What has happened to PR?

Post your feedback on the current Project Reality release (including SinglePlayer).
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Tartantyco
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Tartantyco »

Alex6714 wrote:This is one of the problems really. I´d like to see the general opinion if the TG regulars spread out and played on random servers for a week. There may be more players overall, but lets see how the quality of play works out.
How about other servers provide the same kind of community as TG does instead? Reality Teamwork had it, it's not hard to replicate, it just takes a tiny bit of effort from admins. Don't blame TG for being the server they are.
Because the argument is invalid imo, get the 64 guys from that game and put them in VBF2, BC2, CSS or whatever and I am betting you´ll see similar levels of communication and teamwork.
I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. A selection of teamwork oriented players working together on a selection of games? CERN must be informed!
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Alex6714
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Alex6714 »

Tartantyco wrote:How about other servers provide the same kind of community as TG does instead? Reality Teamwork had it, it's not hard to replicate, it just takes a tiny bit of effort from admins. Don't blame TG for being the server they are.
Not blaming TG at all, its a good place to play. Takes minimal effort perhaps, but Somehow isn´t common.

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. A selection of teamwork oriented players working together on a selection of games? CERN must be informed!
Exactly. So its the people playing, not the gameplay, nor the severe limits to force teamwork, etc etc.
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google
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by google »

I find it noteworthy that in each of Jigsaw's examples, that faction rarely loses that map (except maybe Dragonfly).
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Jigsaw
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Jigsaw »

google wrote:I find it noteworthy that in each of Jigsaw's examples, that faction rarely loses that map (except maybe Dragonfly).
Well that's a balance issue (which I disagree with), nothing to do with the quality of teamwork.
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Tartantyco
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Tartantyco »

Alex6714 wrote:Exactly. So its the people playing, not the gameplay, nor the severe limits to force teamwork, etc etc.
No. In PR teamwork is required, it requires forethought, there are consequences to your actions, an improvement in teamwork has a massive impact on the outcome of the game, etc. That is not the case with the other games you listed where a succession of 1v1s is the norm and teamwork will only go so far as to indulge you in the occasional 3v1 or some such. The strategic and tactical options available to you in PR through teamwork are massive compared to those other games. The 'severe limits' as you put it are there to provide the gameplay that PR offers as well as penalize a lack of teamwork. I've already gone through this a few pages back, you have to understand that you can't get the gameplay you're looking for while enjoying the comfort and conveniences of COD or BC2.
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mat552
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by mat552 »

Tartantyco wrote:you can't get the gameplay you're looking for while enjoying the comfort and conveniences of COD or BC2.
Actually, you can. TG had teamwork long before BF2 came out, Apophis founded TG on the Primer, a set of ideals that you can have teamwork in any game, that respect for your fellow gamer means you can slow things down and play intelligently.

You have to be willing to work hard though, you have to have extremely dedicated admins, and players who give a damn. You have to be willing to accept the fact that there will be players who don't want teamwork, but want to play on your server or in your mod. You don't have to legislate teamwork in via code, you have to thin the base.

Nowhere is it written in unchangeable stone that you must force people to play the way you want. I think part of the root of the nostalgia in this community is that "way back when", players had so much..freedom. We could do so much, anything we wanted, most of it did wind up mirroring real life tactics, not because the devs had in place mechanisms to force us to, but because the tools and equipment we had lent itself to realistic tactics.

That picture someone posted of the BH gunner with 100+ kills, if you wind up in a place where you have given yourself superior firepower and the high ground, you will do a LOT of damage, that's the nature of war. That's reality. There may be some exaggeration in the specific rates of damage, but the final concept comes through unscathed; protect yourself from threats or suffer the consequences.

We are railroaded a little in PR. It's nowhere near as bad as some people claim, but there are definitely a lot of mechanisms in place to make sure we play a specific way.

(One tiny other thing please don't hate on me for this, there is no strategy in PR rounds, it isn't big enough. Tactics wins battles, strategy wins wars. There are no wars in PR (PRT aside, and I have no idea how that works), it's all a series of battles.)
Players might be hardcoded, but that sure doesn't seem to stop anybody from trying.


The only winning move is not to play. Insurgency, that is.
MikeDude
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by MikeDude »

'[R-MOD wrote:Jigsaw;1412278']

Here's a different screenshot from the same game, withdrawing having just taken down a cache in the outer edge of the city. Just out of shot are two APCs covering our withdrawal:

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That attack is on this video, you can also see the withdraw.
[XFIRE]30ce72[/XFIRE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is another video of a attack on the Village, same round.
[XFIRE]30cf0a[/XFIRE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is one inside the base after pulling back, waiting for intell, reloading and chatting while the squad leaders discuss the tactic on the new cache. Same round.
[XFIRE]30ce39[/XFIRE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was no event or anything, just a regular evening PR on TG.
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cyberzomby
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by cyberzomby »

mat552 wrote:Your post
But what Tartan also said is that in the other games where you can use teamwork, it probably will not be much more as to "gang up" on people who are not using teamwork. Whilst in PR there are a plethora of things that open up gameplay wise with teamwork :)
Tartantyco
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Tartantyco »

mat552 wrote:Actually, you can.
Read my post again. No one has ever claimed that teamwork is exclusive to PR, what has been said is that teamwork is vital in PR, as opposed to the other

(One tiny other thing please don't hate on me for this, there is no strategy in PR rounds, it isn't big enough. Tactics wins battles, strategy wins wars. There are no wars in PR (PRT aside, and I have no idea how that works), it's all a series of battles.)
Methinks thou doth not know the meaning of the word strategy.

Now I would like you to point out where PR 'railroads' any action.
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FuzzySquirrel
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by FuzzySquirrel »

ok. TG Teamwork is 70% better then most servers. All you guys with great tw games and awesome stories, Go play on the other servers. Try getting a good game of TW on TAR or HOG. You wont. Just because the changes work on a High TW server doesn't mean they are working well on other servers.
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Hfett
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Hfett »

FuzzySquirrel wrote:ok. TG Teamwork is 70% better then most servers. All you guys with great tw games and awesome stories, Go play on the other servers. Try getting a good game of TW on TAR or HOG. You wont. Just because the changes work on a High TW server doesn't mean they are working well on other servers.
Yeah that is the point i was talking about.

Logistic works great when there is teamwork going on.

But, if a smacktard squad grab's all the logistic vehicles, your team is screwd no matter how good the other 25+ players are.

That is why i sugested alowing SL's to build fob's (just the Fb without tow or anything else) without supply crates, that way you could still have fun on a server where 1 squad fucked the logistic vehicles.
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Oskar
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Oskar »

TG, although being a very good server with good teamwork regularly, is not the only place in PR to find teamwork. Lately though, that "outside of TG" teamwork has declined, when Reality Teamwork went down, and interest in other, following Mumble Teamwork servers declined.

In my opinion, one should not cater to the people who don't play the game "right" too much. Let server admins take care of such matters and we will have a better game as a result.

I would urge all players to not be so hesitant to play and try their best to use teamwork on other servers too. I try to do my best to make the team and my squad work together as well as is possible even on servers where true teamwork is not a very regular occurance.
FuzzySquirrel wrote: Try getting a good game of TW on TAR or HOG. You wont.
It's very much possible. As an example; A week ago, I logged onto HOG Muttrah 24/7 at noon GMT+2, and managed to get a full squad of somewhat inexperienced, but still willing and motivated players to work together wonderfully. We also worked together with another squad, having them stay back and defend the firebase as we attacked.
It's all a matter of putting in the effort and not getting too frustrated. I do admit, it can be difficult.

Many players on these servers have never played one of those great teamwork games on TG or former RT, and won't really know what we're talking about here.
Show them, and get out of your comfort zone! I'm confident that you'll be rewarded for it.
Last edited by Oskar on 2010-08-12 14:32, edited 3 times in total.
Rudd
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Rudd »

Hfett wrote:Yeah that is the point i was talking about.

Logistic works great when there is teamwork going on.

But, if a smacktard squad grab's all the logistic vehicles, your team is screwd no matter how good the other 25+ players are.

That is why i sugested alowing SL's to build fob's (just the Fb without tow or anything else) without supply crates, that way you could still have fun on a server where 1 squad fucked the logistic vehicles.
that would somewhat remove the supply lines dynamic we have atm

though perhaps we could consider alternate ways to set up a FB?

e.g. if you are near a APC?
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FuzzySquirrel
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by FuzzySquirrel »

Wrestlers_Konglisch wrote:
It's very much possible. As an example; A week ago, I logged onto HOG Muttrah 24/7 at noon GMT+2, and managed to get a full squad of somewhat inexperienced, but still willing and motivated players to work together wonderfully. We also worked together with another squad, having them stay back and defend the firebase as we attacked.
It's all a matter of putting in the effort and not getting too frustrated. I do admit, it can be difficult.
The problem is, PR Requires the whole TEAM to work together, 1-2 squads is easy, but without team cooperation your pretty much done.
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Oskar
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Oskar »

What I'm saying is that it was just me, coordinating all that, and it worked. It was at arguably the worst time of day. If I wasnt there, it wouldn't have happened surely. What if 6 more players with the same mindset would've been there, leading squads and all?
Hfett
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Hfett »

[R-CON]Rudd wrote:that would somewhat remove the supply lines dynamic we have atm

though perhaps we could consider alternate ways to set up a FB?

e.g. if you are near a APC?
That would be a nice adition, and imo, would improve apc's working with infantary squads.
We would see more apc's defending fob's with infantary on other servers like it happen on TG instead of "lone light tanks".




People would still need crates to build defensive stuff like TOW, AA,'s foxwholes etc... so i dont think that would remove the supply line dynamic completly, it would just give us an alternative to build fob's when people screw the logistic vehicles.
Last edited by Hfett on 2010-08-12 15:11, edited 1 time in total.
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mat552
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by mat552 »

Tartantyco wrote:Read my post again. No one has ever claimed that teamwork is exclusive to PR, what has been said is that teamwork is vital in PR, as opposed to the other
My apologies if this is what you took away from that post. I think we misinterpreted each other. I thought your point was that the kind of teamwork exemplified in the best of PR rounds is exclusive to PR, I sought to refute that point.

Tartantyco wrote: Methinks thou doth not know the meaning of the word strategy.
Oh, I thought it was different than tactics, I guess I was wrong. Same thing...?

[quote=""Merriam-Webster"]
Strategy :the science and art of employing the political, economic, psychological, and military forces of a nation or group of nations to afford the maximum support to adopted policies in peace or war (2) : the science and art of military command exercised to meet the enemy in combat under advantageous conditions[/quote]
The second one is much less ambiguous, it specifically notes "Meet the enemy in combat", I take this to mean for the first time, instead of using a word like "reengaging", meaning you are already in combat when strategy takes place.
Merriam-Webster wrote: Tactics: (1) the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat
Maneuvering during combat? Not meet the enemy in combat? This suggests to me the contact has already taken place, ie the battle has started.

[quote="Tartantyco""]
Now I would like you to point out where PR 'railroads' any action.[/quote]

I think I can safely say that vbf2's way of handling flags was much less linear than AAS. Advancing along a predetermined path is kind of how a railroad works.

As far as insurgency goes? The caches have a limited set of points they can appear in, and frequently pick the same ones regardless (as an example when 3-4 of them spawned in village on Archer, resulting in one mortar killing 4-5 caches), you're pretty much guaranteed to take a route that was determined by players in past games as being safer. If you decide to try something new, chances are it will either take you through a nest of enemies set up to ambush the standard paths, or it will take you so far out of the way that by the time you're in position, the people taking the standard paths already killed the cache and escape.

I'm not saying railroading is a bad way to play a game by the way, just pointing out there isn't much leeway in how you can fight. It's a tad like crysis. You can get to the next battle any way you want, but once you get there, you fight a specific way or you lose, because that's how the game works.
Players might be hardcoded, but that sure doesn't seem to stop anybody from trying.


The only winning move is not to play. Insurgency, that is.
SnipeHunt
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by SnipeHunt »

I like the random flag positions on AAS. I don't know if all maps are set up for it... I don't think so.
In refence to the thread title.. I think the developers are playing this as a RPG. So much work in developing new materials/maps/styles that actual gameplay is not as important as the way it is supposed to be played << did that come out right? I think of it as controlling an army in a 3rd person game. You create the vehicles, armies, attacks and YOU tell your little minions what to do, but from their point of view they'd probably say fah-q.

Wondering how much time the VERY involved dev's get to play on the current build? Maybe my theory above is total ****...
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Jigsaw
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Jigsaw »

mat552 wrote:I think I can safely say that vbf2's way of handling flags was much less linear than AAS. Advancing along a predetermined path is kind of how a railroad works.
I really disagree with this.

Vanilla BF2 yes had flags which could be capped in any order but consider the size of the maps in comparison to PR. When you do have to cap flags in order in PR (which itself is a simulation of a moving front in a battle) at the very least you have the freedom, due to map size, to choose where you attack from. There has to be some direction (just look at CnC in the current version) or there will be very little action due to the size of the map.

With regards to insurgency each map has at least a couple hundred different cache locations (afaik) and their selection in-game is completely random. Not a lot that can be done about the scenario you describe with a random system.
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Tim270
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Re: What has happened to PR?

Post by Tim270 »

mat552 wrote:I think I can safely say that vbf2's way of handling flags was much less linear than AAS. Advancing along a predetermined path is kind of how a railroad works.
AAS is vital in the longevity of not only maps but PR. It changes the whole dynamic of the map randomly, making battles vastly different from the last time you played the map in many cases, also means nearly all the map is used.

Linear 'push' style maps usually just end up in horrible choke points (Asad) etc and make for horrible spammy gameplay.
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