Removing Kit Pickup

[killonsight95]

could u maybe model the helmets in but make them bigger than the ones you recive with kits? so they cover them?
although this could be trouble with the INS and taliban since they have a cloth over their head sometimes so you'll end up looking like th british AR with handkacef around his face

[Celestial1]

So we have to show you arabic documents about the AT4 to prove our point?

The point still stands, but I would debate it until proof can be shown either way; since I cannot prove that there is absolutely no documents in circulation about an AT4 launcher that insurgents could get a hold of, the ball is in your court.

I consider it ignorant to assume just because insurgents are living in Iraq and are at war with the US, that they have no means to distribute information.

Consider this: You write a codeword on a piece of paper, and want to have your entire state/province know that codeword. You cannot use the mail service. Sure, go ahead and use the internet. Create a web page for it. How do you ensure that everyone in your state sees it? You don't have all of their emails. Call them. You don't have everyone's number.

So your best bet is to distribute this piece of paper, or even just copies of this piece of paper if you can write them all, or to try to spread it around by word of mouth (chain emails, calling people you know and telling them to call people they know).


Now compare that to how the insurgency might work. Yeah, you know everyone in your group of warriors. You have connections with other groups. But you don't know all of them. It's a matter of time before that information gets around, but it takes some real effort to distribute and then a bit of luck to ensure that it gets where it needs to go and is taught.

My point is you can't accept one metaphor and just reject another similar one.

Metaphor isn't exactly the right word for this, but I digress.

And yes, I certainly can. I can compare Juliet to the Sun, and you can compare the Sun to Juliet or even another girl to the Sun. I can disagree to both of your comparisons, and accept only my own.

Celestial, your responses to some of my comments make me not want to respond. I don't know if it's intentional, or what, but you seem to focus on one sentence and build your replies around that.

I'm debating your points. If you don't want to debate, feel free to stop posting, and the debate will end.

You read it as "Insurgency is just a big turkey shoot for the coalition, take away our ability to pickup kits and it wouldn't be fair!"

What i have to reiterate for a third time, is that given the weapons insurgents have, pitted off against each other, 1 on 1, it will appear to be a turkey shoot for the coalition, because they will have no fear of being hit by the crappy weapons of the insurgents. There is no fear for the most part.

Do you disagree that US weapons are feared more than insurgent weapons? Do i have to keep explaining that idea to you?

Here's my logical thought progression to your statement. I give this to you in hopes you can point out at what stage I went wrong, because I fail to understand why how I "read it" was wrong.

If the Insurgents have better weapons, then they are feared.
If the Insurgents are feared, then it is not so much of a turkey shoot for the Coalition.
If the Insurgents have better weapons, then it is not so much of a turkey shoot for the Coalition.
If the insurgents do not have better weapons, then it is a turkey shoot for the Coalition.

Here have a free M136 AT4 manual available to anyone with the internet, complete with diagrams. You can find such manuals online pretty easily for most weapons in the US armory, you could probably work it out with the pictures alone and a translation would be easy.

With such material you could easily train insurgent troops with theory of operation and if you had an example on hand training would be as easy as pie.

I hope you live up to your promise.

You made a great point. The only question I have to ask would be if it is actually possible to view this information where it is not 'wanted' to be seen (blocking access to the website from the area's internet access). Regardless, I'm sure that there would be ways to get that information if it is hosted on public webspace elsewhere, and then imported back for their use; I'm just curious, as it would validate or revoke my point of it being hard to circulate that information. My comments will cease on the discussion of obtaining that sort of material as of now.

[martov]

Oregon-Iraq Guided Online English Studies
One Laptop per Child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Middle East Satellite Internet service providers: Two-way broadband access

they have education, internet and laptops. it seems enough to prove that they can have ppl who know how to teach anyone the 5 sentences that are said on the side of the AT4 IMO

oh, also
http://www.game-monitor.com/search.php? ... ype=server
7 game servers in iran. (http://mimarlink.com/wp-content/uploads ... 9/iran.gif )
come on!, there is ppl with PCs and english there, they arent stupid.

EDIT:
http://www.iraqdirectory.com/business/c ... cat_code=2
list of iraq hardware bussiness.

training is "outdated" (sort of)
http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/E ... her-.shtml

[badmojo420]

The point still stands, but I would debate it until proof can be shown either way; since I cannot prove that there is absolutely no documents in circulation about an AT4 launcher that insurgents could get a hold of, the ball is in your court.

Nah, if you care to know the truth, find it out for yourself.

Consider this: You write a codeword on a piece of paper, and want to have your entire state/province know that codeword. You cannot use the mail service. Sure, go ahead and use the internet. Create a web page for it. How do you ensure that everyone in your state sees it? You don't have all of their emails. Call them. You don't have everyone's number.

So your best bet is to distribute this piece of paper, or even just copies of this piece of paper if you can write them all, or to try to spread it around by word of mouth (chain emails, calling people you know and telling them to call people they know).


Now compare that to how the insurgency might work. Yeah, you know everyone in your group of warriors. You have connections with other groups. But you don't know all of them. It's a matter of time before that information gets around, but it takes some real effort to distribute and then a bit of luck to ensure that it gets where it needs to go and is taught.

Really? Are you honestly making this argument. I give in, you win.

Metaphor isn't exactly the right word for this, but I digress.

And yes, I certainly can. I can compare Juliet to the Sun, and you can compare the Sun to Juliet or even another girl to the Sun. I can disagree to both of your comparisons, and accept only my own.

Sure, you can accept or deny any metaphor you want to. But I honestly believe the majority of PR players would say you can pick up enemy kits because you've been trained prior to the war, in the usage of various types of weapons. NOT that they instantly learn how to use it upon picking it up. Which is what you suggested.

Another widely accepted metaphor is that players who request kits have taken the training prior to going to war. So i was just saying that these two 'metaphors' or whatever you want to call them, are so closely related, that accepting one and completely denying the other, is a little silly.

I mean, you could accept the metaphor and still think picking up enemy kits should not be allowed. But your basis for that shouldn't be that soldiers would not know how to use them.

I'm debating your points. If you don't want to debate, feel free to stop posting, and the debate will end.

Here's my logical thought progression to your statement. I give this to you in hopes you can point out at what stage I went wrong, because I fail to understand why how I "read it" was wrong.

If the Insurgents have better weapons, then they are feared.
If the Insurgents are feared, then it is not so much of a turkey shoot for the Coalition.
If the Insurgents have better weapons, then it is not so much of a turkey shoot for the Coalition.
If the insurgents do not have better weapons, then it is a turkey shoot for the Coalition.

I never said that not being able to pick up enemy kits would ruin the game for the insurgents. I only said it adds a new dynamic to the game. "Makes it more interesting" i think were my words, when you can salvage the enemies weapons.

I foolishly used the words turkey shoot which you jumped all over. What i meant by saying it was a turkey shoot for the coalition, is that they do not fear the insurgent weapons in most cases. Not that the overall gameplay of insurgency mode is similar to a turkey shoot.

You made a great point. The only question I have to ask would be if it is actually possible to view this information where it is not 'wanted' to be seen (blocking access to the website from the area's internet access). Regardless, I'm sure that there would be ways to get that information if it is hosted on public webspace elsewhere, and then imported back for their use; I'm just curious, as it would validate or revoke my point of it being hard to circulate that information. My comments will cease on the discussion of obtaining that sort of material as of now.

And that's just publicly available information. I would expect places like Iran and Lebanon, etc. to have obtained lots of information(of this type) through the use of spies or even reverse engineering the weapons themselves. I'm surprised it took this much to get you to believe that this type of information is available. And it's no secret that insurgents are being trained by forigners. Or will that comment spark another 'debate'?

[Bringerof_D]

@RJTravis: insurgents are not simply town folk, although they can be. insurgent does not imply any TYPE of person, it simply implies that they dont wear a uniform and they blend in with the population. an insurgent can be a war veteran, a defected military officer, a leftover from the armies the blufor crushed.

as for information spreading, it doesn't take internet or even phones to get a message around quickly. for us it may seem impossible because we are used to having these advantages but for them they can train birds like they do in the old days. make it live in a cage over your hide out for a year then take it ANYWHERE on the continent and it will find its way back. it is also pretty clear that insurgents have access to peers who know english well enough, how the hell do you think they interrogate captured soldiers and get them to say things on camera for the rest of us to see?

[freeway]

why do we need to fix what aint broken ? i play everyday , seeing ppl pick up enemy kits when ever they have a chance , i dont see what is wrong with it . your enemy JUST use it 2 mins ago then u should be able to , isnt this up to the soldier ? if he think enemy kits are better that is fine he could pick it up . insurgents love enemy kits , that is a part of the game . i bet ppl that like this idea they dont play as insurgents that much . even on US side they pick up AKs , RPGs , Marksman too so why r u whining ?

[TheLean]

This AT-4 debate is stupid. Of course its possible that insurgents have access to translated manuals. However, it is higly unlikely that they have those manuals on them, in the extremely rare case that they would come across an AT-4 launcher. Are there any reported events at all of insurgents getting there hands on US heavy equipment and using that against them? Real soldiers wouldnt leave as much as a m4 behind if a comrade is killed in battle, let alone his body.

[Bringerof_D]

This AT-4 debate is stupid. Of course its possible that insurgents have access to translated manuals. However, it is higly unlikely that they have those manuals on them, in the extremely rare case that they would come across an AT-4 launcher. Are there any reported events at all of insurgents getting there hands on US heavy equipment and using that against them? Real soldiers wouldnt leave as much as a m4 behind if a comrade is killed in battle, let alone his body.

and thus why kits disapear after a minute or 2, if the guy died out in the middle of the road by himself and an insurgent was fast enough to pick it up, that means no one was their to retrieve his body/equipment

[Rissien]

I don't see friendly fire incidents so much anymore with enemy kits unless its at range or when 'sneaking' u on friendlies. Only really happened when .85 first came out and everyne was still getting used to it.

[scotty_whos_scotty?]

good idea but would be hell if i couldnt get a SAW on insurgent side!

[R.J.Travis]

@RJTravis: insurgents are not simply town folk, although they can be. insurgent does not imply any TYPE of person, it simply implies that they dont wear a uniform and they blend in with the population. an insurgent can be a war veteran, a defected military officer, a leftover from the armies the blufor crushed.

as for information spreading, it doesn't take internet or even phones to get a message around quickly. for us it may seem impossible because we are used to having these advantages but for them they can train birds like they do in the old days. make it live in a cage over your hide out for a year then take it ANYWHERE on the continent and it will find its way back. it is also pretty clear that insurgents have access to peers who know english well enough, how the hell do you think they interrogate captured soldiers and get them to say things on camera for the rest of us to see?

1) The Insurgents you are playing are the angry towns folk the veteran's would be the commander and maybe a few squad leaders.

2) I think its more realistic to say if a insurgent gets a hold of a coalition solider it is more likely a high ranking member would speak english and he would be used to do the interrogating.

3)The dev team wants to keep the game mode as far away from AAS as they can there for Insurgents mode won't ever really change much what you habe know is what you will have a year from know xD the spawning system is the only real thing that may change + the Civi.

I do think the Insurgents could in fact fire a AT4 if given time to fug around with it long enough "they may kill them selfs but lol no one would care"

I stand by the fact that it is unrealistic for any faction in the game to "Be able to pick up anyones kit / gear Instantly there should be a 10 - 15 sec delay where your helpless trying to pick up a kit you can not just pick up there gun ammo rocket grenades in a a blink of an eye that sir is bullshit.

So in tell they add in a delay to picking a kit up they should be removed.

[rampo]

I do think the Insurgents could in fact fire a AT4 if given time to fug around with it long enough "they may kill them selfs but lol no one would care"

I dunno it looks quite simple...

[badmojo420]

1) The Insurgents you are playing are the angry towns folk the veteran's would be the commander and maybe a few squad leaders.

Do you have sources on this?

I stand by the fact that it is unrealistic for any faction in the game to "Be able to pick up anyones kit / gear Instantly there should be a 10 - 15 sec delay where your helpless trying to pick up a kit you can not just pick up there gun ammo rocket grenades in a a blink of an eye that sir is bullshit.

There is already a short delay from the weapons draw time, so it's not exactly instant. Also when a person in real life goes down and drops their gun, how long would it take you to pick it up and fire? I bet i could do it faster in real life than in PR, due to the long draw times.

It's unrealistic that they get EVERYTHING that the soldier has, like field dressing, nades, smoke, etc, etc. But that is a bf2 thing, if the devs could change that, i'm sure it would have already been changed.

What you have to remember is not everything in a mod is going to be 100% realistic. If you removed every feature from the game, that had parts which were unrealistic, then you would end up with an unrealistic game also. These things can be nit picked when your talking about a game from scratch, but this is a modified version of another game, you can't just remove the whole kit dropping system, because that would be highly unrealistic. Of course people will drop their weapons after being killed, and those weapons don't disappear or become unusable.

Just like they don't want to completely remove healing of wounded soldiers, because if you fell a couple feet and hurt yourself, dying from that would also be highly unrealistic. But, on the other hand you have people getting blown up by tanks, ieds, grenades, or head shotted by a sniper, and they still get revived.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try and work towards ironing out these unrealistic features. But we should not just completely scrap a whole system, just because of a few points that are slightly unrealistic. That's like saying because everyone can see all the markers on a map, nobody should get any type map, because its unrealistic for a foot soldier to have that kind of information in front of him at all times. Even tho it would be realistic for a commander or a squad leader to posses such info. If it can't be 100% ultra realistic in every facet, then it shouldn't be there at all?

[R.J.Travis]

There are alot of DEV members that want the unrealistic map removed I am sure you wont see a fake map in there PR2 c4 game.

2) I am sure if they wanted to they could add a delay to picking up a kit but you got to realize that they are not going to put in the time it would take to do it when they got a full game that needs work on that's going to make them alot more money then the small donations there getting atm.

3) No I do not think everything in the mod is going to be 100% realistic but over looking a major fault in your game "knowingly" is not acceptable now is it ?

The fastest and easiest way to fix the problems atm is to just simply.

In Insurgent mode add the AT4 & M203 to the spawn screen and give it the same limit as the SAW and remove the Stinger and HAT kits from the game mod. then remove all kits on death.

Remove the unscoped squad leader kit and the specialist let the SL request the none scoped gun from a fob/rally and give the scoped rifle man the hook problem fixed and would take no real time or effort to fix.

@rampo93(FIN)
? I said they could find out how to fire one with time.

Its a lot easier to find out how to fire it if its already set up and ready to fire like in your photo xD

[bloodthirsty_viking]

What if players could not drop a kit on the ground for others to pick up when killed?

Pros:

• A medic/AT/etc killed means you've got some real breathing room. They have to be revived to be brought back into use.
  the medic part here is kinda llready in, with only one medic, and although you can grab his kit, and revive him, you cant save him at all if you cant sqap kits...
• No more running around with enemy helmets or weapons, causing friendly fire. If we can't use their vehicles for fear of friendly fire, why are we picking up their helmets and weapons? (I know the helmet is a side effect of kit geometries)
  I like being able to look closer to the enemy, its nice for getting behind there lines with my squad either comming with me of covering, plus it makes them think twice about shooting..
  also, the reason you cant use there vheicals is not fear of friendly fire, it is because say you got out of your car, you could see it on your map, no matter what team its on.
• Can still pick up kits from crates, but not off of dead bodies.

Also, one last question, say the guy shooting a laT gets hit, while aiming and dies, in real life, another guy WOULD pick it up and fire it, i mean i dont know how hard it is, but its not much harder then point and shoot a allready loaded and ready to fire weapon.

Cons:

• Limited kits would not be saved, even if revived quickly. A possible solution might be to make them drop an invisible kit that cannot be picked up, but will still be given back to the player on revive (and if it stays there for 5 minutes, even better, since only the revived player can get it back)
  
  I dont know if it would be possible for this, just becuase, although the body grabs kits from a long distance (ive seen it as far as 10 m before) if a live player cant pick up a kit, how can one being revived auto pick it up. It would be best if they could choose a kit from the spawn menu, and that interwined with how many have it in the squad and game, and so if you got a lat, and there are 2 allowed in the server, it is in like a line, so you can wait.. nm, i allready see that would not work.....
  
  but you see what i am trying to say?
• Insurgents cannot steal enemy weaponry. I'm tossed on this, as it's not likely they'd have the ability to use enemy AT, etc; but then they would not be able to use enemy rifles either. It's a tossup.
  
  let me ask, have you ever fired a m-16, its not to hard to figure out, im sure in real life an insergent could figure it out in just a few minutes at most. i mean i did, when i was 13... and had neaver fired a gun in my life before... my father handed me a gun with the saftey on, said "shoot it downrage, keep the barrel pointed down range..." if you can use an ak, you preatty much can use an m-16. (both of whitch i have fired before)
• If the medic goes down, there is no healing available for the squad. A possible solution would be to make room in other kits by removing or reallocating kit pieces between other kits (such as removing incendiaries from all kits but specialist, officer, and engineer) to make room for a 'CPR/Drag' slot, which would act as a revive, allowing any player to 'drag' another to safety. (Also, to stop players from acting as impromptu medics by just using this in conjunction with field dressings, it might be of use to also look into implementing my other suggestion: Field Dressings that actually 'stop' bleeding

persionnaly, i like having an incindeary in my kit, to many times has my full squad ran into to many places to use incindeary nades (blow crates, hideouts, fobs, so on and so foruth) without getting more ammo, and end up with no more incinds left when we still need more, and i think this would just happen much more often.


Feedback is welcome.

Sorry is some of this was allready stated elsewhere, i dont have time to read the entire thread.

my oppinons in bold.

And Sorry for spelling errors.

[alberto_di_gio]

Sorry but a direct "No" from me. "Removing" kit pickup is so conflicting with the name of the Game (oops Mod sorry : )

What is the logic of disappearing kits? Do normally kits just disappear from the battlefield. If it wouldn't affect the game play and tactic balance too much I would suggest just let every kit stay where it is.

[Garmax]

I dunno it looks quite simple...

it is quiet simple actually, you hold like a rifle and like press two buttons..

plus it has like no recoil an insurgent could easily fire it, their poor and foreign but not stupid

[Herbiie]

Consider this: You write a codeword on a piece of paper, and want to have your entire state/province know that codeword. You cannot use the mail service. Sure, go ahead and use the internet. Create a web page for it. How do you ensure that everyone in your state sees it? You don't have all of their emails. Call them. You don't have everyone's number.

So your best bet is to distribute this piece of paper, or even just copies of this piece of paper if you can write them all, or to try to spread it around by word of mouth (chain emails, calling people you know and telling them to call people they know).


Now compare that to how the insurgency might work. Yeah, you know everyone in your group of warriors. You have connections with other groups. But you don't know all of them. It's a matter of time before that information gets around, but it takes some real effort to distribute and then a bit of luck to ensure that it gets where it needs to go and is taught.

Made me laugh - Howabout this - The Insurgent commander makes thousands of copies of the manual and goes around posing as a civilian handing them to all of the cell leaders who then distribute it to their men, or just tell everyone how to use them. Sounds pretty simple.....

Also Real Effort?? Because the Insurgents are lazy aren't they.... by your view of the Insurgents how the hell do they get to be a threat to the Coalition?

Also this entire thread is stupid.... the only time you can pick up kits is when you've either slaughtered a whole squad or two or met a lone wolfer. And even if you do slaughter a whole squad you'll find it pretty difficult to get their kits before they go, but you do deserve them, and if it's a lone wolf - well you aren't supposed to lonewolf and it's the lone wolfer's fault.

[Bazul14]

NO NO NO NO NO NO!
Kit pickup is one of the few reasons why people play insurgency, besides the AK-47 and the sapper kit, and well perfaps the big red.
ITS realistic, i say those kits should have a longer "life" on the ground, as IRL the weapon will stay there if nobody touches it.