Sniper Kit Discussion - Removal?

[Sgt.Stryker]

People join you squad to take sniper rifles because the amount of people required to get the kit. Snipers provide necessary cover. They take out AA, AT, and MG's. Their scopes also allow them to spot for CAS and other things.

[AquaticPenguin]

People join you squad to take sniper rifles because the amount of people required to get the kit. Snipers provide necessary cover. They take out AA, AT, and MG's. Their scopes also allow them to spot for CAS and other things.

The number of people required is 2, ie a sniper and a spotter. If you can't collaborate with one other person how will you collaborate with the rest of the team? I've never been a fan of snipers, and although what you describe can happen, it very rarely does. What use is a weapon which is rarely useful to the team? Surely not having the sniper gives you more team players on the field, and filters out some players who just want to play the elite spec-ops sniper role instead.

[dtacs]

That's just ridiculous. Not every tardy sniper will turn into this. With the use of VOIP and showing these guys the ropes you can transform a tardy sniper into a great infantryman. Of course there are those players who just won't learn and continue to be an absolute tard. This is however a different issue in my opinion.

Turn into this? Its already the situation with majority of the players who get the kit. Those who get it are usually in one man squads, I for one don't have the time to stop whatever I'm doing and join their squad to tell them what to do. Team chat is a great tool, when those without tunnel vision read it.

PR is so all over the place that the 'sniper giving cover for the squad' concept is fruitless and farfetched. Since there is no mentality of 'I should conserve my on life by not doing stupid rushing maneuver of flank', a live sniper or squad member can be come a dead one in seconds. I've never - in my two and a bit years of playing - have had a sniper eliminate a target in front of me that was an obstacle to the objective.

Other than completely removing the kit, I'd like to see a message saying 'Remember, the SNIPER kit is about recon, rather than solely for killing. Remember to pass on intelligence of enemy movements and locations for your team, and commander', which would appear under the 'Your kit has been ALLOCATED at your feet' text on the screen. Often the most obvious and blatant approach to the problem is the successful one.

Surely not having the sniper gives you more team players on the field, and filters out some players who just want to play the elite spec-ops sniper role instead.

I concur, in addition those who are currently dynamite with the kit can fulfill their roles without it I'm sure

[=]H[=TangFiend]

I've heard some really great suggestions for restricting snipers over the years that would really benefit if implemented.

1. Sniper Kit can ONLY be requested if there is a comander

2. Sniper Kit can ONLY be requested in a 2 or 3 man squad

3. Sniper rifle should be the last item on the gear select for the kit (when you mouse wheel down)

4. Sniper kit should have a radio like the squadleader

Every one of these to shift the focus away from trying to pad a killstreak and use the kit for proper reconnaissance

[alberto_di_gio]

They take out AA, AT, and MG's.

support! last night in Kashan only snipers made an effect on those bloody overpowered TOWs

[SSnake]

IMO the sniper kit is both a noob magnet that atracts the non teamworker selfish type of player and it's a usefull kit for teamwork oriented players that are willing to do recon (OK you can do recon with other kits but the sniper is the only one that allows you to be in a safe distance for recon purposes and combat efective from that distance at the same time). The very few times I play as a dedicated sniper I stay at a safe position (always far away from battle) reporting enemy movement on teamchat ( even when I few that ppl aren't paying attention) and taking out the important targets and/or the ones that won't know who shot them. But even players that do try to to teamwork and do more than just 1337 killing sometimes can get unlucky, like spending 10 mins to move to a good position to overwatch a flag and when he is almost there the enemy just cap that flag and the next one in less than 5 min leaving you in the middle of nowhere with no transport, if this happens, a good player will look as useless as a noob even though this happened due to bad luck/bad decision and cuz he was selfish.

The point is, the sniper has a bad fame and anyone who takes it will be considered a noob unless he can prove otherwise and even the good player can be totally useless to his team for most of the round due to a bad decision/ bad luck. So I think the kit should get the a radio with only the abilty to spot things so all the team can see what he is actually doing for his team if possible make sniper spots have a diferent color. Or maybe we could remove/disable the sniper kits on the next release and bring it back in the release after the next just to check how it plays and maybe luckly take away the interest of that 1337kid on this mod.

[Wo0Do0]

If you want to be a sniper than create or join a sniper squad. Most other squads are either armor or infantry squads which goes into close quarter battles which the sniper sucks at. A sniper is always a liability when working with infantry squads and that's why people hate snipers joining there squads. They want better squad support roles such as medics, riflemen specialists, AR, LAT, Gernadier. Anything that will assist them in there objectives which is not sitting 200m waiting for somebody but rather assaulting objectives and getting into close quarter combat.

Nobody is saying snipers aren't usefull, just so long as if you want to pick a sniper join the sniper or recon team.

If you are a sniper refrain from posting on the forums, the odds are against you, God Bless

[badmojo420]

Gee, I don't like heavy AT, they kill my tanks, lets remove the AT classes. And tow while we're at it. (/sarcasm)

Snipers are a part of combat. Just because most of the maps don't require you to fire at targets over 600m away, doesn't mean they're useless.

I think a large cause of this misconception that snipers are wasted space, is that regular players are oblivious to the sniper saving their lives. When a heavy AT takes out the tank that was raping your squad, everyone cheers and thanks the HAT dude. But, when a sniper drops the forward air controller and the aircraft stops raping your team, people just assume the aircraft returned to main for rearm, or maybe the AA guy killed it. That measly little 1 kill on the snipers score might look insignificant, but it just prevented losses for your team.

[0331SgtSpyUSMC]

Gee, I don't like heavy AT, they kill my tanks, lets remove the AT classes. And tow while we're at it. (/sarcasm)

Snipers are a part of combat. Just because most of the maps don't require you to fire at targets over 600m away, doesn't mean they're useless.

I think a large cause of this misconception that snipers are wasted space, is that regular players are oblivious to the sniper saving their lives. When a heavy AT takes out the tank that was raping your squad, everyone cheers and thanks the HAT dude. But, when a sniper drops the forward air controller and the aircraft stops raping your team, people just assume the aircraft returned to main for rearm, or maybe the AA guy killed it. That measly little 1 kill on the snipers score might look insignificant, but it just prevented losses for your team.

Ha ha I brought it up plenty of times, but apparently if you are killing stuff with a sniper kit you are not using your kit properly lol But I agree a 110% with you. Just because you don't see him do anything, it does not mean sniper is being useless. I said it before and say it again, as long as you are reducing enemies tickets, you are contributing to teams effort.

Just think for a second how many tickets wasted by blue medics who only care for their sq and no one else. It is their indifference and selfishness that causes entire squads to re-spawn and FOB or back at main, when all it would take is one stab with epipen in downed medic from another sq. I don't see anyone complaining or trying to fix that.

[killonsight95]

the medic problem can't be fixed and i have never really found that problem if you use mumble medics will be able to find you easier and come to you quicker otherwise 90% of the time they don't know if you've given up or are dead dead or even if your there. Also i've found that snipers actualy hardly do anythign 90% of the time i've been in sniper squads before and been a sniper myself and i find the kit is not needed at all, i myself feel like i'm wasting time as a sniper. But i can see how much damage a H-AT does since there are less enemy vehicals but i see no noticable differance from a sniper thna if a marksmen in a squad did the same job but also moved with the squad, snipers are not needed and 99% of the time attract players that will waste the kit, therfore the kit is useless i'd rather have a dedicated spotter on a hill than a spotter that is distracted by killing with the sniper rifle.

[0331SgtSpyUSMC]

How would you go in situation where the spotter on the hill can see lets say a TOW and a AA being active, you can see that your friendlies advancing on that position, but you are just too far away to hit him or even make him concerned about you shooting at him. Now lets say on top of that you are not in the server where mumble is used, or simply don't have enough time to warn your friendly APC or a full chopper of teammates. It would be pretty stupid to send CAS in on a locations with hot AA. I agree that you do have lots of downtime playing as a sniper, but when those moments do come, your teammates will never know that you saved them tickets by preventing loss of friendly assets.
But as mentioned by numerous people before, every single kit can be useful or useless it's all up to the players and the team leadership. If sniper goes away I'm willing to bet anything that you will still see people in the hills but with AR's or marksmen rifles taking even more already scarce manpower from the battlefield. So what if they loose kits to enemy, so does every other kit can be lost. But if they can prevent certain things from happening even if I can't see it with my own eyes, they will have my support, and if they would have the ability to spot things for everyone else to see on the map, that would be just great.

I don't want to offend anyone and I apologize in advance if I do, but to me it seems like the people who complain about snipers, either got killed one too many times by one, or blame the sniper for not "doing his job" when they got blown away by a TOW/AA or just plain infantry on the roof of some building while not paying attention.

[Murphy]

Just last night I was able to sneak right up on a sniper, 2-3 bursts and he was ragdolling on a tree. I asked the squad if anyone wanted the SMLE, but no takers. That's when this topic popped into my head. So slightly out of character, and based entirely on curiosity I kept the sniper weapon, and played exactly as if I were an AR. The settle time on deployed AR isn't far off (might be same) as a Sniper rifle, so I did my normal deal and repositioned to take on incoming threats. I managed to rack up 2-3 kills less then 100meters off, and a good 6-7 around 250-300. We lost the hill and mounted an attack to take it back, the whole time we were advancing I was no further then 50 meters to the squads flank giving them accurate, and deadly support fire.

Snipers used in inf squads are surprisingly effective if you actually stick near your squad. At one point the AR and a rifleman had 3 enemies pinned in the open but couldn't get them. Luckily we had a trusty sniper to take 3 shots and drop 3 baddies. I ended the round with a score of 14-1, not playing like a lonewolf I had dropped (to later re-acquire) the sniper kit to attempt to revive my squad more then once (failed the last time ofc).

So maybe I should have taken a video of how overwhelming a sniper can be when he operates with infantry as opposed to simple being against the thought of 5 other guys walking around with you. Next time you want to be a truly elite sniper stick with a squad, you might be surprised at how many kills you get. It proved to be more effective then the enemies attempt at lone-wolfing, which resulted in giving me his sniper rifle 10 minutes into the round.

[killonsight95]

couldn't a marksmen have achevied the same results there murphy?

[DeltaFart]

ONly time I ever take a sniper is on Insurgency maps, and thats to roam around looking for concentrations of enemies, report to commander, and watch them, if more come out of that area, I'll report it as a suspected cache area, and when people come by to deal with it, I'll provide support and intel as I move in
I never leave without a lift by a squad, and I never leave without a couple team mates as spotters and covering me
BUt still you can't fix the people behind the key board...

[Murphy]

couldn't a marksmen have achevied the same results there murphy?

Yes, a marksmen could achieve the same results had I taken it. I think that goes to further the point that it's how people are using the kit as opposed to the kit itself. Had I been inclined to start with marksman I could easily have supported the squad in the exact same manner, but the men with the marksman/sniper kits were probably off in their own squad being 1337. I did not aim for high K-D, my goal was to ensure the security and survival of my squad, and that right there is the difference between a good sniper and a lone-wolf.

It would be a disappointment to lose such a powerful kit simply because it has this stigmata about it, if it came to pass that the sniper kit is in fact removed we would be limited to one weapon with the capabilities to reach out and peel wigs. This might result in players singling out marksmen as useless, and incapable of turning the tide of battle.

I don't know how much further on a limb I can go to try to provide solid evidence that the sniper kit is indeed useful in the hands of someone willing to use it accordingly, but it seems I'm not the only one who would miss the kit.

[Arnoldio]

I think SF kit would be better than Sniper because sniper can be only used for sniping from a distance while SF can operate behind enemy lines and act as normal infantry, so 2 roles in one opposed to the snipers 1 role only.

[HAAN4]

I never liked snipers anyway, AR kits do more destrution and mayhen that then,

the only point of Sniper being a killer, is that it's silent, but if you are good in RUN embarasing acuracy of sniper shooters, you can easy get out they range and even engage in CQC, so he is dead.

whictout, or whict sniper kit's, it's no point, because all weopows are for kiling instead of spoting i could spot whicht whatever kit i got, what make me ANGER is that he is there making shiet istead of be in the front line, where people kill, people die, but make the land the team has taked over by BLOOD stiil OURS!,

that is what convetional wars is to be, take it! in the name of you coutry. and snipers are no good to it.

[Murphy]

You seem to believe that a sniper rifle can't hit anything closer then 600 meters, when clearly it can drop someone at any range. Should you need to shoot and scoot snipers have pistols, but other then that a sniper can drop someone as close as 20 meters (even taking less time to settle).

At this point I'm starting to feel this thread is taking the same disposition as most infantry have against snipers in real life. Everyone wants their blood, but they only deliver the blood of the enemy.

Also I'm curious as to which other kit (Excluding SL ofc) is capable of calling in CAS? Seems like the spotter role is filled rather nicely by a sniper, so even if one were inclined to remain well back and not fire a sniper could still have a massive impact on enemy advances while not registering a single kill for himself.

[BlackwaterSaxon]

I never liked snipers anyway, AR kits do more destrution and mayhen that then,

the only point of Sniper being a killer, is that it's silent, but if you are good in RUN embarasing acuracy of sniper shooters, you can easy get out they range and even engage in CQC, so he is dead.

whictout, or whict sniper kit's, it's no point, because all weopows are for kiling instead of spoting i could spot whicht whatever kit i got, what make me ANGER is that he is there making shiet istead of be in the front line, where people kill, people die, but make the land the team has taked over by BLOOD stiil OURS!,

that is what convetional wars is to be, take it! in the name of you coutry. and snipers are no good to it.

I understood about three lines of that. The points you brought up involved the inaccuracy of players when using the sniper kit, not the sniper kit being a problem.

People seem to be misunderstanding the point of a sniper squad as opposed to a lone sniper. The lone sniper is for killing or for spotting, as he cant do both at the same time, the two man sniper team means that you have the accuracy and firepower of the sniper, coupled with the expertise of your spotter, whatever class he may be.

The sniper is fine, and the majority of the arguments against them seem to be that they have no merit on PR battlefields, even though there have been countless posts explaining the merits of them, the counterarguments being "Well, you can do that with any class", a flawed argument based around people not liking how others act in public servers, also known as whining.

[Joe_Pineapples_ABC]

I am deeply ambivalent on the desire to remove the sniper rifle.

As a player I spend 90% of my time as an infantry squad leader and players who want the sniper rifle are the bane of my life. A player in my squad who grabs the sniper rifle without being told too earns himself a warning and is told to retake his original kit or a more appropriate kit, if they argue and tell me how brilliant they are with the sniper kit they earn a flea in their ear and a swift kick from the squad.

However, that said, there are numerous times when a sniper rifle adds greatly to the effectiveness of an infantry squad, I’m thinking particularly about a squad on defence or attacking fixed positions across open ground. However when I tell a squad member to get the kit in these situations, lo and behold, all kits have been issued and you can bet it’s to some idiot who grabbed the kit at the first possible opportunity only to promptly lose it and probably the only logi truck as well by rushing the frontline as quickly as he could with no thought for the team.

As for the recon role, while there are probably players who fulfil this role well, the usual lack of a commander and the lack of a radio for marking targets without one, make this reliant on chat messages which are often missed.

The kit seems bring out the worst in some people, a selfish me, me attitude where camping for leet long range kills and high K/D ratios are all that’s important, even though they often play little or no role in the ultimate outcome of the match. I particularly hate seeing snipers as squad leaders in full infantry squads, these people I would cheerfully shot in the back.

Still, I don’t believe the sniper rifle should be removed. With the sniper rifle its not a case of “Don’t hate the playa, hate the game”, but it is most defiantly a case of Don’t hate the game, hate the player.

I hope some of the people who constantly grab the sniper rifle read some of this thread and realise that their behaviour annoys large sections of the community, even leading to discussions about whether their “precious” rifle should be removed from the game completely. Then again these guys probably don’t read the forums.