C4 wayyyy overpowered

[goguapsy]

Not sure if anyone posted this, but...

Originally posted by [R-DEV]Deer
(Caches being destroyed through walls...)Its not intentional that C4 destroys caches through walls, will be fixed for next patch =) Gameplay wise its way too easy to destroy weaponcaches this way.

We had 3 or 4 pages of discussion saying it was balanced

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f26-pr ... che-2.html

[theRVD]

Well that pretty much sums it up. All I really wanted was a dev opinion, I couldn't find that thread under the bug forum when I looked.

Like I said before, it is way too easy, and I'm glad the DEV team agrees with me.

We're done here.

[Rissien]

AGAIN SOMEONE IS MISSING THE POINT.


Let me lay it out for you:

1. Make squad with two guys. Lock
2. Grab medic and engi kit.
3. Grab a logi or humvee, who cares theres only two of us and we're going to get back 25 tickets amirite.
4. Drive to cache location.
5. Find enemy strongpoint
6. Plant c4 near suspected cache
7. Run
8. Blow. Cache is dead or not. Repeat if neccesary.

Is it so hard to read guys? I understand that if a team is held up in a compound in real life the blufor or whatever force would just blow it up, SURE. BUT IT'S NOT REAL LIFE.

This kind of REAL LIFE BULLSHIT is the kind of things that lead to EXPLOITS. The exploit being any old idiot can just run up and plant C4 on this building. I do it to compounds filled with taliban. IT REALLY IS EASY AND SIMPLE AND COMPLETELY COUNTER INTUITIVE OF THE POINT OF THE MOD.

I'd really like to see a DEV speak out on this.

And I would say its the Insurgent/Talibans fault for not keeping the area covered. Its not hard to expand your defense, redundancy is your friend. Have multiple people covering the overlapping sectors.

[theRVD]

H[=Rissien;1492905']And I would say its the Insurgent/Talibans fault for not keeping the area covered. Its not hard to expand your defense, redundancy is your friend. Have multiple people covering the overlapping sectors.

Yeah, when the cache spawns against an outside wall of the compound, it's the Taliban's fault. You know what else is realistic? The fact that the Taliban chose to hide their weapons cache in such a vulnerable spot.

Let's get real here man, even the devs have gone on record saying it's unintentional, you continue to disagree. The fact of the matter is there are other things in the game that do proportionally the same amount of damage but don't have that kind of affect on the cache. Why does C4 do it? Because it's a bug.

Your expectation of the Taliban/Insurgent's ability to defend the cache is unrealistic - with mortars, air support, inf on the ground, fobs with tows/mgs and vehicles at your disposal, it really isn't hard to clear a compound. When the Taliban get a cache that spawns underground or in an ideal building (which is like, 1 out of 50 at least on Kokan, and worse on Korengal and Archer, almost non-existant for Insurgents) and they have a good position, the US can just say "Screw going in, lets just C4 them! LOlOlOL". Is that balanced? Sorry bud, no it isn't.

Realism vs gameplay. With the goal of teamwork in mind, how can you honestly argue that this is a good thing for PR?

[Bazul14]

Yeah, when the cache spawns against an outside wall of the compound, it's the Taliban's fault. You know what else is realistic? The fact that the Taliban chose to hide their weapons cache in such a vulnerable spot.

Let's get real here man, even the devs have gone on record saying it's unintentional, you continue to disagree. The fact of the matter is there are other things in the game that do proportionally the same amount of damage but don't have that kind of affect on the cache. Why does C4 do it? Because it's a bug.

Your expectation of the Taliban/Insurgent's ability to defend the cache is unrealistic - with mortars, air support, inf on the ground, fobs with tows/mgs and vehicles at your disposal, it really isn't hard to clear a compound. When the Taliban get a cache that spawns underground or in an ideal building (which is like, 1 out of 50 at least on Kokan, and worse on Korengal and Archer, almost non-existant for Insurgents) and they have a good position, the US can just say "Screw going in, lets just C4 them! LOlOlOL". Is that balanced? Sorry bud, no it isn't.

Realism vs gameplay. With the goal of teamwork in mind, how can you honestly argue that this is a good thing for PR?

The effect is not a bug, it was left so intentionally I think, so no bug.

As for the other things, well you seem to live in a fairytale world where it is realistic for 12 people with AKs and LMGs/RPGs/50calls to deny the access or destruction of something to one of the most organized and technologically advanced nations on the face of earth. Because PR has several limitations that prevent the realism from taking over, the C4 was left potent for this situation. IRL that compound would get JDAMed in 15/30 minutes if the US finds good resistance. Since they can't really do that in PR, well get used to it and stop whining.


Also, caches are pretty invulnerable now, so the US needs to either incendiary it or C4 in this case. And it takes time for that. As for the 2 guys with the medic kit and engy, well, if the INS team can not take down that humvee/truck/heli in time, well, too bad.
That is all. You will see in ARMA2 that walls are not bulletproof/tank proof/ jet proof/ rocket proof and so on. There you will be a step closer to reality, and if you are unwilling to go to that length, well, you have chosen the wrong mod to play.

[Rissien]

Bazul, DEVs have already said through walls was not intentional. Only caches ive killed with c4 were directly on it and we did exactly what RVD summed up, minus the through wall part. Grabbed a humvee, bum rushed the thing, killed one guy I through the c4 down ran away blew it and we high tailed out of there before they could even blink.

[Bazul14]

If its a bug, then I did not know, because it makes sense a lot for the C4 to go through walls. Well, in that case I guess they should change it.

[Ford_Jam]

H[=Rissien;1492905']And I would say its the Insurgent/Talibans fault for not keeping the area covered. Its not hard to expand your defense, redundancy is your friend. Have multiple people covering the overlapping sectors.

+1 Rissien.

It's like talking to a brick wall...
"Well maybe you just need to increase your def-" "BAWWW C4 IS BUGGED "

Sorry, but if you're limiting your defense of a cache to the tiny room in which it is situated then you are seriously doing it wrong. A 20m blast radius from a massive pack of explosives is tiny.

[Kain888]

It's like talking to a brick wall...
"Well maybe you just need to increase your def-" "BAWWW C4 IS BUGGED "

It's easy to mock, huh?

I think you're missing the point, we are playing game with fixed positions of cache spawn, you can't blame insurgents for all, and it's easy to say counter it! You can as well say that every time something is broken. C4 not destroying cache from 20m is as well not realistic as lower damage from CAS. It's about the game now, not realism, in real life you wouldn't be fighting your way into basement to throw some inc grenades and run out when cache is exploding.


Keep in ming that the game has to be balanced (in asymmetrical way ofc). Don't knot about you but I have so many not funny rounds as Blufor on Insurgency, because it is damn too easy that it is sometimes ridiculous. Challenge is the thing that makes game fun.

[mat552]

H[=Rissien;1492905']And I would say its the Insurgent/Talibans fault for not keeping the area covered. Its not hard to expand your defense, redundancy is your friend. Have multiple people covering the overlapping sectors.

Would you encourage, say, hacking to shoot through walls like C4 does? Because 18 people, 3 with line of sight on the cache at all times, 5 doing constant unpredictable patrols at 10m intervals, 2 people on opposing fields of view in excess of 400m in any direction were unable to stop a US suicide charge last night on Kokan. Sure, only the combat engineer and officer actually made it to the building from a charge of 10-ish people, and they were both bleeding, but before we could finish chasing the engineer down, he blew the cache from the other side of two walls.

With C4 the way it is, you can defend a cache perfectly and still lose it. Sure life isn't fair, but as you yourself said:

H[=Rissien;1492904']Balance>Realism in this mod, sorry to burst your bubble. Wouldnt be very fun to play a side if it just got stomped into the ground all the time now would it.

[Truism]

Jumping back to the people earlier in the thread who said that C4 is a powerful explosive IRL and so should have no problems owning a cache through a few walls you have missed the point of C4. C4 is primarily a contact explosive - it doesn't cause massive overpressure like a fuel air bomb does, and doesn't create secondary fragmentation without actually embedding that into the mix, which isn't done in dems like the C4 in game.

What C4 is really good for is destroying what it's in contact with with an extremely high velocity explosion. Generally the malleability (and incredible stability) of C4 combined with the high velocity explosion is what makes it good as a military demolition because it can be shaped around what needs to be blown.

To give an idea of the sort of effect you see from C4, I was recently made aware of a serial of over 150 slabs of C4 in sizes varying from half a kilo to one and a half kilos which were used in a training exercise to simulate battlefield noise (called battlefield noise simulation hurr hurr hurr). This was done as part of a defensive operations exercise and the serial was let off very close to the main defensive position. While the explosions, by all accounts, were loud and could easily be felt through the ground during the simulated fire missions, they caused fairly little damage to the ground they were placed in.

In another example from the same exercise, 1kg slabs of C4 were let off in and around the fighting bays after the position was vacated to demonstrate the effect of revetting, overhead protection and shelter bays on the survivorbility of occupants. 50cm of earth with a single sheet of corrugated iron successfully resisted a slab of C4 buried just under the surface. A revetted wall remained intact with no effect to the integrity of the trench when two slabs were let off at the same time 75cm from the wall of the trench buried 50cm down, 50cm apart.

When I did my bayonet training 1kg slabs of C4 were used for BNS with, to say the least, very heavily modified safety precautions. In some cases the slabs were within 30m of the course itself and were not buried as they should have been. No ill effects were felt by members on the course itself apart from flying dirt from the blast getting on them, which wasn't such a big deal since we were all already filthy.

As a final point of interest, a claymore contains about 700g of C4. There is a safety distance of 16 meters to the rear of the weapon, however in practice it is safe to, and I know people who have used it with nothing but a pack between them and the device, though certainly not officially. In this instance it is extremely disorientating, but renders no permenant damage to the person apart from mild concussion effects and temporary hearing loss (pretty much irrespective of what hearing protection is worn).

Generally speaking I feel C4 in game does its damage over too wide an area. I've no issues with it dealing massive damage, because it does do that, but the blast from it should probably dissipate faster than it does at present, dealing substantially less damage at range.