I have had very few failures in US weapons based solely on bad ammunition. And I've fired probably millions of rounds in my service time.

One factor to think about as well is the clearing time for jams. Most people using an AK, even some government military units, don't train enough on clearing failures in combat. The M-16 for example is one of the few weapons in the world designed specifically with a feature to help ensure the round is properly seated. And most soldiers are trained from the day they touch a rifle on how to clear jams quickly and effectively in combat, to the point that it becomes natural reaction. Anyone who has fired an AK and had a stoppage knows just how annoying those damn things are to clear.

As for the AK-47 vs. AK-74, I'd say it depends on the nation using the weapon and which model is being used. The older stamped models of either weapon tend to fail more often than the milled versions. I have been seeing less and less stamped 74's in issue, but I still see a lot of stamped 47's around. The AK-74 does tend to jam more often though due to a higher ROF and smaller components, I also think the smaller round contributes to the problem. I would have to say that insurgents are probably going to have more 47's than 74's due to availability, but in the hands of an insurgent or poorly-trained military soldier, the 74 will have more failures.

My opinion is that overall AK variants will have more failures over time compared to the M16/M4 variants, and the AK models will take slightly more time to clear. Not necessarily due to the weapons themselves, but because of the people using each and their attention to maintenance and level of training.

Unfortunately, because this is a game where players are on both sides of the fence, making the OPFOR weapons jam more often and take longer to clear is not going to be seen as fair, even if it is more realistic. I honestly don't know how you'd implement such a feature realistically and still keep it balanced.

[Chuc]

I honestly don't know how you'd implement such a feature realistically and still keep it balanced.

Quite true. If I understand what kind of cvars you're toying with hangman, that there are only 3 values that can be modified using the overheating system. To be frank, it's a nightmare of balancing so many variables that I would rather you not continue to endure much longer.