[Servers] Appeal to Server-Owners

[Hans Martin Slayer]

Thanks for the offer, i might indeed get back to you on that in the future.

[Zoddom]

stop OT now pls.

I think most of you will agree (after THINKING about it) when i say that we just cant say "its just a game let them have their fun" because this game we are talking about, is about teamwork and realism and new players should at least have a basic knowledge about the vehicle they want to use (like, how do i zoom, what are the weapon types for etc) and tehre are enough ways (manual, co-op, empty servers on lan or inet) to learn this without disturbing gameplay on full 64 palyers teamplay servers. dont say that you dont care about "people wasting assets cause its part of the game", if you dont care then why are you playing this mod???
@gaz:
im glad to finally hear the devs point of view from a dev.
however i got the impression that you might be a bit careless. i know youre having lots of work with the developement, organisation etc and you are doing a very good (BEST!) job. But imho to develop a game of this complexity also means to create clear and strict rules,every game has its rules, i mean chess wouldnt be chess if there werent the rules, and pr would be pr without its rules, p.e. the AAS rules are very clear (though some ppl still fail at it...) but i think PR requires more rules than "cap flag in right order".
I mean admins are executing the rules given by the mod, which are mostly about base rape and giving unknown cache intel to the enemy team i think. if you could establish the asset rule as a real game rule, the devs wouldnt have to do anything because again the admins are the executive and watch that everyone is respecting the rules.

its also an aspect of realism to have one or multiple armor squads which you can contact for support when needed. its just a totally different gameplay without an asset rule, namely a far less realisitc, atmospheric and teamplay oriented gameplay.
the point with the squad limit is just an issue of communication an coordination but you simply can not coordinate a team without asset rules, its jsut not possible.

[BloodBane611]

stop OT now pls.

I think most of you will agree (after THINKING about it) when i say that we just cant say "its just a game let them have their fun" because this game we are talking about, is about teamwork and realism and new players should at least have a basic knowledge about the vehicle they want to use (like, how do i zoom, what are the weapon types for etc) and tehre are enough ways (manual, co-op, empty servers on lan or inet) to learn this without disturbing gameplay on full 64 palyers teamplay servers. dont say that you dont care about "people wasting assets cause its part of the game", if you dont care then why are you playing this mod???

You were a perfect PR player when you started? How many helos/armored vehicles have you gotten blown up? Fact is, everyone has to learn, and the way you learn is by doing stupid **** that gets you killed, typically while sitting in a fairly expensive asset. That's just the nature of PR.

Get over it, it's release time, there are a lot of new players. If you can't work with other people and help them improve, why are you interested in a teamwork based game?

snip....
I mean admins are executing the rules given by the mod, which are mostly about base rape and giving unknown cache intel to the enemy team i think. if you could establish the asset rule as a real game rule, the devs wouldnt have to do anything because again the admins are the executive and watch that everyone is respecting the rules.

its also an aspect of realism to have one or multiple armor squads which you can contact for support when needed. its just a totally different gameplay without an asset rule, namely a far less realisitc, atmospheric and teamplay oriented gameplay.
the point with the squad limit is just an issue of communication an coordination but you simply can not coordinate a team without asset rules, its jsut not possible.

There is not broad agreement that requiring asset named squads is a good idea. I personally find it useful, but there are very many occasions where enforcing it adds nothing to the game - and in fact ends up kicking people who are only trying to help the team. Also, as Gaz tried to make clear above - servers are run and paid for by their owners, and thus they have certain rights in terms of how they run them. In addition, here is no reasonable way that the PR team could go about ensuring that every single server is enforcing squad naming rules, even if it was considered integral to gameplay. Trying to force it on server admins would just make everyone unhappy, and probably accomplish very little.



My suggestion to you is that you find a server that enforces squad naming rules and donate to make sure it keeps running. That way you can ensure you play with a like-minded group whenever you want, and you can even play with the rules you want.

[HeXeY]

I feel that having different servers with different rules is important, as players can choose where to play depending on how they like the rules. Having the rules uniform across all servers could possibly scare away players, depending on how severe the rules are changed compared to what they are used to. Current system is the best, in my eyes

Also I agree with Tim underneath here, if they ask you something, answer them, and possibly throw in that possibly the best tip would be to RTM, possibly include a smiley of some sorts to show that you're kinda telling it in a nice and polite tone (?)

[Tim270]

Yeah I think the worst thing you can do to a new player is call them stupid or tell them to stop playing and go and learn then come back. Simply answering their questions on the spot is much easier for you and for them. The best training is actually playing in a live server.

It takes quite a lot of crashed choppers before you become a decent pilot. It takes a lot of dead tanks before you learn the best spots on the map etc etc.

[Zoddom]

You were a perfect PR player when you started? How many helos/armored vehicles have you gotten blown up? Fact is, everyone has to learn, and the way you learn is by doing stupid **** that gets you killed, typically while sitting in a fairly expensive asset. That's just the nature of PR.

Get over it, it's release time, there are a lot of new players. If you can't work with other people and help them improve, why are you interested in a teamwork based game?

...
when im honest i never had the problem with learning to use asset, cause i learnt every single change step by step with every single patch. but im 100 percent sure that when i would be new and i wouldve tried to fly heli on some MP server and crashed it (and i didnt know the reason why i crashed) i would directly make a lan server and train flying there, simply because its much more comfortable than learing during online play cause i have infinite choppers which wont be stolen, no enemies or admins who are disturbing my training etc.

imo what you said is rubbish (i respect you, dont get me wrong) because when do you ever begin learning something at its last and most difficult level?? you dont drive on the autobahn in your first driving school lesson (at least, not in germany). You dont start playing in online leagues if you are new to CS. it nearly applies to everything you learn taht you learn it in small and comprehendable steps. theres simply no use in learning how to fly chopper on a real server, cause everybody will only flame you and/or kick you, you are ruining the team- and gameplay, waste tickets, and still dont get an idea of what you did wrong.

ok youre right, its release time, i almost forgot that, so i hope everything settles soon.

There is not broad agreement that requiring asset named squads is a good idea. I personally find it useful, but there are very many occasions where enforcing it adds nothing to the game - and in fact ends up kicking people who are only trying to help the team. Also, as Gaz tried to make clear above - servers are run and paid for by their owners, and thus they have certain rights in terms of how they run them. In addition, here is no reasonable way that the PR team could go about ensuring that every single server is enforcing squad naming rules, even if it was considered integral to gameplay. Trying to force it on server admins would just make everyone unhappy, and probably accomplish very little.



My suggestion to you is that you find a server that enforces squad naming rules and donate to make sure it keeps running. That way you can ensure you play with a like-minded group whenever you want, and you can even play with the rules you want.

i got the feeling that you never really played on a (good) server with asset rule. it only ends up in kicking people if theyre complete idiots who would definately Tk for a vehicle and waste choppers just for fun. theres always the option of resigning squadleaders, but the most important fact is that you can communicate with other asset squads and ASK them politely if you may use one of their assets (ofc in your own asset squad) when they dont need it. the way you describe this issue brings up the image of a total unorganized and chaotic server where admins have to kick everyone in order to make the game run smooth.
but in reality its the direct opposite, asset-rule servers are most organized and coordinated, nobody can prove me wrong.

edit:
@tim:
I bet nobody on a live server is going to explain how to fly a chopper to a new player who just crashed at starting up.

[Bringerof_D]

I agree, tired of Gamma squad taking APCs or tank or other things like this

i find this a moot point. It's ok on a more serious or clan oriented server but on pub servers i personally frown upon asset named squads. I mean it's just being selfish. This is a game remember and players are going to want to use assets. Especially if that asset named squad isn't helping them when they call for it. I also feel it's perfectly fine for multiple tanks to be used for different tasks and working independently in a 32 v 32 and 4km area scenario anyways. It usually works better than having all the tanks in one area gunning into the same zone then getting taken out by one jdam or one gary/big red anyways

I mean how fair is it that on a public server where you're just dickin around racking up kills anyways, that 2 guys get to use all 3 tanks just because they named their squad after it first?

remember that asset named squads isn't a game feature, the server admins have no responsibility to enforce that a rule. I mean if you think about it anyways the whole thing started with some selfish dude who wanted to always have a tank ready for him when he died in the first one. I've never even heard of an asset named squad till long after i started PR, and you know what the explanation was when i asked about the rule?

"it's because we're tank squad, we need to have a tank ready for when we die."

[Zoddom]

i find this a moot point. It's ok on a more serious or clan oriented server but on pub servers i personally frown upon asset named squads. I mean it's just being selfish. This is a game remember and players are going to want to use assets. Especially if that asset named squad isn't helping them when they call for it. I also feel it's perfectly fine for multiple tanks to be used for different tasks and working independently in a 32 v 32 and 4km area scenario anyways. It usually works better than having all the tanks in one area gunning into the same zone then getting taken out by one jdam or one gary/big red anyways

I mean how fair is it that on a public server where you're just dickin around racking up kills anyways, that 2 guys get to use all 3 tanks just because they named their squad after it first?

remember that asset named squads isn't a game feature, the server admins have no responsibility to enforce that a rule. I mean if you think about it anyways the whole thing started with some selfish dude who wanted to always have a tank ready for him when he died in the first one.

*be patient be patient be patient*
okay. one thing: if you want to play a game where public servers are full of bobs and playing clanwars is the only thing you can do to play this game the right way, go play vanilla or cs.
PR has ALWAYS been teamplay oriented, tactical, and most important professional. and i have never played a clanwar (if theres something liek that) or taken part in a PRT!!!!
This was one of those attributes of pr i liked most: that you actually could play THIS GAME on public servers, and not just spawn-run-kill-die against some "pub-noobs".

when i read your comment i thought it could be a comment about vanilla imHo.

edit:

"it's because we're tank squad, we need to have a tank ready for when we die."

thats total b****hit. squad asset rule is about team organisaton it has nothing to do with being selfish.
being selfish would mean that you have a 2 man locked asset squad and another asset squad opens and you say "no double squads, we are the only tank squad" and dont engage in a polite discussion about how to use the assets best.

i remember that the reason why some old maps have been removed is that they didnt fit to gameplay anymore.
and thats the same reason how asset rule was born and got accepted. in former times you just didnt need asset squads cause there were either not many people on the servers or enough assets for everyone or not enough assets to use them in an organized way AND most important because the former maps just enforced a different sort of gameplay.

[SamEEE]

You end up with a bunch of 2 man squads leaving the rest of the team without a place to fit.

I once joined a squad and complied with the rule - called my squad Mil-28 Havok then got booted for 'Teamswapping'. Really the admins (or their mates) wanted that asset for themselves.

[Bringerof_D]

*be patient be patient be patient*
okay. one thing: if you want to play a game where public servers are full of bobs and playing clanwars is the only thing you can do to play this game the right way, go play vanilla or cs.
PR has ALWAYS been teamplay oriented, tactical, and most important professional. and i have never played a clanwar (if theres something liek that) or taken part in a PRT!!!!
This was one of those attributes of pr i liked most: that you actually could play THIS GAME on public servers, and not just spawn-run-kill-die against some "pub-noobs".

when i read your comment i thought it could be a comment about vanilla imHo.

edit:

thats total b****hit. squad asset rule is about team organisaton it has nothing to do with being selfish.
being selfish would mean that you have a 2 man locked asset squad and another asset squad opens and you say "no double squads, we are the only tank squad" and dont engage in a polite discussion about how to use the assets best.

i remember that the reason why some old maps have been removed is that they didnt fit to gameplay anymore.
and thats the same reason how asset rule was born and got accepted. in former times you just didnt need asset squads cause there were either not many people on the servers or enough assets for everyone or not enough assets to use them in an organized way AND most important because the former maps just enforced a different sort of gameplay.

what does sharing assets have anything to do with spawning in and running around like an idiot? Organization does little if that organized squad does little to work with the rest of the team. I've seen Transport heli squads just use the choppers as a kamikaze wave. And no, regardless of how you feel about it the whole concept was based around selfishness, it may have evolved now and are used by people who just want more organization. but at it's core that's how it started.

Now i'm not saying it's a bad rule, i'm just saying you shouldn't be so harsh on the people who dont follow it. Ask them politely to give your asset back, if not then talk to the admin, otherwise wait for him to die. If i run a tank squad and theres an extra tank, i'm too busy with my squad doing one task or another and another squad needs tank support somewhere else, then i let them take it. a) we might not make it in time b) that objective might be crucial to victory 5 minutes down the road.

also i feel very insulted that you would even suggest that i play like a vanilla noob. please, thats very inappropriate for these forums, we're all mature people here and none of us want to be called nilla noobs.

[mat552]

...
edit:
@tim:
I bet nobody on a live server is going to explain how to fly a chopper to a new player who just crashed at starting up.

I will. I will and anyone who dares refer to themselves as a pilot had damned well better be willing to as well, especially right after a new release.

In fact, I'm willing to bend over backwards to the point things start breaking if the prospective pilot is willing to learn, because thats how I was taught, and that's how I learned to have fun. If you're too good to let new players make mistakes, you simply won't have what it takes to enjoy the mod on a public server, ever, because you'll either be frustrated with those below you, or you'll frustrate those above you in skill.

I concede there is a point at which you stop letting them try for the round and take over, but that point is a long time over just once or twice. Let's face it, you probably won't do any better over the long run than they will.

All of this applies doubly to armor, which doesn't face the threat of losing the asset nearly as fast or spectacularly as an aircraft.

[Celestial1]

Zoddom, the rules at TG means that anyone can take any asset. Commanders can overturn that, by restricting anyone on the team but who he decides is most competent.

It means that you don't have greedy admins kicking people so they can use an asset, it means you don't have an incompetent squad sitting in the assets all round. People can take an asset you aren't using: that's fine, because you're not using it. You'll get over it, and even then most players will ask before taking it. People generally name their squads to show that they are going to use the asset, but it's not required.


I can tell you now with utmost confidence that this rule is better than yours in every way, and you don't have to agree. But what if I told you that every server had to use this rule, because I think it's so much better? Wouldn't that seem stupid to you?

Yeah, it would. Everyone has a right to choose their own rules, and for us to infringe on that is inconsiderate.

[BloodBane611]

i got the feeling that you never really played on a (good) server with asset rule. it only ends up in kicking people if theyre complete idiots who would definately Tk for a vehicle and waste choppers just for fun. theres always the option of resigning squadleaders, but the most important fact is that you can communicate with other asset squads and ASK them politely if you may use one of their assets (ofc in your own asset squad) when they dont need it. the way you describe this issue brings up the image of a total unorganized and chaotic server where admins have to kick everyone in order to make the game run smooth.
but in reality its the direct opposite, asset-rule servers are most organized and coordinated, nobody can prove me wrong.

Tell that to TG regulars. There are only 2 servers on which I have regularly seen widespread mumble use - TG and Pelitutka. TG's only asset rules are that the sitting commander can assign them, and yet it consistently has the best teamwork I've ever seen. Believe what you want, squad-name rules are not integral to playing PR.

Fact is, I've been kicked off UKWF for taking a BTR from muttrah main because my squad was not properly named. It didn't bother the admin that no one else on the team had an APC squad, or that all the APCs were still at main . I've been kicked off servers with the same ruleset for similar reasons - time and again, I am pressed to see the point. Yes, if there is a named squad, I'm more than willing to give them the asset - I honestly don't want it! I'd much prefer to go infantry than go out and get shot up in an expensive asset - but an APC sitting in main does no one any good, and several APCs sitting in main is a sign that the team is going to lose. I'm really uninterested in playing on servers where the admin spends any amount of time checking to make sure that your squad name matches your assets.

Legalistic rules like this get in the way of good gameplay, and end up kicking good players who have valid reasons for not going to a new squad - desire to directly communicate with infantry SMs, doing a service to the team in order to help win even when they don't want to, etc.

[Zoddom]

I can tell you now with utmost confidence that this rule is better than yours in every way, and you don't have to agree. But what if I told you that every server had to use this rule, because I think it's so much better? Wouldn't that seem stupid to you?

and I can tell you that it would be even better if there was a squad asset rule! because then, even without a commander everything would be organized, and if you would combine these two sorts of asset management it would be best i think. (-> no commander, first named squad has priority [NOT THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT] on the asset -> and commander is the highest instance to assign assets

i never played on TG causse of bad ping, so i didnt know there was some rule like that. i lke the idea and its realistic, too. but imho theres no way to get around a regular asset rule.

Fact is, I've been kicked off UKWF for taking a BTR from muttrah main because my squad was not properly named. It didn't bother the admin that no one else on the team had an APC squad, or that all the APCs were still at main .

well, taking assets is not about who has them and who dont. If you really had a plan for these apcs, then you shouldve renamed your squad and everybody would know WHOs got the apc so support can be requested properly.
taking an asset without a proper squadname makes identifying friendly vehicles and communicating with them incredibly hard.

[Celestial1]

and I can tell you that it would be even better if there was a squad asset rule! because then, even without a commander everything would be organized, and if you would combine these two sorts of asset management it would be best i think. (-> no commander, first named squad has priority [NOT THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT] on the asset -> and commander is the highest instance to assign assets

But that's not even what I'm getting at here.

Both of us have a different opinion on which is a better rule. If I told you that you had to follow my favorite rule because of my opinion, I'm now forcing you to agree if you want to play on any server.
Just like you shouldn't force your opinion on me, I won't force my opinion on you.



Unrelated to that, the first named squad having priority but not the absolute right makes no sense. They have may "priority", but I can grab the vehicle if I want since they don't have the absolute right to deny me from using it... so what does "priority" even do?
On TG, CO is the only one that holds the right to assign any assets, which means that no one can hog the assets unless someone believes that they deserve use of the assets, and that person goes commander (and as soon as they leave, the assignment no longer holds, which means that no "friends" can go CO to allow them to hog the asset).

There has not once been a time I've seen this system outright fail; admins kick for wasting of assets so the worst they can do is be a little useless at times. People learn to suck it up if some guy is going to use the vehicle, it's not a big deal, you'll find something else to do.

Also, communicating with a friendly vehicle is as simple as pulling out your radio and using the "NEED APC" option, or asking over mumble SL.

[Tim270]

@tim:
I bet nobody on a live server is going to explain how to fly a chopper to a new player who just crashed at starting up.

I am more than willing to help people learn like this, I try to give as many tips as possible when I have any pilots in the same squad as me anyhow as I would consider myself a good pilot.

It may be unfortunate that someone has flipped a chopper, but it is much more useful for them and us to tell them what they did wrong and help to do it right next time not just shout at them for being terrible.

I recall Muttrah v1 pretty much being impossible to actually get a chopper to land after the warm up delay was added to choppers as it is such a big change, if someone has come from vanilla to PR flying they are not going to understand the warm-up mechanics at all. Which is not their fault.

And in all honestly it is overzealous server admins that ruin playtime much more than someone flipping a chopper or vehicle. It would be a better use of their time kicking people who say 'alt f4' everytime a new person asks how to do something rather than kicking someone for wasting assets.

Having someone in your squad explain to you through voip exactly how to take-off safely and how to fly safely is way way more useful to that person than just kicking them/telling them to read Manuel/telling them to go play co-op. And as more experienced players I think that is our duty to keep PR retaining new players.

[Furst]

Zoddom.. you got me a bit confused now. i guess youre also from germany, since that info next to your name indicates it and i really have to admit that ive never seen you playing on any german or even european server, maybe your ingame name is some other or sth.

what i wanna say is, that many (german) communities, including their servers, definitely also share those kinda aims that you are looking for and propagate. i wonder why you dont get in touch with those?

i mean, posting here at the modification forum might not be the best addressee for your requests, cause the problem/s youre talking about concern a very different level -> the players, individual server rules and daily gameplay.

like i already said in this thread, there are (german) communities which offer things like trainings, even own training maps, 101 lessons, !squad asset rules! and open minded people who are also open for suggestions and discussions!

[Bringerof_D]

But that's not even what I'm getting at here.

Both of us have a different opinion on which is a better rule. If I told you that you had to follow my favorite rule because of my opinion, I'm now forcing you to agree if you want to play on any server.
Just like you shouldn't force your opinion on me, I won't force my opinion on you.

best way to end it, dont force your ideals on us. I dont mind people taking it seriously and actually using the assets properly and assisting the team, but that is uncommon on most public servers. Usually their sitting someplace useless and racking up points, getting blown up then taking the leftover asset to the same spot to repeat. Now thats not to say it doesnt happen. If everybody's on board then this level of organization really kicks things up a notch

If this rule became built into the game it would completely destroy many aspects of the game. Think about it, If this were to happen, an infantry squad wouldnt be able to grab a humvee because they dont have "humvee" in their name. forgetting of course how complicated it would be to implement.

[Zoddom]

Maybe my comments arent clear to you or being misunderstood ebcause of my bad english skills.
But it seems to me that some of you are some ignorant people who dont want to start thinkging for themselves.
- I dont want to force my "opinion" on anybody, tahts why i posted it in the "Discussion" forum
- Its not even my opinion, its the result i got from logical thinking about the gameplay and whats best for it
- its just not true that admins would ruin the gameplay more than asset-wasting idiots do.
if theres a player who always takes chopper and crashing it, or in case theres no asset rule, takes any vehicle he finds and crashes it, its much more comfortable for YOU and better for the team and gameplay to either warn this palyer to not take any vehicles again or to kick/resign him. thats a fact.
-@bringerof_d: waht? you really think taht an admin would kick an infantry squad for taking a humvee? PLS you cant be serious.
-@furst: i havent played on GIS that often but it seems to me that most german servers have lazy admins and first come first serve rule ... [following in german] ja es kommt mir halt so vor als ob die deutschen admins die server so lafuen lassen dass sie den minimalen arbeitsaufwand haben. generell sind mir die deutschen spieler sowieso nich sehr angenehm weil viele (sehr viele) relativ stumpf spielen und noch vanilla-z?ge im spielstil haben [/german]
-@celestial: you cant be serious either.... that a squad has priority means (to me) that this squad has a guarantee for using its vehicle. if there are more vehicles then they can use, then maybe a 2nd asset squad can take them. cmon its simple.

pls guys, do me the favor of starting thinking logically. PLEASE

edit:
i also wanted to remind you taht this is still an "appeal to server owners". dont forget about that.
i just wanted to make sure that thres no way to get the devs engaging this problem

[Celestial1]

result i got from logical thinking about the gameplay and whats best for it

And that, Zoddom, is what we call an opinion. It is not a fact, it is an opinion.
Suggesting that server admins must enforce this rule is trying to force that opinion upon us.

No server admin should be told what rules they can/cannot have; you can suggest that they should have this rule all you want, but you can't tell them that they have to have it.

-@celestial: you cant be serious either.... that a squad has priority means (to me) that this squad has a guarantee for using its vehicle. if there are more vehicles then they can use, then maybe a 2nd asset squad can take them. cmon its simple.

Okay, so that "Priority squad" loses and asset and can demand the other squad to bring theirs back, even if that "Priority squad" is useless. Or the "priority squad" stops using the asset but keeps saying they'll come back for it, effectively leaving the team without the asset being used.
It's just bringing in all the problems I've been talking about the entire time back, for no good reason.



People are thinking logically, Zoddom, you're not listening.