Removal of helicopter carried Anti-Air missiles

[PatrickLA_CA]

Are you sure apache cant carry AA missiles?



Apache Attack Helicopter (AH-64A/D) - Army Technology

The Apache can be equipped with air-to-air missiles (Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm) and the advanced precision kill weapon system (APKWS), formerly known as Hydra, family of guided and unguided 70mm rockets. Plans to arm the Apache with the advanced precision kill weapon system (APKWS) II, a laser-guided version of the Hydra were shelved in the FY2008 budget. The US Army awarded BAE Systems a development contract for the APKWS II in April 2006

[hotfranc]

I really support this suggestion because the Attack chopper vs Attack chopper AA fights are unrealistics and it is not the skills of the pilot that wins the fight, it is the luck. I also agree with this suggestion because i can't remember how many times iv'e said no for a CAS support to my team cause i need to hunt their chopper first. That because if you hit a target you will most likely get killed by their Attack choppers while rtbing.

This may not be related but the attack choppers are underpowered now. Yes they have thermals but when they fly low to scan for targets, they have 80%+ chances to get killed by a ground AA or if the ennemy see you, you will most likely have the other Attack helicopter diving on you within a minute. Also, the manpads or stationary AA lock range is above the visual range. That mean you can't go in a area where there is an AA unless you have good intel that it's not manned or when it is lazed.

I truely think that suggestion could change the Attack choppers gameplay and hopefully make it more a more useful asset for the team. Finally, i think the gameplay should win over the reality for this situation because we all know it is not realistic at all but it could really improve the gameplay.

[Zoddom]

@patrick:

we all know that Attack helis can carry AA missiles. the problem is irl, sidewinders have such a small range taht they can really only be used for self defense, pe if an enemy plane comes near to you and tries to bring you down with its gun. or if suddenly an enemy helicopter appeasr... and well with EWR and AWACS thats pretty unlikely.

[PatrickLA_CA]

Yes Zoddom, that's why they are in PR too and have very low range but, pilots always go searching enemy CAS because they know that the enemy CAS is searching them too, which sucks but I use it because I don't want to get killed when hunting tanks at 800m while the enemy CAS is 1k above me and raping or diving and locking me 1 sec before it kills me. Adjusting to 1 heli per team would be more realistic I think because both helis will be searching themselves and one will die in couple of minutes and you have 20 min of CAS available while now, u kill 1 havoc(after ~5 min), 2nd havoc kills 1 apache(~5-10 min) , 2nd apache kills 2nd havoc(~10-15 min) which makes the first havoc spawn couple of minutes after 2nd is down and apaches have to go search for it again..... and again..... and again, and on Snow Maps, you don't get that because there is only 1 attack heli per team.

I hope you got what I meant.

[Zoddom]

Yand on Snow Maps, you don't get that because there is only 1 attack heli per team.

now that you mentioned it i noticed this too ... seems to be a pretty good solution, although it seems that one heli is always in advantage (snow storm -> apache, northern lights ->havoc[but rather because of the landing gear bug of the tiger]).
and if you think about it, one helicopter is enoguh for CAS. it shouldnt be that hard for ground troups.

[Alex6714]

Well I think they would usually work in pairs.

If the aa is removed it will be the same, just this time you will be hit from above you by a hellfire or something, or there will be ridiculous vanilla style fights.

Not to mention that in real life some atgms can be used vs air targets anyway, and you can track them with the cannon if close enough aswell.

Solution is more variation if anything. Give one heli cannon, rockets and AA, the other gets hellfires. Or give AA to the kiowa etc. Though I think the AA is not the problem.

[Zoddom]

Well I think they would usually work in pairs.

If the aa is removed it will be the same, just this time you will be hit from above you by a hellfire or something, or there will be ridiculous vanilla style fights.

Solution is more variation if anything. Give one heli cannon, rockets and AA, the other gets hellfires. Or give AA to the kiowa etc. Though I think the AA is not the problem.

hm i guess nobody really knows what the solution of this problem is, its a riddle.
if only one chopper had AAs, then he would definatley go on a reckless CAS hunt, im sure.
on the other hand, if im allowed to link to my suggestion, if you had both removed the AA missiles and a limited altitude, it wouldnt be able to dive down on the enemy, so you if you tried to engage it youd force an eye to eye battle, where either the better would win or, as we say in german "Der Kl?gere gibt nach" (The cleverer one backs down, i hope thats right ;D), which depends ofc on the situation. in a real eye to eye fight, enemy cas in front of you, it would be the best to retreat fast behind your lines where your AA awaits the enemy cas.

[Alex6714]

If the altitude is limited then the attack helis become even more useless than now, because they have no where to escape the tanks, apcs, .50s and everything on the ground.

[Zoddom]

If the altitude is limited then the attack helis become even more useless than now, because they have no where to escape the tanks, apcs, .50s and everything on the ground.

as i carried it out in my suggestion, a limit of 1000m would be enough to hide from ground troups, as 1000m is the maximum vis range, so you would only be visible from straight below.
you cant say that you are able to "escape" from tanks without a limit, cause reaching such an altitude takes longer than a minute and is very lame.

[Alex6714]

as i carried it out in my suggestion, a limit of 1000m would be enough to hide from ground troups, as 1000m is the maximum vis range, so you would only be visible from straight below.
you cant say that you are able to "escape" from tanks without a limit, cause reaching such an altitude takes longer than a minute and is very lame.

I agree its very lame, Id like nothing more than more freedom in tactics and being able to fly low realistically, but a limit at 1000m is also incredibly lame, and just means there will always be someone higher anyway. I don?t mean escape in the sense of after being seen, I mean in the sense of tactical maneuvers around the map.

[Zoddom]

imho we could even limit it to 800m. the point is that the difference between the usual combat altitude and the maximum alt. is being minimized. because you dont have that big advantage if youre only 100m higher rather than 1km and diving straight down on your target.
as i sad 1000m are more than enough. before 0.95 I never flew higher than 800m.
since that whole heli hunting started (that was when the AA missiles have been added i think) players constantly wind each other up and the combat altitude keeps rising, as ive been killed from 1500m alt. yesterday and i never experienced such a great alt. before. that jsut has to stop

[Alex6714]

Best solution = view distance = not possible.

AA missiles have been on helicopters since at least 0.6 iirc.

[Punkbuster]

This suggestion would require more skill and I think a lot funner from the ground and air perspective. Whats more fun to watch or be part of? Two choppers fighting all over the sky with hydras and guns going everywhere and the choppers running to their ground troops for help, or the first chopper to spot the other firing 2 missles and the fight is done.

Thoughts?

At first I was like naah... I mean that's not realistic...
But when I read the above part of your comment, I was like HELL YEAH!!
I mean imagine an Apache and a Havok dogfighting 50 meters above you with all the bullets exploding next to you and the screen will be blurry and you know stuff like that!
So Yes, I approve with you!

Cheers,
Punkbuster

[Zoddom]

Best solution = view distance = not possible.

AA missiles have been on helicopters since at least 0.6 iirc.

well it seems bigger viewdistances are possible, but if we wanted them we would need to get completely new or rebuild maps.
and im sure there was some version with kashan without AA missiles. I remember a fragmovie of you and mora with the 300 soundtrack, where you (are you the gunner? not sure) took down all helis with the gun or the laser guided hellfires so it didnt seem to have sidewinders back then. but thats not important now.

I hope you just see that it cant stay as it is now, with unlimited altitude. we will end up in rising for 15 minutes in the beginning of the round jsut to make sure we are higher. thats a very big problem

[Alex6714]

and im sure there was some version with kashan without AA missiles. I remember a fragmovie of you and mora with the 300 soundtrack, where you (are you the gunner? not sure) took down all helis with the gun or the laser guided hellfires so it didnt seem to have sidewinders back then. but thats not important now.

Thats just because we thought wed have a bit of fun and hit the hovering guys without them having the slightest clue. Another reason not to hover.

[Zoddom]

oh you
well i think with increased viewdistance some people would still going as high as tehy need to be able to dive down unseen, it would still be possible and damage gameplay even harder than now

[PatrickLA_CA]

1000m or 800m is lame because APCs will sit on high points and wait for the choppers (BMP,30mm...)
And if that is done, the ground AA needs to be more limited beacuse of the epic 30 flares.

[Zoddom]

1000m or 800m is lame because APCs will sit on high points and wait for the choppers (BMP,30mm...)
And if that is done, the ground AA needs to be more limited beacuse of the epic 30 flares.

i dont think thats true.
when youre at 800m at a view distance of 1000m then the apc must be in an area of about 900m in diameter below you only to be able to see you. and then it would still have to aim higher than it would be able to. and if youre attacking your lower than 800m eitehr way so that doesnt make a difference

[PatrickLA_CA]

BMP and 30mm MTLBs can look straight up.... imagine what will happen if they are on a hill, you won't be able to see them as you can't look straight down but they will see and rape you as they can look straight up.

[Rissien]

They still have to watch 360 degrees around them AND and varied heights, not to mention for any ground forces in the area.