Sniper Kit Discussion - Removal?

[L4gi]

Come at me bro! Dont be so mad, im just messin with ya.

[Mikemonster]

No dramas mate.

[Truism]

And i'll be honest, it's not a hard kit to use.. It's probably the easiest kit in the game to use and wrongly it's also the most coveted.

Pretty much this. The kit itself is stupidly easy to use, and the tactical considerations for using it are simpler than almost anything else in the game (find a hiding spot where you can see things, shoot things, report things). On the other hand, against competant enemies who are aware of the threat of snipers, the kit is virtually useless since a target has to sit still or run directly towards/away from you to land a hit. By simply maintaining intelligent movement and cover, you can make yourself all but immune to snipers in PR.

That's what I mean. In the hands of idiots, this kit is still too easy to use. In real life, a well trained, positioned and sited sniper can pin a whole squad or platoon, potentially denying swathes of ground. Excellent snipers have killed battalions of men in real life. Excellent snipers in PR are barely better than mediocre snipers because of how the kit's been designed.

I firmly believe that without detailed knowledge of rangefinding, use of the various reticles and ballistics, the sniper kit should be practically worthless, but with it, it should be a force to be reckoned with.

(Sort of like commanders really. Barrier to entry is far too low, difference between exceptional and mediocre too small.)

[Truism]

Doublepost, addressing a seperate issue.

The sniper kit isn't for recon. Officer kits are just as well (better?) set up for it, and every kit has a pair of binos that do at least 90% of the recon a sniper can do. The idea that the kit is meant for recon is pure wishful thinking by people who watched too much Jarhead and Behind Enemy Lines.

The only exceptional thing about the sniper kit is his rifle, and it's also where the kit falls down.

The recon is a byproduct of the positioning to use the rifle effectively in PR. In real life it's because there's significant overlap between recon and sniping field/battlecraft (cam and concealment, judging distances, observation techniques, calls for fire) and, again, the fact that a sniper that hasn't shot yet essentially being in a position for an OP anyway in order to provide surgical fire support in the future.

Grinds my gears. Only thing that does more is when a sniper in PR decides, against every single logical argument against it, that he needs a spotter to do his job. Someday the code will catch up to the capability and a spotter really will be necessary for all but the most gifted snipers. Until then, just no.

[Mellanbror]

If a player really was in for the teams best, he wouldent have the problem of finding a second guy to join squad for spotting....he would play that role joyfully himself. This is rare because everyone just wants "the cool gun" and not play the teams part. Pretty much end of storie.

Played this game for years and can still count on my fingers the times a sniper has impressed me (or even been of any real help).

Even for spotting role, just having the sniperrifle hinders players from performing in that role, cause they will shoot and reveal their position.

Best use of sniperkit is to leave it so any squad can pick it up when really needed. Then they drop they the kit back in the pool when its not needed anymore. Simple.

[KorD_]

I like sniper kit and i like to have a sniper in my 6ppl squad. Especially when we build a FOB on a strategical position and defend it. Usually we need 4 soldiers crewing HMGs, AT&AA launchers, 1 rifleman for ammo supplying & sniffing around. So we have 1 free squad member and sometimes it's better to give him a sniper rifle on maps like Silent Eagle, Op Archer, etc. Sniper have good binoculars with gread zoom capability and his rifle can hit targets unreachable to HMG. Usually I assign sniper role to responsible player so I always have enough intel about enemies around our position.

[Mikemonster]

Truism you have a knack for explaining.

Also as i've said before in this discussion, a sniper to me is a general irritance but never puts me off the task in hand. I just say to my squad:

'Oh, there's a sniper up there. Don't bother shooting because he's peeking over the hill. Instead just make sure if you stop anywhere you're in cover.'

That is generally the extent that a sniper affects me. If i'm pissed off or bored I tell my whole squad to fire on him and to keep firing even if one of them dies. We were under sniper fire in Jabal last night and I lined them all up on a hill and ignored him until after we'd supressed the others. Then we supressed him.

[Bringerof_D]

they cant help individual sq or person because their role is to take out targets that they feel important such as medic sq leaders , hat ...

true enough they fire on important targets, but you are dead wrong still. that is not their role. their role is to stay hidden and provide intel, that is all. The only a time a sniper shoots is when there is actually a designated target to kill, or he needs to take out an asset or risk losing one.

this means yes HAT are important targets, SL and medics are not. SL and medics are only important targets if they are engaging friendly units or are engaging you. in other words unless the squad is fighting SL and medic serves no role if they are not already fighting. To fire on a squad that is not engaged only serves to give away your position.

the potential of a shooting sniper is available only when causing confusion to enemies, and they will not be confused if you're the only one shooting at them.

[L4gi]

I thought we were playing a computer game.

[Truism]

true enough they fire on important targets, but you are dead wrong still. that is not their role. their role is to stay hidden and provide intel, that is all. The only a time a sniper shoots is when there is actually a designated target to kill, or he needs to take out an asset or risk losing one.

this means yes HAT are important targets, SL and medics are not. SL and medics are only important targets if they are engaging friendly units or are engaging you. in other words unless the squad is fighting SL and medic serves no role if they are not already fighting. To fire on a squad that is not engaged only serves to give away your position.

the potential of a shooting sniper is available only when causing confusion to enemies, and they will not be confused if you're the only one shooting at them.

This is wrong and a little bit silly.

If this is the task, then the ideal kit is the HAT kit. Stay hidden, observe, report, kill only mission critical targets, and reposition if you do so. The HAT, unlike the sniper rifle, never fails to kill an engaged target, and has very reliable accuracy in a wide variety of situations.

I agree with you on principle that SL and Medics don't really constitute HVT's, but disagree that this informs the sniper's role. The sniper, as with every kit, is to do the most for the win. The only rule is flexibility. Utilise every capability to its maximum potential by making flexible plans that exploit strengths to the fullest and mitigating weaknesses as much as possible.

If the sniper's role isn't primarily to shoot, stop picking the sniper kit to do recon, and take any of the kits that have binoculars. Fuck, take a medic and heal yourself if you get tagged. Take an officer and do emulate every bit of recon work the sniper can do better. Take a specialist kit and do it from a better position. Take a rifleman kit and don't deny a specialised kit's use to your team by wasting it on dedicated recon for a bloody platoon engagement.

The sniper kit has no advantages over other kits for recon in this video game. Only convention and a misguided sense of realism keeps the practice alive.

[Rico]

The sniper kit has no advantages over other kits for recon in this video game. Only convention and a misguided sense of realism keeps the practice alive.

1) It has a better set of binos
2) Can laze targets for CAS
3) Can spot (radio)

Your arguments are void.

Whilst I don't use the kit that often, it has times when it is very useful both at squad and team level.

[L4gi]

And can shoot people in the face at ranges assault rifles cant.

[Truism]

1) It has a better set of binos
2) Can laze targets for CAS
3) Can spot (radio)

Your arguments are void.

Whilst I don't use the kit that often, it has times when it is very useful both at squad and team level.

What? The Officer kit has all those things, but no where do I see people claiming that the officer kit should remain hidden and avoid killing the other team.

I never claimed the kit was useless, and even if you just proved that the sniper kit has a significant advantage over other kits for recon (highly dubious), it doesn't touch on any of my other arguments.

It also doesn't even start to touch on the fact that people who think it's for recon don't understand recon and seem to believe dedicated recon assets have a place in a platoon sized engagement. Or if I take a step back, that dedicated recon in a maneuvreless environment is more valuable than more combat power.

Because that's the more fundamental premise of what I was saying.

[Arc_Shielder]

A couple of days ago I created a Defense Inf Squad (in Muttrah) but everyone else was already assigned in other squads. By chance I found an officer kit laying on the ground and decided to scout for the team. I marked several infantry marks and reported to SLs Radio Channel.

Note this, the only time I sighted a full enemy squad, the apc responded to my call and blew them away. But chances if the armor wasn't around then they would of successfully flanked - me, the sole defender - from the east. These are one of those occasions when it pays off to have a sniper to take out the enemy SL or Medic. Slow them down enough until decent backup arrives.

So Truism is right on that regard. SL is there to do recon, there is no one more qualified than him. However, the sniper can be a convenient member as long you limit his actions to critical situations or strategic moves when teamworking with another squad.

[Rico]

What you said was:

The sniper kit has no advantages over other kits for recon in this video game. Only convention and a misguided sense of realism keeps the practice alive.

... I pointed out was incorrect as most kits do not have the same ability. The only kit that is similiar is officer. Most of us would rather have a big pointy gun to take out important targets as well though.

The kit has an important role in the game, I don't see what all this fuss is about.

[mat552]

The kit has an important role in the game, I don't see what all this fuss is about.

The fuss is about the 75%+ of players who flat out ignore the intended roll for the kit so they can have their own brand of fun, sometimes at the expense of other players.

[gazzthompson]

The fuss is about the 75%+ of players who flat out ignore the intended roll for the kit so they can have their own brand of fun, sometimes at the expense of other players.

in my experience this number would realistically be closer to 90%~

[PLODDITHANLEY]

As a defensive SL I have a few times asked for a sniper or if unavailable a Marksman.

In a defensive role they can be very useful to guard the AA gun on a Muttrah roof, to use them effectively in an aggressive attacking squad requires more patience to use as rear cover, but lets face it, we rarely have the time or patience for that in PR.

[Mikemonster]

Hang on the arguments here are:

1) In a real battle the sniper would hardly fire - he is essentially not a part of the battle but instead an observer from a camouflaged hide. People in PR would call this 'doing recon' and seeing as the gun wouldn't be used it could just as easily be done by an Officer Kit. Aside from this, in a 'real' battle of platoon size the sniper would not be used.

(My argument to this - fair do's, I agree, and it shouldn't be in PR. If it is, why not replace it with a FAC kit so players don't use the gun [unrealistically]?)


2) It's the responsibility of the 'sniper' in PR to get as many kills as possible (to maximise the kits potential to win the game).

(My argument to this - I think this totally works against the gameplay of PR and encourages the behaviour we typically see snipers demonstrating. Aside from that, it's not to my knowledge how they are used in 'real life' so the 'realism' argument is moot too).


3) Keep the kit, in real battles there are snipers so snipers should be in PR.

(My argument to this - I think correct, fair enough [at first glance..]. But the realism of a sniper existing is far outweighed by the unrealistic behaviour they demonstrate, as well as their predictability and the fact that they very seldom make the slightest difference to a game aside from mildly irritating some people who are concentrating on teamwork - the SL's and enemy CAS spotters).


Edit: Truly I think PR has nerfed the ability of each individual soldier to discourage lonewolfing and to make sure you need several players to kill someone conclusively. This I believe works very well and fosters the attitude of needing to be in a squad to actually damage the enemy without being annihilated yourself.

This objective of each individual being less than the sum of the whole is brilliant and encourages all-arms co-operation, and squad co-operation. But the 'sniper' kit basically just throws two fingers to that and gives the 'sniper' the idea that they have the power alone to change the battle because they outrange whole squads and feel immune.

That's why i'd be happy to see it removed.. It's overpowered in the sense that the user doesn't need to be part of the team to use it 'successfully'.

[Zoddom]

1) In a real battle the sniper would hardly fire - he is essentially not a part of the battle but instead an observer from a camouflaged hide. People in PR would call this 'doing recon' and seeing as the gun wouldn't be used it could just as easily be done by an Officer Kit. Aside from this, in a 'real' battle of platoon size the sniper would not be used.

This argument is totally invalid:
What you all mean by saying this "In a real battle the sniper would hardly fire" is this:
In a real scenario, which means a conflict, a sniper would hardly fire.

I doubt that in a real battle a sniper wouldnt fire. Since nowadays there arent enough battles we cant answer this question correctly.
fact is that a sniper that doesnt fire would be a waste of ressources and a sniper that only designates targets, which means EVERY TARGET he sees, to either CAS/SEAD/Artillery etc would be a waste of money and ammunition. Cause you dont always need a GBU to take out an enemy high priority target. I hope you get my point.

edit:
we should rather remove the GTLD from the officer kit than removing the sniper kit, since you all say that other kits can fulfill the role of a spotter/FAC as good as a sniper. Wheres the logic in then saying to remove the sniper rather in removing the spotting ability from the other kits to point out the snipers role?