[Servers] Appeal to Server-Owners

[Zoddom]

And that, Zoddom, is what we call an opinion. It is not a fact, it is an opinion.
Suggesting that server admins must enforce this rule is trying to force that opinion upon us.

No server admin should be told what rules they can/cannot have; you can suggest that they should have this rule all you want, but you can't tell them that they have to have it.



Okay, so that "Priority squad" loses and asset and can demand the other squad to bring theirs back, even if that "Priority squad" is useless. Or the "priority squad" stops using the asset but keeps saying they'll come back for it, effectively leaving the team without the asset being used.
It's just bringing in all the problems I've been talking about the entire time back, for no good reason.



People are thinking logically, Zoddom, you're not listening.

NO... im very close to lose my patience.
you DONT think logically. you stick to your thought that you are right, you dont take part in a real discussion, since there are only coming answers who say that i should stop "enforcing"blabalbalalaalblblalbalblab
The priority rule is from a server i play very often on and it says exactly this:
"First named squad has priority on said asset"
If its not clear to you what that means im sorry, then you should ask someone else since im not willing to explain something as simple as this to an adult and healthy person.

and i was NEVER trying to force somebody to use this rule, i was ALWAYS trying to convince as much people as possible of the asset rule.
And what you get as a result of LOGICAL thinking is usually not only an opinion but a fact.

[Furst]

-@furst: i havent played on GIS that often but it seems to me that most german servers have lazy admins and first come first serve rulePLEASE

im not talking (only) about our (GIS+) server, there are many! i dont know if its considered advertising (hopefully not, since its just an example), but you might check the Coffee**** server for example. nice community, good forum, efforts for new players to get into the game by providing information, the possibilty for events to "teach" newbies and so on, availability of mumble, even an asset rule and a huge bunch of good working admins!

did you already try to get in contact with any german community to share your thoughts? simply be that guy who comes up with an idea like you have and convince the community to try it out! it really is that easy. the only thing that may not work is to inspire new players to be interested, thats what some other plans on that in many communities already failed on also. if the people dont want to, they simply dont want to! ...but that often goes along with fearing punishment due to violation of server rules.

but in the end it is not about any of the mentioned servers, its about every server or community to be seen as platform for your own concepts, simply get in touch and start it.

[Bringerof_D]

NO... im very close to lose my patience.
you DONT think logically. you stick to your thought that you are right, you dont take part in a real discussion, since there are only coming answers who say that i should stop "enforcing"blabalbalalaalblblalbalblab
The priority rule is from a server i play very often on and it says exactly this:
"First named squad has priority on said asset"
If its not clear to you what that means im sorry, then you should ask someone else since im not willing to explain something as simple as this to an adult and healthy person.

and i was NEVER trying to force somebody to use this rule, i was ALWAYS trying to convince as much people as possible of the asset rule.
And what you get as a result of LOGICAL thinking is usually not only an opinion but a fact.

and our logical thought process gives us the "fact" that it's not the best option. I love it when in some situations but in others it just doesnt work.

Also a bit if a philosophy lesson here. A "Fact" may have a different dictionary definition to "Opinion" but Even in the world of science "facts" constantly change. Thus a fact is simply an opinion which is more widely accepted. It's like a History book, 90% of it is lies from a global stand point. Cause of ww1, Serbian Nationalist action or the work of a Political Assassin?

- I dont want to force my "opinion" on anybody, tahts why i posted it in the "Discussion" forum

then why is your fist post a plea to every server admin to start enforcing it? If this was genuinely just a discussion it would have started with something along the lines of "what do you think if..."

[Wakain]

it's really a shame that a lot of not truely controversial or even important discussions these days tend to become shouting matches in which one or anothers intellect is questioned (in)directly.

perhaps it's the curse of miscomprehension that comes with participants from around the world for whom english is not their first language, perhaps also it's just a general discourtesy or unreasonableness that comes from staring at a screen instead of talking face to face?

just add a smiley once in a while if you don't intend to do harm:

[Celestial1]

and i was NEVER trying to force somebody to use this rule, i was ALWAYS trying to convince as much people as possible of the asset rule.

STRICT GENERAL PR RULES which have to be on every PR server, p.e. when you get a PR server licence you have to apply that you MSUT use squad asset/squad name rules etc.

Yes, you were. If you did not intend to, it's because of a language barrier.
This whole time you've been implying that you want every server to be forced to use the rule when they sign up for a server license.

And what you get as a result of LOGICAL thinking is usually not only an opinion but a fact.

No, Zoddom, I don't know how else to put this... named asset squads is a personal preference of yours. My personal preference is the rule at TG.

It's an opinion. There's no disputing that, it's not not not not not not not, definitely not a fact. Opinions are not facts, facts are not opinions.
A fact is "There are 15 PR servers with more 60 players right now".
An opinion is "I think that the LAV is better than the new AAV". It doesn't matter if there's a ton of reasons that tell you that the AAV is better, that person can still think that the LAV is better, because it's their opinion.




There is absolutely no way to get around this: What you're saying is an OPINION.
Each of us have an OPINION on what rule is best, what you're saying is NOT a fact.

I don't know how else to put it.

[Zoddom]

im ignoring your coments from now, celestial, theres no use in discussing with you.
edit:

Start another campaign about STRICT GENERAL PR RULES
[...]


so what are your thoughts?

@furst:
okay ill try to start something big

@bringerof:
well, imo trying to convince admins to enforce this rule is different to enforce it, yeah might be language problems, i dont really know.

@wakain:
too true

_________________________________________________________________

im trying to restart this discussion here (and might be adding a poll if possible):

Should an asset rule be a standard rule on every (most) PR servers, yes or no?
something like "on this server, it works very good" is not an argument!

edit:
can someone pls add a poll?
idk how to

[mat552]

Zoddom, if your position is just and true, you should have no problem convincing people that it is such. Throwing up your hands and declaring you're just going to ignore someone because they won't agree with you isn't helpful. I, too, got the implication from the tone of your posts that you desire it to be mandatory to handle asset distribution in a specific way, that isn't Celest deliberately misconstruing your argument, it's how your argument comes across to at least two people, probably more.

If you want to restart the discussion, that's ok by me.

Setting aside the technical side of the argument, that is unfeasible to kick or ban players based on the strings of text correlated with their time in a specific type of vehicle, I must also point out that the argument you're asking me to refrain from "on this server, it works very good" is not only legitimate, but proven to be workable.

In accordance with your direct question: No. It is not desirable to me to see a standard asset rule enforced across all PR servers.

I feel it encourages poor behavior from those with authority and those who's computers load quickly. Evidence can be found anecdotally of these abuses, and is widely documented. I also feel it fosters a sense of entitlement, which has never and can never be a good thing in any populace or community.

Also, only moderators, devs, etc can add polls to a post.

[Oskar]

http://publishren.files.wordpress.com/2 ... =300&h=330
"- Are you coming to bed? - I can't, someone is wrong on the internet!"

I have never found this kind of asset rule (as in OP) to be useful at all. All it has done in my eyes on servers I've played on with this rule is limit players, and made the game less fun. Reserving assets to the person or group of people who essentially loaded in first is both unfair and unnecessary.

The counterargument would be that "noobs" can now roam free and take vehicles and assets how they like. But this argument falls completely flat for reasons which have been brought up numerous times in this thread. And listen, me saying this doesn't mean I don't understand the other side of things: I simply don't agree. If it made sense, I'd agree and I might change my opinion. This is what discussion is about, not about senselessly sticking to one's own preconceptions.

People learn PR by actually playing, for the most part. I know I did. I don't mind new players using assets on a deployment server as long as they are actually willing to learn, aren't wasting them outright, and are following the server rules.


One also has to take into account that this is all a game, and people like to play it in different ways. No one way is better than the other objectively, because it is all about how a person has fun, in the end.

Players are the ones who do teamwork, not squad names. Players who have named their squad to whatever asset they are using are in my experience just as likely or unlikely to give me support and work together with the team as any other.
It IS that simple. If you don't agree, fine. But forcing this view upon servers which obviously already work very well is unnecessary.

Let it be the server owner's responsibily to have his own rules and set forth his own standard of play.

Respectfully,

[Celestial1]

im ignoring your coments from now, celestial, theres no use in discussing with you.

Look, Zoddom, I'm not doing this to f*** with you, I'm not doing it just to argue.

Any natively english speaking person reading your posts will get the feeling that you are saying you want every server to have that asset rule, because of how you are wording things. I'm just trying to explain that to you so that we can maybe get to an understanding here.

I'm also trying to say that you have no right to use the server license as a way to get servers to use the rule. Instead, you should take it up with the server owners themselves, and suggest to them that they add the rule, not try to enforce it on them via the server license. I fully support you campaigning to get servers to employ some sort of asset rule; but you shouldn't be forcing them to have one through the server license.

[Bringerof_D]

im ignoring your coments from now, celestial, theres no use in discussing with you.
edit:



something like "on this server, it works very good" is not an argument!

edit:
can someone pls add a poll?
idk how to

Celestial's points are all valid, he simply doesnt agree with you. you cant ignore an opposing opinion simply because he doesn't agree. its the same as burning books because they teach things that you dont believe in.

Also everything you've used to defend this rule so far has been "because it works well on this server" thats the only explanation that can be acceptable when creating a rule. and you cant deny that. it may not be worded in such a way but everything you've pointed out that was positive happened on a server did it not?

you cant use math or "logic" in creating rules, just like a machine built in a lab might not work so well out in the field. a rule needs to be "field tested" so to speak and the only valid field testing for a rule in an online game is within a server. Logic only works through computers where every variable is set. Logic is 99.99% of the time wrong when coming from a human brain, because humans have preconceived thoughts on matters. to use logic one must be impartial to EVERYTHING.

@celestial: that is very true, in fact if it were enforced via the server licenses that would destroy any chances of experimentation for new variations of rules. which means if it doesn't work we're stuck with it. Good server rules came from servers doing their own thing and finding out what works, then sharing with other servers.

[HeXeY]

im ignoring your coments from now, celestial, theres no use in discussing with you.
He's got valid points, and that is in my opinion childish of you

im trying to restart this discussion here (and might be adding a poll if possible):

Should an asset rule be a standard rule on every (most) PR servers, yes or no?
No! Variation ftw, not everyone wants the same as say you, or me for that matter, that's why you have several servers, with different rules, so you can play on a server that fits your style of playing. It's like that with every game
something like "on this server, it works very good" is not an argument!
Why not? It's an example that shows it works good there, and it might work good elsewhere as well.

edit:
can someone pls add a poll?
idk how to
You can't, only MODs can

Answers in red

[Zoddom]

since celestial was only disputing about my "personal opinion" and that have "no right to enfroce this", there was no use in discussing with him because we wouldve missed the point of this thread.
Some of you are effecting that this discussion is ending in off topic flames. so if you want to deviate from a (imo) very important and interesting discussion, do it somewhere else.

_______


everybody of you shouldve played PR long enough to know what works, what doesnt work and most important what is guaranteeing a constantly good gameplay which fits to PR.
As said, TG is an exception and to argue with the good gameplay on this server doesnt have any use to this discussion, since it is about the differences between Squad-name-asset-rule servers and servers with "first come first serve" rule. TG has its own rule which is obviously a unique one.
I am talking about servers with no asset rule at all. As long as there are one or more persons who are supervising the allocation of assets, its fine imo (as long as this person isnt a dumb retard )
... okay i accommodate you since you are not accepting the thruth.
I know from my experience that servers without any asset rule lower the level of PR to nearly the vanilla ones. any complaints about assets (no matter if its being stolen, crashed, wasted blocked whatever) remain (mostly) completely unanserwed by admins and the only respond you get is:"its first come first serve, im allowed to do this".
And I have more than enough experience to can tell that a squad-asset rule (if its not too strict -> not "NO DOUBLE SQUAD" rubbish) guarantee a constant game quality which does not adulterate the PR feeling and gameplay. to be honest... thats the most important reason why i started this discussion, the times when im loosing the feeling that im actually playing PR are drastically increasing. I jsut want to prevent that the PR community and servers are splitting up and end up in two different games.

Again Im appealing to all server-owners:
Dont let this game "die", at least apply some reduced version of an asset rule, doesnt have to be exactly " squad named after assets"-like, just a new rule which guarantees smooth and serious gameplay.

[Brummy]

Again Im appealing to all server-owners:
Dont let this game "die", at least apply some reduced version of an asset rule, doesnt have to be exactly " squad named after assets"-like, just a new rule which guarantees smooth and serious gameplay.

The squad asset rule kind of enhances teamwork by putting the asset operators together in a squad instead of two or three seperate squads. At TG I am getting annoyed as well by the separate asset squads, but that's partly because of the new release.

I think however that this kind of rule is not at all necessary for better gameplay around the allocation of assets. You claim that servers without asset rules are in general worse than servers with, I agree when it comes to the general picture.

Does the quality of the server however come from this one rule or are there more factors? I believe that while such a rule can be a good help for servers to enhance teamwork, it can also be an utter annoyance on others. On lower quality servers, you will get this arguing no matter what, asset rule or not, and this rule could even worsen the arguments. For example, the asset could be rotting in main while the 'rightful' squad is out in the field, or a certain squad keeps having bad luck with the assets and others cannot claim the asset because of the rule.

I think that when this rule is very much optional. On a good server with good admins and a good player base such a rule is not necessary, but can be used to slightly enhance teamwork. This rule however, does not turn a bad server with ineffective allocation and management of assets into a good one.

[Zoddom]

On lower quality servers, you will get this arguing no matter what, asset rule or not, and this rule could even worsen the arguments. For example, the asset could be rotting in main while the 'rightful' squad is out in the field, or a certain squad keeps having bad luck with the assets and others cannot claim the asset because of the rule.

some of you seem to have problems to understand the practical implementation of this rule.
I have NEVER seen aserver where some one complains about a second asset squad which is taking the first's assets because they are in the field and is locked (ofc). not at all. the squad rule is there to ENHANCE teamwork and gameplay, so if someones opening an asset squad and takes asset which wouldntve been used otherwise, thats the way it should be. IF an asset squad isnt using his assets at all and is not responding to admins/ Sqls, it loses it priority for the asset.
As i said above the "no dublicated squads" rules is total bullsh** imo, it doesnt help the team at all. (and its not the same as the squad asset rule!!! to prevent flaming and OT)

I think that when this rule is very much optional. On a good server with good admins and a good player base such a rule is not necessary, but can be used to slightly enhance teamwork. This rule however, does not turn a bad server with ineffective allocation and management of assets into a good one.

.......... of course, if you have the perfect server everything would be fine. but theres no use in argueing with this.

[Brummy]

some of you seem to have problems to understand the practical implementation of this rule.
I have NEVER seen aserver where some one complains about a second asset squad which is taking the first's assets because they are in the field and is locked (ofc). not at all.

I have.

the squad rule is there to ENHANCE teamwork and gameplay, so if someones opening an asset squad and takes asset which wouldntve been used otherwise, thats the way it should be. IF an asset squad isnt using his assets at all and is not responding to admins/ Sqls, it loses it priority for the asset.

But see it doesn't. It doesn't lose priority at all. One could just argue that he was just about to use that or save it for later or whatever.

As i said above the "no dublicated squads" rules is total bullsh** imo, it doesnt help the team at all. (and its not the same as the squad asset rule!!! to prevent flaming and OT)

The duplicated squad controversy is a direct result of the squad asset rule.

.......... of course, if you have the perfect server everything would be fine. but theres no use in argueing with this.

With good admins you don't need this rule at all. With a good community you don't need this rule at all. You don't need a perfect server for this to work.

The point I'm making is that while the rule can be useful, it is not at all the best solution or a good way to manage assets in my opinion.

[Zoddom]

The point I'm making is that while the rule can be useful, it is not at all the best solution or a good way to manage assets in my opinion.

of course, there are some idiots who just want to make trouble, but thats not the majority.
The number of situations where an asset squad which really doesnt use its assets at all complains about a second asset squad is tiny. On servers with no asset rule, there are definately more people who complain about something what is actually allowed because of the rules.

youre right, with good admins you dont need a rule. but if there was an admin who would manage the assets very good, it wouldnt be "first come first serve". I have to say , that I only want to see those freelance-servers with no rule (which also means no regulation) at all disappearing or at least minimizing. Since the admin would give an asset to a certain squad, its nearly the same as the squad-name rule, the gravest difference is that with the squadname rule its far easier to get a overview p.e. of the available support/transport and where its located right now. and i think when an admin has to manage all assets all the time, it could end up confusing the team and make it hard for them to stay up to date.

edit:
I want to know what the Dev team is thinking about this. As you said, its not your job to set server rules, but i wanted to know what you think would be the best (or a better) solution for asset management, maintaining original PR gameplay and -feeling.
you cannot enforce rules, but you can atleast recommend rules.
so pls, whats your opinion?

[snooggums]

epoch;1471085']

But alas there will never be a Full blown all out blanket server rule due to the fact there is no way the PR DEV team can enforce it. If you are going to have rules like that. You must be able to enforce it. The DEV have no say in the end on how a server is run (well server license but it is limited in what it can be used for). sure the DEV could ask for it. But the end user server owner does not have to do it. It's his/her/their server. They can run it as they see fit.

What he said ^^^

The Dev's opinion has already been posted. There will be no general server rule enforcement, and it is a terrible idea to make mandatory.

[Zoddom]

What he said ^^^
The Dev's opinion has already been posted. There will be no general server rule enforcement, and it is a terrible idea to make mandatory.

thats not what i wanted to know!
i wanted to ask the devs if and which sort of asset rule they recommend!

[Oskar]

You're confusing us. First it's the DEV team you want to ask, and now it's the server admins?

[snooggums]

edit:
I want to know what the Dev team is thinking about this. As you said, its not your job to set server rules, but i wanted to know what you think would be the best (or a better) solution for asset management, maintaining original PR gameplay and -feeling.
you cannot enforce rules, but you can atleast recommend rules.
so pls, whats your opinion?

thats not what i wanted to know!
i wanted to ask the admins if and which sort of asset rule they recommend!

Stop contradicting yourself and then getting angry about it.