Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post your feedback on the current Project Reality release (including SinglePlayer).
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Ninja2dan
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 2213
Joined: 2007-10-29 03:09

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by Ninja2dan »

a0jer wrote:Without waiting for deviation to settle it is possible to shoot the ceiling several feet in front of you whilst aiming across a small room in PR. Think of the position the soldier's hands would be in to make that shot.
It's easy to understand why that happens when you think about how the BF2 engine works.

When you move about in PR, your weapon is pointed at the center of the screen at all times (except during reloads, gear swap, etc.). So if you were to imagine what it would look like, people would be running around, climbing stairs, etc all with their weapon out and pointed perfectly forward. Yet in real life we don't move that way.

So one should be able to imagine that deviation is also used to simulate the person actually putting the weapon stock to their shoulder, leveling the weapon at the target, placing their cheek on the stock, and aligning the sights. Once they have sight picture, they still need to steady their hold, control their breathing, and finally squeeze off a round. Deviation is partly meant to simulate all of those factors, not just the natural deviation that occurs from ballistics.


Games like ArmA for example do a little better at displaying those factors, with things like the weapon having some directional movement within the main frame of view. At the same time the "impact marker" or "aim point" in ArmA can be seen swaying when you run, or bobbing up and down during heavy breathing. Those are not possible in PR.

We have what we have not because the development team is lazy, but because the engine simply doesn't allow it.
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seph567
Posts: 44
Joined: 2009-02-26 19:54

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by seph567 »

I like the deviation system. for me it's not important to see my weapon moving up and down after a sprint as long as I know how to aim properly.

and in comparisson to all the old PR version (especially 0.7x) i fucking LOVE the actual settle times. back in 0.7 you could have complained about not hitting shit but now its quite easy as long as u are a little patient.
Shaheed
Posts: 6
Joined: 2010-08-02 09:55

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by Shaheed »

i like the deviation system too. maybe the settletime can be reduce about 10 % more, but it is ok. i got one question or maybe u can call it suggestion. after u wait and the deviation is at it his minimum there is still a little random spread, right? i mean u don't have a aiming spot, more a little aiming radius. for snipers and marksman weapons this radius is smaller then for normal assault rilfes, right? so maybe we can reduce this last aiming radius. so if u settle down with a assault rifle, wait 5 sec and more, aim for the head (fixed target)... u will 99 % hit. there is this aiming tutorial video, where u can see : even if u wait the right time to minimize the deviation u still don't precisely hit where u aim. ok for targets at a distance for more then 300 meters u have bullet drop so it s ok. but in the video the distance is 250 m, so u dont have bullet drop effect and i think a trained soldier proned with enough time to aim, will hit a target (size of head) at distance of 250 m with normal scoped assault rifle. i did it at my military service and that was normal. ok no combat situation everything safe. but u know what i mean i am not a trained soldier, field veteran or special force soldier. so i don't think this idea is unrealistic.
Ninja2dan
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 2213
Joined: 2007-10-29 03:09

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by Ninja2dan »

As mentioned before, any firearm is going to have an inherent amount of deviation regardless of how stable the firing platform.


There are generally 3 factors to deviation:

1) Ballistics - There are a lot of ballistic factors, which includes variances in the ammunition itself as well as production tolerances for the weapon, in addition to actual projectile ballistics. In other words, every rifle ever made, theoretically firing the same round of ammunition in the same environmental conditions by a computerized mechanism will still suffer minor impact differences.

2) Environment - Different aspects of the environment, such as temperature, wind, humidity, altitude, etc will all have an affect on the ballistics of the projectile. And those specific environmental conditions can change every millisecond, deviation is the result.

3) Operator - Even the smallest movements of the operator (firer) can affect deviation. Breathing, heartbeat, muscle movement, muscle tension, etc can all affect movement of the weapon prior to firing, as well as weapon stability during and after firing.


With the combination of those factors, it's impossible to fully defeat deviation. While you can take steps to reduce it, you can never get rid of it. And under most circumstances, especially in a combat environment, those factors will cause deviation to increase much more so than someone on a controlled range.

Considering the fact that the game engine is not capable of simulating some of those factors that a real soldier must deal with, I think the current level of deviation is more than suitable as a realistic replacement.
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seph567
Posts: 44
Joined: 2009-02-26 19:54

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by seph567 »

I'm even pretty sure that there are many soliders out there who have never been in a situation where the target is actually returning fire. I bet some of them are not able to hit a damn barn at 250m while mortars are going up and tanks rolling by ;)
Ninja2dan
Retired PR Developer
Posts: 2213
Joined: 2007-10-29 03:09

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by Ninja2dan »

It's a little more difficult to shoot when your boner is digging into the sand.
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single.shot (nor)
Posts: 692
Joined: 2008-04-12 07:06

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by single.shot (nor) »

Personally, I LOVE the deviation system, even more so than the ARMA2 style weapon swaying system, because as it is now, I feel like it's realistic except in very special situations that almost never occur ingame (such as 1v1 face-offs)

in my experience, the devation system provides a great platform for realistic shooting.
War is a huge matter for a nation. it's the field of life and death, destruction and survival, and such matters cannot be left unstudied. - Sun Tzu
Sean Ramey
Posts: 2
Joined: 2009-05-28 22:11

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by Sean Ramey »

Jman234 wrote:When I use the MG3 Deployed and in prone for a good 8 seconds and shoot in bursts of 3, I'm better off using a pistol. I find the deviation in this game ridiculous sometimes.
You are having a totally different experience than me then cuz if I lay there for as long as you are I can get headshots at 300m with that thing.
USMC scout sniper
Posts: 487
Joined: 2010-01-03 04:21

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by USMC scout sniper »

I modded PRSP to have no deviation HAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's easy. Anyway I'm for deviation.When you're in combat, usually you're nervous and scared and that causes you to shake, thus making shooting your weapon a little harder.
HELL HAVE NO FURY LIKE ME WITH A M249 SAW PIP!
lukeyu2005
Posts: 226
Joined: 2010-11-01 02:48

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by lukeyu2005 »

It's there to stop quick scopers and faggots who think this is COD
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
Posts: 158
Joined: 2009-07-22 09:46

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by Sirex[SWE][MoW] »

USMC scout sniper wrote:I modded PRSP to have no deviation HAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's easy. Anyway I'm for deviation.When you're in combat, usually you're nervous and scared and that causes you to shake, thus making shooting your weapon a little harder.
I would say that that makes adrenaline kick in, your function to think get reduces, resulting in that you will revert back to what is natural as a trained soldier, that will be to do what you have done a thousand times before, the routines your body has learned a thousand times on shooting range and battle drills that the officers has screamed at you, grip the weapon as tightly as you can and shoot as you have been taught.

That is atleast what how i responded during combat drills in the forest, griped my weapon tightly as that is my only life insurance and focused on operating that as best as possible. Often i find that in intensive squad combat that you don't have time to think, you listen to your group leader and you try to the battle drills. I find it questionable that a soldier when scared would not pay attention on how to best use the only thing that can save his life, his automatic carbine.

And no, i do not in any way presume that i hold the absolute truth how in real life combat affects soldiers, but my view is as much worth as yours is.
AnimalMother.
Posts: 2476
Joined: 2007-02-25 15:38

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by AnimalMother. »

[R-DEV]Ninja2dan wrote:It's a little more difficult to shoot when your boner is digging into the sand.
persanal experience?
ex |TG-31st|
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PatrickLA_CA
Posts: 2243
Joined: 2009-07-14 09:31

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by PatrickLA_CA »

I still think that the weapons are too accurate in game as fire fights last for couple of seconds only.
In-game: Cobra-PR
Sirex[SWE][MoW]
Posts: 158
Joined: 2009-07-22 09:46

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by Sirex[SWE][MoW] »

PatrickLA_CA wrote:I still think that the weapons are too accurate in game as fire fights last for couple of seconds only.
And? What is unrealistic about that?
BenHamish
Posts: 325
Joined: 2010-10-17 11:59

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by BenHamish »

PatrickLA_CA wrote:I still think that the weapons are too accurate in game as fire fights last for couple of seconds only.
Generally that's because it's point blank and nobody is scared of dying though.

At 150m plus, they could go on for ages if you have 2x competent squads.
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coopr
Posts: 51
Joined: 2010-10-11 10:03

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by coopr »

indeed in real life you won't show ur head when their is bullets flying over your head.
taipohh-Est-
Posts: 5
Joined: 2007-10-15 15:58

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by taipohh-Est- »

have to agree on the issue..but not in all aspects.
i have no trouble understanding the deviation at longer ranges,but when i walk into a room and 2 americans are facing away and i let it rip with a AK and miss them and they kill me...then i go WTF..
distance was about 4-5 meters and ALL bullets missed...
other instance.. having sniper rifle as insurgent,saw walked into a guy 2m and shot..shot went off about 5 meters.. thats not real..its stupid..
u can hit a target at that range no problem scope or hip or ironsight..

distance deviation is the problem here... its too big at close range.

thats my humble opinion!
WithoutPurpose
Posts: 131
Joined: 2010-11-26 19:29

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by WithoutPurpose »

taipohh-Est- wrote:have to agree on the issue..but not in all aspects.
i have no trouble understanding the deviation at longer ranges,but when i walk into a room and 2 americans are facing away and i let it rip with a AK and miss them and they kill me...then i go WTF..
distance was about 4-5 meters and ALL bullets missed...
other instance.. having sniper rifle as insurgent,saw walked into a guy 2m and shot..shot went off about 5 meters.. thats not real..its stupid..
u can hit a target at that range no problem scope or hip or ironsight..

distance deviation is the problem here... its too big at close range.

thats my humble opinion!
This ^ Agree with him
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KillJoy[Fr]
Posts: 837
Joined: 2010-12-28 20:51

Re: Weapon aiming does not fit reality

Post by KillJoy[Fr] »

wrong , you can miss someone at 2-5 meter i'm a paintballer,airsofter and sometimes target pratice with real guns
If you run , dont hold your aiming or firing like a retard you miss him for sure !!
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