Sniper Kit Discussion - Removal?

[killonsight95]

The sniper is fine, and the majority of the arguments against them seem to be that they have no merit on PR battlefields, even though there have been countless posts explaining the merits of them, the counterarguments being "Well, you can do that with any class", a flawed argument based around people not liking how others act in public servers, also known as whining.

wrong, if the sniper were fine this disscussion why would be continuing right?
if your saying that the arguements against snipers seem to not make sence in the world of PR then how about the veiw distance arguement... snipers are useless on smaller maps and even on the larger ones where their full shooting distance is only just in eye sight.... where as in real life a sniper could shoot someone a lot further than 1000 meters. Also i fine that snipers cannot hide themselves in PR like in real life, otherwise IRL snipers would be pretty much useless as they'd be spotted straight away, after their first 1- 2 shots. also those "counter arguements"

the counterarguments being "Well, you can do that with any class", a flawed argument based around people not liking how others act in public servers, also known as whining.

were actualy agianst the kit being removed not for the kit being removed so i guess self owned arguement there.

[Turner]

snipers are useless on smaller maps

This is where your wrong...In Fallujah, the Asylum style buildings are perfect "Hides"
for snipers.

[dtacs]

I think SF kit would be better than Sniper because sniper can be only used for sniping from a distance

The SF kit was removed for a good reason...so SF style operations didn't happen.

while SF can operate behind enemy lines and act as normal infantry, so 2 roles in one opposed to the

SF aren't designed to operate as normal infantry, nor would they ever considering there ARE boots ready to do their job.

snipers 1 role only.

Sniper is double role, FAC and the elimination of important targets.

[Epipen]

This is where your wrong...In Fallujah, the Asylum style buildings are perfect "Hides"
for snipers.

No they're not, if you're sniping from a building, in fallujah for exemple, the enemey will be able to hear your shots and easly kill you, you should never snipe from city buildings...

I don't think that the kit should be removed, only the bad snipers, vanilla players with only one objective: FRAG.

[Mikemonster]

We have mortars now - A dedicated FAC/Art Observer kit would make the Snipzor kit redundant.

No more l33t whores telling you to get off 'their' hill, instead someone who has consciously chosen to not get kills himself but to directly spot for and support other squads (inclding CAS).

And also, at the moment a sniper is an irrelevant irritance that occasionally makes you revive a player and harasses you - A FAC kit who is 100% into his job would be a true nusciance and hopefully represent the level of pain and havoc they cause on areal battlefield.

The snipers in PR really aren't the silent killers and spotters of the battlefield .. 9/10 times you know exactly where they are and they shoot every 4 seconds (it would be silly of them not to). A FAC kit would invest the player with behaving slightly less obtrusively..

[Killer2354]

We have mortars now - A dedicated FAC/Art Observer kit would make the Snipzor kit redundant.

No more l33t whores telling you to get off 'their' hill, instead someone who has consciously chosen to not get kills himself but to directly spot for and support other squads (inclding CAS).

And also, at the moment a sniper is an irrelevant irritance that occasionally makes you revive a player and harasses you - A FAC kit who is 100% into his job would be a true nusciance and hopefully represent the level of pain and havoc they cause on areal battlefield.

The snipers in PR really aren't the silent killers and spotters of the battlefield .. 9/10 times you know exactly where they are and they shoot every 4 seconds (it would be silly of them not to). A FAC kit would invest the player with behaving slightly less obtrusively..

A bit of a nerco post there...

Past that, if you have a good sniper/ sniper- spotter team, they will generally be telling the team where contacts are, not busy pulling the trigger. You can't take out a kit because of how some people use it- then you have the people using it correctly getting mad.

Also, that smells a little like a suggestion outside of the correct forum.

[Punkbuster]

It should be removed!
As Rudd said above:

It's not 'snipers' its 'bad snipers'

[reozm]

I don't think Sniper should be removed.
The kit is really good if "1337 snipers" didn't always take them.
One time on that big Canadian forest map (I forgot which one but it's the only Canada vs. Russia map) we had an inf squad of Sniper, Medic, Anti-Tank, and I forgot what the fourth guy was since he stole a Chinook and crashed it.

The Sniper managed to clear several towers (those wooden outpost things).
But Snipers that just sit in a corner really don't help the team. They could be doing more as a Rifleman. In fact, Snipers on Insurgency are annoying as ****.

[Mikemonster]

I posted in the Suggestions forum and was directed here as it had 'already been suggested'.

Also, why not remove a kit because the majority of people abuse it?

[L4gi]

Who cares if they lose the sniper kit? Its just like any other kit. On insurgency for example I'd rather have a sniper lose his kit than some dumbass inf guy lose a LAT kit. Snipers are useful in PR when used right, but even when used wrong, they dont really cost your team more than a few tickets. Compare that to a shitty infantry squad that dies 30 times, kills maybe a few enemies, I'd rather have this sniper lose his kit a few times.

On insurgency, snipers are prolly one of the best people to get cache intel, by either kills or spotting where the enemy is spawning from.

Like this for example

[Mikemonster]

Damn, forgot to mention, in Ins I would keep the sniper, because of the reasons Lagi mentioned and also because it is a *bit* more realistic in representing the Ins battlefield.

Lagi, what does your pic show?

[Cheditor]

L4gi has a civlian/unarmed kit i would guess he was using a sniper kit previously. Taking the sniper kit out is just stupid in my opinion, enemies can't get the kit when it goes down and unless there is an entire 6 man squad taking up resources then two guys can be spared. If we are going to use the mentality of it should be removed because of "bad snipers" then lets remove CAS/Jets, i see more bad pilots crashing or flying too low than i see good pilots doing well. Thats a whole lot more tickets than 2/4 depending how the snipers died. Also seeing as when CAS/Jets go down they are down for 20 minutes allowing the enemy planes to just bomb everything without much fear.

[Truism]

Increase the barriers to entry on the kit. Tighten up the deviation a tonne once there's a decent ballistics system in place. Sniping isn't an artform or a skill so much as it's a science, one that should stop all but moderately intelligent people from being able to use it effectively.

I don't think it should be removed, I just think it's an incredibly awkward kit at the moment.

[Mikemonster]

Good point Cheditor, I just feel that the Sniper kit is an addition to the gameplay of PR, it's not integral.

Basically it's an optional extra to help the team if you see fit, unlike [some] APC's and transport heli's who have that as their duty. I.e. a transport pilot messes around and dies, everyone is affected. A sniper gets 50 kills, or none, and nobody even notices. It's a lonely, selfish battle 99% of the time, and just a bit irritating to see in a teamwork game.

Ralfi's vid in Tales From The Frond emphasises this for me. He's undoubtedly a good player and means well by taking sniper, but in that even you could see the sniper kit encourages lonewolfing mentality (not knowing where the squad is he's 'supporting'). I'd be just the same if I took the kit, i'm sure - not knocking him personally. Just saying that that's a good player - imagine what the bad ones are like.

Now if that was a CAS/Mortar spotter on the hills of Muttrah.. I believe the extra teamwork would swing the game a bit and encourage a more dynamic battlefield.

Everyone likes using sniper kit from time to time, and I think that's where the resistance to removing it is coming from. A bit like how some people are uneasy about taxing the rich - Just in case they become rich one day.

[L4gi]

Maybe youre just mad cause you cant use the kit yourself?

[beavis.uk^]

Don't mix up bad players with game mechanics. Is there a need to discuss this at all? The developers most likely know what to do seeing as it has been in the work for years, plus the fact other games have given ideas about this. Also most people here sound frustrated because of experiences. Remember the kit is a choice, you don't have to be one, there is also a choice in whether you would like to be shot by one too, learn to avoid this.

[KiloJules]

Off topic:

I cannot for the life of mine remember that particular round L4gi
but it is somehow funny to see my name on a screenshot in the web
And I sure agree on your point of the LAT-Kit on Ins as it is like the famous
"Birthday and Christmas on one day"-thingy. "Wow, a scope and an AT - that is rich!"
I wonder when people get it, that it is almost as bad like the HAT in the pre-0.957-era.

On topic (I hope):

As being on the ground as Infantry (Leader or member, depending on how late it is) like 99,9% of the time, i have a wide array of thoughts about sniper kits:

Most of the time i am playing on a server the sniper kit is being used in a more or less ineffective way with shooting too much, reporting too few, and so forth. You guys pointed it pretty much out.
Hell, even i have to admit: Sometimes when i am tired I enjoy sitting on a hill (of course - Muttrah) with my buddy MoeSes and chill and just watch what is going on down there. If so I try to report anything what could be a harm to other people and he just gets to catch some guys off guard from time to time or a nasty covering AR that is stationary in the wrong spot.
What I find could be a relatively good working combination is a 3 men squad out of let's say Sniper + HAT + Medic/SL, since the two have to be stationary a lot, IF this squad moves along with the attack of the rest in some form. Like being a little in the back and reacting on problems here and there or moving along on a long hill...

On the other hand, since I try to improve my SLing I find it kinda good to know (1)on which hot-spot the enemy sniper (2)sees what on (3)any given map to have the (4)proper reaction in mind which renders the ?ber-Loner pretty much useless. That's right it is "?ber" not "Uber" or anything...

If I encounter one of the before mentioned ARs or maybe even a TOW, HMG, etc. I like having the ability of picking up a sniper from a crate or APC to get rid of it CLEAN and EASY.
Funny thing is that it is actually quite often available, which proves the point that lots of people die with it from time to time kinda the same goes for HAT

(P)Reality is learning every game you play, isn't it!?!

BUT what i find even more harmful is a calm dude who just watches my squads every step and keeps his teammates informed about that.
And again you could do that just with an Officer-Kit.
For the standard long range I, as a SL and member, prefer the marksman over the sniper.

Slightly On/Off topic:
AFAIK most of the never returned logistics trucks are due to (even good) SLs who drive out with their guys, build "their" FOB, park it like somewhere else instead of wasting one thought on the fact that it will be destroyed there (sooner or later) and will do no good for the team.
Really don't wanna tube my own horn, but if the situation allows it I try to make out a plan on how to remove the trucks when I don't need them anymore. Like on Kokan the other night:
6-men infantry squad - hummer and logy - found a good spot - had 2 people dig (medic with crewman) while keeping the area safe - 3 men rtb and leave the truck - 3 men come back in the hummer. On MEC you even only need 2 guys rtb! I think everyone who READS the map knows what I am talking about here. I even find abandoned APCs from time to time...what to say about that? Remove them? Hell ya! I don't play them, I don't need them!
That is surely not the way to do it!

So...remove the sniper kit?

No...if you as SL don't need it (right now) make sure no green guy has one! Don't get upset
by it, go your normal ways and concentrate on the "good" guys.
No...if you as a Sniper work with the team (markers and/or mumble > chat) you can be an
actual asset...try to be it...at least sometimes!

Yes to: Mumble mandatory on every server! It really brings people closer together outside the sometimes really annoying squad-boundaries! It is not that hard to get it going! There is a fine tutorial as a sticky in the forums! Thanks for all of that to the DEVs!

Sorry for the wall of text, felt like writing again!
Kind regards,

KiloJules

EDIT: lol - I just realise the letter I used is getting displayed properly while writing but not in the actual post itself...
so I guess you have to google for it...however it is a connection between U and E which kinda makes a "new"
letter in german.

[RealKail]

It is quite frustrating being one of the useful snipers who provides reconnassaince and intel, but having your team not pay attention to a thing you're saying. Of course the fix for that would be only playing on servers that utilize mumble, but I don't want to play there 24/7.

As far as the sniper's current role, it does seem a bit lackluster and inappropriate on a good number of maps. For one, why is the between shot deviation 4 seconds as compared to the deployed marksman's 2? I think these two should be a bit more on par, though I know the snipers are usually making longer range shots. However, most maps having a sniper is just wasteful. I could put together a small 2-4 person team and do effective reconnassaince work for 90% of the current maps. As far as shooters, nothing a good marksman won't be able to handle.

Don't misunderstand me, I love snipers and even run a sniper course for those who want to learn how to more properly use it. However, in this game, their capabilities are fairly limited on most maps.

[reozm]

I think an easy solution would just to be for servers to make Snipers an asset. I mean, servers kick APC squads that take an APC and don't do anything with it.

If Snipers are removed, so should mortars. I've been tked by mortars who don't check their maps before firing more than I've been saved by them.

[Mikemonster]

Nice post Jules, I see what you mean about not removing sniper kit because by that argument you'd have to remove APC's because they are poorly utilized, etc. Usually for that a player is !reported and kicked though.

Maybe youre just mad cause you cant use the kit yourself?

That was a bit uncalled for Lagi.. I've already explained why I dont like the snipzor kit. I can use it myself - play against me in Insurgency and i'll show you. I don't use it on any other game type because it's against the reasons I play PR.

And i'll be honest, it's not a hard kit to use.. It's probably the easiest kit in the game to use and wrongly it's also the most coveted.