Attack Helos Discussion

[McBumLuv]

I agree spot on with Alex. The entire environment and capabilities of the current air assets in PR makes their use, effectiveness, and playability completely nul. This is especially apparent in helicopters.

I have yet to remember the last time I've been shot down by any, I've certainly killed them probably three times as much as I've been killed by them, at least. I tend to avoid them in PR as of late, because it's just not worth the effort, and because I really don't accomplish much in them.

I think any decent player who's experience helicopters first hand can agree with Alex.

EDIT: Yes, please come to the CA Test to see for yourselves how the changes can affect gameplay. While Cas has said you should if you agree with Alex, I believe you should either way really, if only to actually get a sense of what changes would imply before comparing, criticizing or recommending.

[CAS_117]

ballard_44;1144271']Exactly. Put your money where your mouth is.

The stuff that CA is working on can only be implemented into PR if it is tested at FULL scale.

That way the PR brass can determine what could work and what can't for PR.

Enough talk about how helis are nerfed.
Ad nauseam.

CAS and Alex have set it up, so help them test it.

Well it does seem that people often agree with an idea but are unwilling to try it for themselves.

Talk is cheap to borrow a phrase.

[Hunt3r]

Simple fact is, helicopters are not very usefull now at all, nor realistic in attributes or behaviour.

However many spotters you have, wingmen etc, unless the enemy team is utter **** you are going to die, no choice about it.

The other point of course is if I want I can choose to single handedly take out all the enemy choppers, not only that, I can do it with many things.

Almosts standard procedure on kashan now is go to 1200 altitude, hunt enemy choppers, if you live, swoop down and shoot at stuff before you die. I have had spotters, been spotter, and the chopper never lasts long with bad pilots, good pilots (not the typic stereotype everyone is stuck too, but decent respected all round players)...


The people who think the current situation is ok are the ones that never or almost fly, have some strange dislike for anything airborne or simply don´t care. Every decent player I have spoken to that has a passion for flying whilst not being "uber leet air whore" seems to agree that they arent right, to differing levels.


Yes, sometimes a chopper will rape the eemy team, but its rare and the enemy team really has to be useless...


In any case, no need to keep discussing it, the point of CA is to increase the realism, teamwork, maintain balance (some of which imo is lacking atm) and at the same time make it fun as an experiment and proof of how it can work despite some peoples pessimism.

On a training server, the only time I've ever managed to destroy AA was either because they weren't looking our way and my pilot had time to stabilise the helo so I could send a single Hellfire into a Tunguska and then finishing off the other AAV with my 20mm.

Attack helicopters have to be hovering for hellfires to ever have enough accuracy. Otherwise it goes down to luck. If your pilot suddenly jerks while you're guiding a Hellfire, it'll shoot straight up... into the wall behind the tank.

I would gladly test the helo gunning system when CA .997 comes out and we have a mass test. Going to get up a post.

The point remains that the Hellfire system needs fixing before PR hits 1.0. The attack helicopter are broken, and we only need to remove the current laser guided mode, and replace it with TV guided mode and heat seeking mode.

And the challenge for those who gun or fly attack helos in PR is to play a round against a competent enemy, flying at no more then 100 meters altitude, killing armor with only one shot, and you can't have more then 2 ATGMs left when you get back to base.

You can't be taken out by armor, small arms fire, or anything that is not an AAV. The challenge only applies if you have air superiority.

[alexaus]

but the TV missiles where to Easy. you would destroy everything if they put a tv guided mode back in

[Mora]

But its not the same as the vbf2 tv guided system. Here its like click and the missiles goes there, but the camera just stays on the chopper it self. So you guide the missile to its target by clicking but from the choppers view.

[Rudd]

One problem with choppers is that you don't have a clue when someone on the ground is shooting at you.


The House of pain mod has a nice feature where if ur chopper is hit, it rocks around like there's no tomorrow. Though their effect is overdone. I think the effect is achieved by giving heavy rounds the ability to push objects slightly.

[Mora]

Which is not such a bad idea, i mean i can imagine that when a chopper gets hit by the anti air cannons that it would be pushed away abit. Or more like pushed into 2 parts

[Rhino]

every action has a equal and opposite reaction, sounds like a realistic idea, maybe one the CA guys could look into?

[fuzzhead]

APCs used to have that blowback effect on their cannons in PR.... it had the bad side effect of moving TANKS an undesireable distance hehe might be tweakable though, good to look into.


About the main topic: Attack Helicopters.

I agree much could be done with the attack helicopters to make them feel more realistic and get used more like real life. But we got to keep in mind that the maps are only 4km. RL attack heli in a conventional warfare (which has never happened before afaik where both opposing militaries had roughly the same tech) would probably be somewhere at its MINIMUM engagement range of 4km (ie the entire map) however firing from mainbase to mainbase on a map and destroying all assets on the battlefield within 1 minute of round start wouldnt be too interesting now would it . If we had 24km sq maps and 200 players per team, it would be different but not yet, so we have to make some compromises to attack aircraft capabilities in order to maintain the scale of the battlefield. Trust me, Im all for realism when it comes to all the vehicles and their RL capabilities, but keeping the current scale limitations of BF2 engine in mind is vital to making the current aircraft behave realistically.

One thing I think people are taking too far in this thread though is to say that the current attack helicopters in PR v0.87 are "broken"..... umm wtf??? Not sure of any other mods out there that have the same capabilities of PR's attack helicopters (or maps to use these capabilities). Saying they are "broken" is a bit weird I think. Limited capability or poorly equipped maybe, but "Broken" is an exagerrated statement.


fuzzhead as a pilot?!? wtf

Last 3 times I've flown in an attack helicopter in v0.87, the helicopter was never shot down and took AA missle impacts and each time made our way back to the airfield to tell the tale. This was muttrah city (tiny map for attack heli mind you), Kashan Desert and Qinling. At times where we took alot of fire and lived, I felt like I was TOO armored sometimes, esp against AA rockets..... keep in mind I dont fly as often as other roles in PR, usually because there is a line up of pilots waiting to take such assets and prompty crash them in the side of mountain/building and blame lag Thats not to say I dont enjoy it, its extremely enjoyable, challenging and requires a certain finesse and timing thats unique from all the other roles in PR. I would love to fly CAS more often, but usually on the servers I visit I see less desireables end up in the air assets on asset heavy maps, leaving a big need for infantry squad leaders, but such is life of online game public servers.

I'm definitely no expert pilot, I fly with mouse and keyboard and have prety limited experience, but can usually keep a heli in the air for a 2 hour round if I plan ahead of time, and have also seen other half decent pilots do the same... if the current system was "broken" this would simply not be possible or damn near impossible? Again not saying major improvements are not needed; but saying "broken" I think discredits the effort of what has already been done and certainly demotivates any potential improvements being made, whats the point if it will all be constantly discredited and considered a failure?


fuzz's CAS tactics 101

I think alot of the current issues can be lessened by the players behavior themselves, and how they pilot such vital pieces of kit. IMO a key thing that most pilots miss the concept of is: Timing. Alot of the PR CAS pilots I've seen seem to get into the seat, and immediately take off without checking a map or having any plan. This will get you killed as an infantry squad or an armor squad real fast, and just because your in an air asset does not make your fate any different. Actually, being in the attack helicopter immediately makes you a higher threat target than the other roles and therefore makes planning a more vital step towards your survival.... in fact your one of the highest threats in game, there is no higher target value on the battlefield than attack aircraft. If you fly in uncertain territory just because you got nothing better to do, then ya, getting shot down is prety much an inevitability with the current system, which i think is fine. If you get bored easily, then flying in PR will probably be a disappointment for you as youll spend most of your time on the ground, waiting for your aircraft to respawn.

Being a pilot in PR, I like to think 3 or 4 steps ahead. Always have the safe airspace in mind when flying. Always operate with a FAC (Forward Air Controller) within your squad or with a 3rd party voice program such as mumble/ts/vent. Always be ready with your next move, keep in mind high threat areas and dangerous areas and especially when ground forces spot AA or enemy helicopters/jets. Always use flares in high AA threat areas. If a target is called in an area where enemy AA is present, you have to proceed with extreme caution, and its usually best to avoid flying in the area unless you have a very precise position of the AA and its disposition. I dont think this is an unfair concept, AA is the counter to an attack aircraft, and manning that AA is definitely not as "fun" as flying, so your already at an advantage just sitting in the seat as the AA guy is probably much more likely to get "bored" first

A tactic that worked well for me in the past, is to patrol and observe in friendly safe airspace, observing your surroundings while your FAC is observing friendly unit movements as well as scouting potential high threats to the current team objective and communicating with the leadership of your team. Key is TEAM objective. You are a support unit, where the majority of your infantry are at is where you'll more than likely need the most support. When a high threat target to your infantry is identified and your cleared hot, move to engage the targets with extreme prejudice and speed, and then gtfo.... works like a charm. This helps the team immensely when they need it most and you dont lose your aircraft in the process. If your not communicating with the team and just searching for targets at random, sure you may stumble on enemy convoys that are unprepared to deal with you, but you are also putting your aircraft at considerable risk, and when the targets may not be threatening your team at that time. Sometimes its best to simply observe the enemy and let him move unhindered until you observe a moment where he appears vulnerable, and this is the time to strike!


A little word on a popular tactic with PR Pilots: Pre-emptive strikes

Pre-emptive strikes on enemy targets is very popular with PR pilots, they want to be the first to spot the enemy targets and be the judge, jury and executioner on the target - the ultimate hunter-killer. Although effective (in both RL and PR), I think this is a tactic best used AFTER you have won territorial supremacy and your ground forces are on the up-stroke of a succesful assault. If you chose to pre-emptively attack enemy targets at your discretion (and not with the guidance of a commander), your putting considerable risk to your aircraft needlessly and for targets, that for as much as you know, are not priority threats to your team objective at the moment. If you lose your aircraft at a time like this, then you will not be present for when these threats DO become high priority targets for your team, and you will have failed to serve the purpose of your role: close air SUPPORT. And that is my point about Timing: most pilots dont get it, they want to hit targets hard and fast and immediately, they do not want to wait for their team to gain territorial surpremacy, and thus are risking the entire operation on gambling with their valuable/useful vehicle with luck that the enemy is not prepared for their pre-emptive strikes.


Precision Air-delivered Death: A Psychological-Warfare Advantage

A big factor in PR rounds that many players may not think about but I believe is a definite big factor to victory on large operations like kashan and qinling is the psychological effect that air power has on the enemy. To suddenly die and not know where it came from, this is a big effect on morale... to know an enemy is out there that you cannot see or (seemingly) kill.... this will effect the enemies tactics and plans. Just by keeping your attack aircraft in the air and ready to strike at a moments notice, you are striking a blow to the enemies morale and psychological outlook on the battle. Everyone knows the feeling when your teams armor/deployable assets are being strategically picked off, and your team begins requesting in chat "Is the enemy havok/cobra down?!?!" "where is the enemy heli?!". On the flip side, the relief of knowing the enemy air power is out of commision for xx minutes will usually give your team/commander enough confidence to launch a major offensive in qinling but especially kashan and muttrah, as you know you can advance deep into enemy territory without the need for extensive AA overwatch. When your team always has an attack aircraft on standby and ready to deliver when its needed most, every major push that the enemy makes, can be countered by your precision strikes on their key assets at key moments in the engagement. This hurts the enemy greatly and definitely makes the enemy feel less desire to push further on their attacks and creates a buffer for friendly forces and relieves the pressure off your ground infantry. Once the enemy pulls its pressure off, then its time to consider taking on an aggressor role and this is when your team may take territorial supremacy over the enemy as his disposition begins to turn into a defensive one instead of offensive.

Getting blow'd up.... an inevitable certainty but with player driven factors.

Now of course we cant expect to always stay alive in an attack helicopter, there is so many random factors that will affect your survival, some out of your control but many factors can be altered to greatly increase your odds of survival. In PR presently, attack aircraft are heavily reliant on the ground forces to do a good job, even with that happening there is just plain bad luck: lag, lucky AA positioning/launch, disconnects/server kicks, etc. However, good pilots can negate alot of potential factors by having a set of SOP's and sticking to them, and always err on the side of caution when flying. For me, I like to roleplay a bit when I fly: I try to actually envision myself flying this enormously complex multi million dollar piece of equipment - not saying this is a requirement but try it if you like, might be fun hehe.

If your ground forces aren't working with you or they are behaving stupidly or just poorly skilled, then ya currently you probably wont have much luck in the air, but thats also true on the ground: if your air power is sucking ***, then ground forces will most likely be having a bad day too depending on enemy disposition. This codependence on each other (ground and air forces) is a strong point in gameplay of PR and also a hinderance IMO. But I'd choose this tradeoff any day, to having a system where the attack aircraft are able to win a map even with no coordination with ground forces and poor teamwork overall on the team. If thats the case, then why even bother playing as infantry or armor units, just keep spawning back at the airfield and wait your turn for the next aircraft to spawn


50cal vs Attack Heli

For those saying to lower the damage that 50cal does to attack helicopter.... maybe some adjustments should be made and the values inspected certainly for each helicopter, but I dont think its a clear cut approach. RL speaking, a burst from a 50cal hitting most helicopters (especially blades) would probably certainly force the air crew to make an emergency escape manuver, or disable a vital system and cause the helicopter to crash. To have a sustained 50cal scoring impacts on the helicopter, and the helicopter to remain on target like we have in PR atm, would probably end badly for the helicopter, not the hidden 50cal threat. I think most players greatly overestimate the armor protection on these helicopters (especially transport) vs HMG rounds, some of which are specifically designed to down aircraft. However, like rudd mentions, when flying alot of times its really hard to tell your getting shot at or getting hit. Adding some more visual cue to taking damage would go a long way to help air crew become more aware, but I think this is true in all vehicles as well.

The main thing that I think needs improving somehow is the gunner seat, at this moment it is prety frustrating to use properly, you need to be very patient and "skilled" to use, ie know exactly how to compensate for all the shakiness, hitbox lag, etc.

Whether there is a workable solution in CA's latest version, well lets try it out and see on this test date, hopefully Ill be there too to see how things go.

One thing I would like to clearly stress again though.... currently there is only 2 x 4km maps in PR. IMO those are the only maps where large attack aircraft like attack heli make sense. And no, I dont think the Cobra should be on Muttrah City
So currently the attack heli is a prety small element in PR, where only 2 out of 24 maps have their support properly.

For v0.9, we will be getting a much needed influx of new, detailed 4km maps. This will help alot in deploying these assets more realistically, and hopefully we can improve their weapon systems as well.

[Hunt3r]

fuzzhead;1144531']APCs used to have that blowback effect on their cannons in PR.... it had the bad side effect of moving TANKS an undesireable distance hehe might be tweakable though, good to look into.


About the main topic: Attack Helicopters.

I agree much could be done with the attack helicopters to make them feel more realistic and get used more like real life. But we got to keep in mind that the maps are only 4km. RL attack heli in a conventional warfare (which has never happened before afaik where both opposing militaries had roughly the same tech) would probably be somewhere at its MINIMUM engagement range of 4km (ie the entire map) however firing from mainbase to mainbase on a map and destroying all assets on the battlefield within 1 minute of round start wouldnt be too interesting now would it . If we had 24km sq maps and 200 players per team, it would be different but not yet, so we have to make some compromises to attack aircraft capabilities in order to maintain the scale of the battlefield. Trust me, Im all for realism when it comes to all the vehicles and their RL capabilities, but keeping the current scale limitations of BF2 engine in mind is vital to making the current aircraft behave realistically.

One thing I think people are taking too far in this thread though is to say that the current attack helicopters in PR v0.87 are "broken"..... umm wtf??? Not sure of any other mods out there that have the same capabilities of PR's attack helicopters (or maps to use these capabilities). Saying they are "broken" is a bit weird I think. Limited capability or poorly equipped maybe, but "Broken" is an exagerrated statement.


fuzzhead as a pilot?!? wtf

Last 3 times I've flown in an attack helicopter in v0.87, the helicopter was never shot down and took AA missle impacts and each time made our way back to the airfield to tell the tale. This was muttrah city (tiny map for attack heli mind you), Kashan Desert and Qinling. At times where we took alot of fire and lived, I felt like I was TOO armored sometimes, esp against AA rockets..... keep in mind I dont fly as often as other roles in PR, usually because there is a line up of pilots waiting to take such assets and prompty crash them in the side of mountain/building and blame lag Thats not to say I dont enjoy it, its extremely enjoyable, challenging and requires a certain finesse and timing thats unique from all the other roles in PR. I would love to fly CAS more often, but usually on the servers I visit I see less desireables end up in the air assets on asset heavy maps, leaving a big need for infantry squad leaders, but such is life of online game public servers.

I'm definitely no expert pilot, I fly with mouse and keyboard and have prety limited experience, but can usually keep a heli in the air for a 2 hour round if I plan ahead of time, and have also seen other half decent pilots do the same... if the current system was "broken" this would simply not be possible or damn near impossible? Again not saying major improvements are not needed; but saying "broken" I think discredits the effort of what has already been done and certainly demotivates any potential improvements being made, whats the point if it will all be constantly discredited and considered a failure?


fuzz's CAS tactics 101

I think alot of the current issues can be lessened by the players behavior themselves, and how they pilot such vital pieces of kit. IMO a key thing that most pilots miss the concept of is: Timing. Alot of the PR CAS pilots I've seen seem to get into the seat, and immediately take off without checking a map or having any plan. This will get you killed as an infantry squad or an armor squad real fast, and just because your in an air asset does not make your fate any different. Actually, being in the attack helicopter immediately makes you a higher threat target than the other roles and therefore makes planning a more vital step towards your survival.... in fact your one of the highest threats in game, there is no higher target value on the battlefield than attack aircraft. If you fly in uncertain territory just because you got nothing better to do, then ya, getting shot down is prety much an inevitability with the current system, which i think is fine. If you get bored easily, then flying in PR will probably be a disappointment for you as youll spend most of your time on the ground, waiting for your aircraft to respawn.

Being a pilot in PR, I like to think 3 or 4 steps ahead. Always have the safe airspace in mind when flying. Always operate with a FAC (Forward Air Controller) within your squad or with a 3rd party voice program such as mumble/ts/vent. Always be ready with your next move, keep in mind high threat areas and dangerous areas and especially when ground forces spot AA or enemy helicopters/jets. Always use flares in high AA threat areas. If a target is called in an area where enemy AA is present, you have to proceed with extreme caution, and its usually best to avoid flying in the area unless you have a very precise position of the AA and its disposition. I dont think this is an unfair concept, AA is the counter to an attack aircraft, and manning that AA is definitely not as "fun" as flying, so your already at an advantage just sitting in the seat as the AA guy is probably much more likely to get "bored" first

A tactic that worked well for me in the past, is to patrol and observe in friendly safe airspace, observing your surroundings while your FAC is observing friendly unit movements as well as scouting potential high threats to the current team objective and communicating with the leadership of your team. When a high threat target is identified and your cleared hot, you engage the targets with extreme prejudice, and gtfo.... works like a charm. This helps the team immensely when they need it most and you dont lose your asset. When your not communicating and just searching for targets at random, sure you may stumble on enemy convoys that are unprepared to deal with you, but you are putting your aircraft at considerable risk, and when the targets may not be threatening your team at that time. Sometimes its best to simply observe the enemy and let him move unhindered until you observe a moment where he appears vulnerable, and this is the time to strike!


A little word on a popular tactic with PR Pilots: Pre-emptive strikes

Pre-emptive strikes on enemy targets I think is a tactic best used AFTER you have won territorial supremacy and your ground forces are on the up-stroke of a succesful assault. If you chose to pre-emptively attack enemy targets at your leisure (and not with the guidance of a commander), your risking your aircraft needlessly and for targets that for as much as you know, are not priority threats to your team at the moment. If you lose your aircraft at this time, then when the threats DO become high priority targets for your team, you will have failed to serve the purpose of your role: close air SUPPORT. And that is my point about Timing: most pilots dont get it, they want to hit targets hard and fast and immediately, they do not want to wait for their team to gain territorial surpremacy, and thus are risking the entire operation on gambling their vehicle with luck that the enemy is not prepared for their pre-emptive strikes.


Precision Air-delivered Death: A Psychological-Warfare Advantage

A big factor in PR rounds that many players may not think about is the psychological effect that air power has on the enemy. To suddenly die and not know where it came from, this is a big effect on morale... to know an enemy is out there that you cannot see or (seemingly) kill.... this will effect the enemies tactics and plans. Just by keeping your attack aircraft in the air and ready to strike at a moments notice, you are striking a blow to the enemies morale and psychological outlook on the battle. Everyone knows the feeling when your teams armor/deployable assets are being strategically picked off, and your team begins requesting in chat "Is the enemy havok/cobra down?!?!" "where is the enemy heli?!". On the flip side, the relief of knowing the enemy air power is out of commision for xx minutes will usually give your team/commander enough confidence to launch a major offensive in qinling but especially kashan and muttrah, as you know you can advance deep into enemy territory without the need for extensive AA overwatch. When your team always has an attack aircraft on standby and ready to deliver when its needed most, every major push that the enemy makes, can be countered by your precision strikes on their key assets at key moments in the engagement. This hurts the enemy greatly and definitely makes the enemy feel less desire to push further on their attacks and creates a buffer for friendly forces and relieves the pressure off your ground infantry. Once the enemy pulls its pressure off, then its time to consider taking on an aggressor role and this is when your team may take territorial supremacy over the enemy as his disposition begins to turn into a defensive one instead of offensive.

Getting blow'd up.... an inevitable certainty but with player driven factors.

Now of course we cant expect to always stay alive in an attack helicopter, there is so many random factors that will affect your survival, some out of your control but many factors can be altered to greatly increase your odds of survival. In PR presently, attack aircraft are heavily reliant on the ground forces to do a good job, even with that happening there is just plain bad luck: lag, lucky AA positioning/launch, disconnects/server kicks, etc. However, good pilots can negate alot of potential factors by having a set of SOP's and sticking to them, and always err on the side of caution when flying. For me, I like to roleplay a bit when I fly: I try to actually envision myself flying this enormously complex multi million dollar piece of equipment - not saying this is a requirement but try it if you like, might be fun hehe.

If your ground forces aren't working with you or they are behaving stupidly or just poorly skilled, then ya currently you probably wont have much luck in the air, but thats also true on the ground: if your air power is sucking ***, then ground forces will most likely be having a bad day too depending on enemy disposition. This codependence on each other (ground and air forces) is a strong point in gameplay of PR and also a hinderance IMO. But I'd choose this tradeoff any day, to having a system where the attack aircraft are able to win a map even with no coordination with ground forces and poor teamwork overall on the team. If thats the case, then why even bother playing as infantry or armor units, just keep spawning back at the airfield and wait your turn for the next aircraft to spawn


50cal vs Attack Heli

For those saying to lower the damage that 50cal does to attack helicopter.... maybe some small adjustments should be made and the values inspected certainly, but I dont think its a clear cut approach. RL speaking, a burst from a 50cal hitting an attack helicopter would probably certainly force the air crew to make an emergency escape manuver, or disable a vital system and cause the helicopter to crash. To have a sustained 50cal impacts like we have in PR to take it down, it would most probably kill/wound the air crew and certainly cause the helicopter to crash. I think most players greatly overestimate the armor protection on these helicopters vs HMG rounds, some of which are specifically designed to down such aircraft. However, like rudd mentions, alot of times its really hard to tell your getting shot at or getting hit. Adding some more visual cue to taking damage would go a long way to help air crew become more aware, but I think this is true in all vehicles as well.

The main thing that I think needs improving somehow is the gunner seat, at this moment it is prety frustrating to use properly, you need to be very patient and "skilled" to use, ie know exactly how to compensate for all the shakiness, hitbox lag, etc.

Whether there is a workable solution in CA's latest version, well lets try it out and see on this test date, hopefully Ill be there too to see how things go.

One thing I would like to clearly stress again though.... currently there is only 2 x 4km maps in PR. IMO those are the only maps where large attack aircraft like attack heli make sense. And no, I dont think the Cobra should be on Muttrah City
So currently the attack heli is a prety small element in PR, where only 2 out of 24 maps have their support properly.

For v0.9, we will be getting a much needed influx of new, detailed 4km maps. This will help alot in deploying these assets more realistically, and hopefully we can improve their weapon systems as well.

When I say broken, I mean it is bad against tanks.

The Cobra is meant for CAS, I will admit, but the Mi-28 and Apache are not. They are both armored somewhat heavily, with the Mi-28 being able to take serious flak with little trouble. The Apache is designed to take .50 cal and small arms fire with little trouble.

I believe this was stated by someone on this forum who worked with Apaches.

[Nemus]

But we got to keep in mind that the maps are only 4km. RL attack heli in a conventional warfare (which has never happened before afaik where both opposing militaries had roughly the same tech) would probably be somewhere at its MINIMUM engagement range of 4km (ie the entire map)

True. But mostly for jets. In my opinion one of the major causes of pilot's bad name in PR and BF2 in general are the "Dogfighters" who think that flying with something closer to X-Wing than reality in 4x4 Km maps makes them equal to Top Gun's aces.

But helicopters are an other case. With Dynamic Launch Zones and view distances much smaller than reality they somehow fit in maps.

Of course many people thinks that a pilot's life is easy because CNN shows scenes of attack helicopters in full watched by planes , satelites, drones etc enviroments and with air superiority over it. Plus the electronic warfare. Over unknown territory a helicopter is in constant danger.
So I agree that a pilot without proper intel should be dead within minutes.
The question is: Can he operates right now even with intel?
Yes if he has total unrealistic tactics. Like flying too high and spam missiles and flares.

Of course some are caused by BF2 engine other from players' lack of proper tactics (Just two or three times i saw a pilot who doesnt fly over his target after attack run) and other from PR's "tactic" to refuse ovepower to individuals.
Correct tactic but firepower doesnt mean necesary overpower. What's the point to have super missiles if i cant approach to launch distance?

For those saying to lower the damage that 50cal does to attack helicopter.... maybe some small adjustments should be made and the values inspected certainly, but I dont think its a clear cut approach. RL speaking, a burst from a 50cal hitting an attack helicopter would probably certainly force the air crew to make an emergency escape manuver, or disable a vital system and cause the helicopter to crash.

Correct but you already gave the answer yourself:

so we have to make some compromises to attack aircraft capabilities in order to maintain the scale of the battlefield.

We made already some compromises like two shots in the heart with 7.62 for a critical wounded state (And actually in many cases IRL a heartshot is more deadly than a headshot.Nobody died because of a shoted nose.)
Why not make such compromises in helicopters? Doesnt work? We change it. PR is evolving all time.

[Hunt3r]

Well anyhow I doubt that this is what the devs want. Yes, I'm sure the devs want to have attack helicopters be effective against tanks and infantry, but being able to down tanks for sure with one shot probably stands as overpowering to the devs.

But the devs need to give the Cobra and Apache an extra Hellfire, they have 2 racks of 4 Hellfires. The Apache also needs an extra 200 cannon rounds, mainly because precision is not the forte of attack helos, tbh.

I am somewhat satisfied with how the attack helicopters work, but I think there is still more to be done. I'd compromise with having unguided Hellfires, as suggested before.

Now unguided Hellfires would be a godsend compared to the current laser guided system. Having your pilot suddenly make the helo twitch will no longer have your Hellfire fly up 5 meters into some rocks.

Personally I find that it's far more reasonable then asking for being able to have lock on Hellfires.

And fuzz, attack helicopters in real life depend on line of sight, because the laser must not be scattered in fog or clouds. I think it's fair to ask that the attack helicopters be able to destroy armor that it can see with relative ease, because in reality, you just lock up a target in your TADS, your camera will follow it within it's angles of azimuth and elevation, and ranging is done automatically, as is guidance.

The cannon also has guidance. Locking up a target in TADS means you can engage with any weapon you want, as long as you're in range.

Remember! It's Project Reality, not Project Nerf.

[Alex6714]

Well anyhow I doubt that this is what the devs want. Yes, I'm sure the devs want to have attack helicopters be effective against tanks and infantry, but being able to down tanks for sure with one shot probably stands as overpowering to the devs.

But the devs need to give the Cobra and Apache an extra Hellfire, they have 2 racks of 4 Hellfires. The Apache also needs an extra 200 cannon rounds, mainly because precision is not the forte of attack helos, tbh.

They already have 8 hellfires and the havok has 16. The reason you think they have 7 and 15 respectively is the way the ammo is set up (8 mags of 1 rather than 1 mag of 8, therfore 1 mag loaded and 7 left)

The apache has 1000? rounds now because of a patch 1.5 limitation which means that you cannot have a magsize above 1024, though iirc a more appropiate value would be 900.

[DankE_SPB]

But the devs need to give the Cobra and Apache an extra Hellfire, they have 2 racks of 4 Hellfires.

you forget that 7= "reload" hellfires, 1 is already "loaded" so overall you have 8

The Apache also needs an extra 200 cannon rounds, mainly because precision is not the forte of attack helos, tbh.

how many you have now? something like 1000 iirc, taking into account current overheating rates its more than enough even if you constantly shooting with pauses to not overheat it will take long time to empty it

one question though, do they always fly with fully loaded 30mm i think there was some kind of discussion about it and somebody said that usually they are not top loaded but dont quote on that

[Hunt3r]

you forget that 7= "reload" hellfires, 1 is already "loaded" so overall you have 8

how many you have now? something like 1000 iirc, taking into account current overheating rates its more than enough even if you constantly shooting with pauses to not overheat it will take long time to empty it

one question though, do they always fly with fully loaded 30mm i think there was some kind of discussion about it and somebody said that usually they are not top loaded but dont quote on that

Yeah personally I think that the overheating system should be changed. Have it slowly start to degrade in accuracy, as the barrel warms up, and you can keep firing, but if you shoot off enough rounds consecutively the barrel should just go dead and you must land to repair and rearm to have the cannon back online.

[fuzzhead]

wrt ammo counts: afaik, especially in Afghanistan and harsh climates, the trade off for fuel consumption vs ammunition is always a concern and the loadouts are often alot less on cannon rounds to help keep the aircraft in the air longer... of course this changes with the different theater of war, though someone with more knowledge of that should speak up if they know.

[Alex6714]

wrt ammo counts: afaik, especially in Afghanistan and harsh climates, the trade off for fuel consumption vs ammunition is always a concern and the loadouts are often alot less on cannon rounds to help keep the aircraft in the air longer... of course this changes with the different theater of war, though someone with more knowledge of that should speak up if they know.

Indeed, according to the book Apache, f it hasn´t changed since then, the WAH-64s have a standard loadout of 300x 30mm, 28x 70mm rockets (12 flechette and 12 heisap iirc) and 2x hellfires. Of course this will change depending on the mission if they are dedicated to one, but thats the standard patrol loadout as far as I know. Though bearing in mind its an insurgency and the insurgents don´t have a good supply of tanks.

[Nemus]

wrt ammo counts: afaik, especially in Afghanistan and harsh climates, the trade off for fuel consumption vs ammunition is always a concern and the loadouts are often alot less on cannon rounds to help keep the aircraft in the air longer... of course this changes with the different theater of war, though someone with more knowledge of that should speak up if they know.

When Apache tested for first time in combat enviroments (Operation Desert Storm) didnt had much problems with its operational autonomy because of higher fuel consumption.

But experienced many problems with the cannon system.
Some Apache units reported even 50% cannon failure.
They believe that the main cause was component malfuctions within the ammunition carrier drive system and ammunition case swelling. With sand makes the problem worst.
The most effective solution was to load the helicopter with less ammunition (600 - 800 rounds)

(Source: http://archive.gao.gov/d32t10/146441.pdf Pages 28-29)

After that they thought to use the extra space for more fuel but mostly in patrol missions.

[Hunt3r]

Ok then, how about we reduce the cannon count to 750? Hellfires should stay as it is, as with the Hydras. If there's an Apache on an INS map, 1k cannon, 2 Hellfires, full load of Hydras.

[Sniperdog]

the fuel vs. weapons loadout is very true but also keep in mind that in PR all maps that have Attack Helos are conventional warfare based maps with very hot situations where a full loadout would likely be used.