Sniper Kit Discussion - Removal?

[Wadziu]

Nah, I say leave it. It so much fun to be on the receiving end As soon as one of your squadmates goes down everyone start looking for cover like babies. Then someone peeks around corner with binoculars and goes "Hey, I think I found him!" and suddenly BANG another one drops dead. Then you call CAS or APC to fuck his shit up, I say it encourages even more teamwork and coordination. The more potentional objectives your team can find during public matches the more interesting the games are. Sometimes you have to destroy AA or APC, and sometimes hunt down sniper...and its fun

Using argument that by some players they are not used "realistically" is just silly. Sorry guys but you can say that about any asset in game and none complains about removing HAT kits(how many times have I seen lonewolf HAT and engineer on enemies first flag just to shoot APC going to front-line?) or APCs (which rolls like mad around objectives at full gas shooting every window and building possible without any infantry cover). The problem is when you loose chopper or APC everyone starts bitching because its high valuable asset. Sniper is not, I don't mind if he seats in a bush on hill and snipes down TOW/AA operators or some noobs which think they do not need any cover. I don't even notice snipers which are in the same team or when they die. I can't see any negative influence, from a single sniper sitting somewhere, on the rest of the team. It is the same as he even wasn't there.

So why should we take away those beautiful sniper refiles in which DEVs put so much hard work and love

[mat552]

in my experience this number would realistically be closer to 90%~

Well then your experience is different. I pulled an number out of thin air that was higher than 50 and lower than 100.

Your millage is obviously going to vary based on your preconceptions and your definitions of "helpful" and "a--hat"

[Oddsodz]

Simple fix. Code all sniper kits so that only I can have them. Issue solved

[Mikemonster]

edit:
we should rather remove the GTLD from the officer kit than removing the sniper kit, since you all say that other kits can fulfill the role of a spotter/FAC as good as a sniper. Wheres the logic in then saying to remove the sniper rather in removing the spotting ability from the other kits to point out the snipers role?

Actually i'd be very happy with that - if that occurred the SL's would need to use more basic methods (i.e. actually talking) to CAS, and the sniper kit would fulfill a proper purpose.

Good suggestion. I like it a lot

Actually I like it 10x a lot. Snipers would then become an asset and tied to the CAS squad (meaning they would be too busy to use the gun apart from important targets), and SL's wouldn't be able to troll the enemy CAS with silly fake lazes. If someone took the kit they'd be denying their team's CAS a proper pair of eyes, and could be punished/kicked accordingly as if they'd stolen an APC.

And the SL would be left more to squad leading - even though he could still talk to CAS for important targets he wouldn't have to 'Oh lol nemie sniper laze him lololol'.

[Mikemonster]

Nah, I say leave it. It so much fun to be on the receiving end As soon as one of your squadmates goes down everyone start looking for cover like babies. Then someone peeks around corner with binoculars and goes "Hey, I think I found him!" and suddenly BANG another one drops dead. Then you call CAS or APC to fuck his shit up, I say it encourages even more teamwork and coordination. The more potentional objectives your team can find during public matches the more interesting the games are. Sometimes you have to destroy AA or APC, and sometimes hunt down sniper...and its fun

If you want to. We normally just ignore him and if it's a slow round I might bother to mark him on the map. If it's a slower round we supress him, bitpointless though as he just relocates in plain sight to repeat the tedious process. Headshotting him by coincidence is always lulzworthy though.

Using argument that by some players they are not used "realistically" is just silly. Sorry guys but you can say that about any asset in game and none complains about removing HAT kits(how many times have I seen lonewolf HAT and engineer on enemies first flag just to shoot APC going to front-line?) or APCs (which rolls like mad around objectives at full gas shooting every window and building possible without any infantry cover). The problem is when you loose chopper or APC everyone starts bitching because its high valuable asset. Sniper is not, I don't mind if he seats in a bush on hill and snipes down TOW/AA operators or some noobs which think they do not need any cover. I don't even notice snipers which are in the same team or when they die. I can't see any negative influence, from a single sniper sitting somewhere, on the rest of the team. It is the same as he even wasn't there.

Yes, APC and HAT's are used unrealistically, but the PR team takes steps to prevent this using game mechanics and kit availability, etc etc. It's getting gradually better. So why not the Sniper Kit?

Bits in red: Pretty much demonstrates how pointless the Sniper Kit is, even from someone who supports it.

[Zoddom]

And the SL would be left more to squad leading - even though he could still talk to CAS for important targets he wouldn't have to 'Oh lol nemie sniper laze him lololol'.

And thats exactly what its supposed to be. Irl you cant just call in a pinpoint strike when youre under fire, if you dont have a gtld or what you need for designating a target for a JDAM strike (which should be easier to do than lasing a target... i think GPS is more common than GTLDs in any army, am i right?) you have to relay on simple gun or rocket strafes. And attack helis can still provide pretty accurate fire with their agm's.
Additionally I dont like seeing attack helis providing only halfhearted CAS, with what I mean chasing only heavy armored targets. Seeing helis providing CAS for and against infantry is so rarely. wheres the logic and realism in prefering a bomb strike rather than calling an apache for help???

[Cheditor]

Ignoring how effective the sniper rifle is in this patch seeing as just wounding a player takes a ticket, who here can actually say a two man sniper squad ruined the game for you and lost the round. I would go so far to say there isn't and anyone saying they have seen it happens is just putting the blame some where.

[Sidewinder Zulu]

Ignoring how effective the sniper rifle is in this patch seeing as just wounding a player takes a ticket, who here can actually say a two man sniper squad ruined the game for you and lost the round. I would go so far to say there isn't and anyone saying they have seen it happens is just putting the blame some where.

I was in a sniper squad a while back on Kashan which absolutely decimated the enemy team by calling in CAS and JDAMs on targets with their GLTDs. They only got like one or two kills with their rifles.
As has been said before, that's the sniper's greatest weapon, the laser designator, not the rifle.

Maybe doing something like severely reducing the amount of magazines a sniper has for their rifle could improve the realism. Like giving them only one or two spares.
That way snipers would realize that their rifle is just an accessory to their scope and GLTD, not their first-choice weapon.

[Silly_Savage]

If you wanted to take it a step further, you could make their primary weapon the GLTD. So when you first request the kit or pick it up, rather than first equipping the sniper rifle, you would pull out your GLTD.

It's a minor change at best, but it would at least give the player a slight indication that, "Hey, this thing must be pretty important if it's the first thing I take out compared to all the other kits which have their rifles as their primary weapons." It's more a psychological cue than anything else.

Food for thought anyways.

[Zoddom]

Maybe doing something like severely reducing the amount of magazines a sniper has for their rifle could improve the realism. Like giving them only one or two spares.
That way snipers would realize that their rifle is just an accessory to their scope and GLTD, not their first-choice weapon.

Thats not a good idea imo. The rifle is at least as important as the GLTD ...
The importance of each item depends on the map and the layout!

If you wanted to take it a step further, you could make their primary weapon the GLTD. So when you first request the kit or pick it up, rather than first equipping the sniper rifle, you would pull out your GLTD.

Simply making the Sniper the only kit carrying a GLTD would have a similar effect and would really have an impact on the players opinion of the sniper kit..

Rather than removing the kit we should really use the possibility to change it from an unnecessary kit to one of the most important ones. for the sake of PR....

[TheComedian]

wheres the logic and realism in prefering a bomb strike rather than calling an apache for help???

The answer to your question would be the unwillingness of pilots to risk losing their weapon for 20 minutes just to get someone who might get revived in 30 seconds after he gets killed.

[RealKail]

The answer to your question would be the unwillingness of pilots to risk losing their weapon for 20 minutes just to get someone who might get revived in 30 seconds after he gets killed.

Yeah that's one of the other things that irks me about this game. I wish it was possible to code where if you got hit with an explosion from something like a hellfire, you were down for the count and unrevivable.

[BroCop]

Thats not a good idea imo. The rifle is at least as important as the GLTD ...
The importance of each item depends on the map and the layout!

Simply making the Sniper the only kit carrying a GLTD would have a similar effect and would really have an impact on the players opinion of the sniper kit..

Rather than removing the kit we should really use the possibility to change it from an unnecessary kit to one of the most important ones. for the sake of PR....

So you would entrust one of the most important (hypothetical) kits to some random 1337 Cpt. Price wannabe?

The idea is even worse then what we got right now.

However I do like the idea that Spec Operator said about ammo. 1+ 2 spares. Enough ammo to take out high priorities, not enough to be sniping people constantly from the Muttrah mountains and makes the kit somewhat less desirable to the nooblets.

[Silly_Savage]

Should rename the kit to something along the lines of "Dishwasher", or "Cook". That should help repel all but the most dedicated players.

[Zoddom]

So you would entrust one of the most important (hypothetical) kits to some random 1337 Cpt. Price wannabe?

The idea is even worse then what we got right now.

However I do like the idea that Spec Operator said about ammo. 1+ 2 spares. Enough ammo to take out high priorities, not enough to be sniping people constantly from the Muttrah mountains and makes the kit somewhat less desirable to the nooblets.

Do you entrust an apache or a jet to some random 131312312390127482378435 guy?? no. and how do you enforce it?
IF the sniper kit would be that important as i imagine, it would be an precious asset for the team. just as a jet or a heli. how do you prevent a cpt price from taking a heli? how do you know if someones a moron?
and how are 15-30 rounds not enough to be sniping constantly? I havent seen many snipers having a 15+ kill streak.

the problem is that the sniper kit is not good enough to be desired by good players. on the other hand good players flame bad ones when they take the kit. wheres the logic??
if it was more important to the team, then more good players would request it / want it. that will make them report guys who dont use it right so they could get kicked. just like when some noob takes a heli and flies away.

[goguapsy]

Should rename the kit to something along the lines of "Dishwasher", or "Cook". That should help repel all but the most dedicated players.

Agreed.

But the forums would be flooded with flames (lol...) by new-comers wondering how did that guy get the "sniper" unlock...

[Acecombatzer0]

I brought this topic up before, but why don't snipers zoom out of the scope to rotate the bolt? (like the vBF2 M24 and M95)

That might encourage snipers to take out high priority targets- their role.

[goguapsy]

That might encourage snipers to take out high priority targets- their role.

How does "un-scoping" help at all?

I actually find the weird bolt animation whiled zoomed to be actually more distracting than unscoping.

[Truism]

It doesn't and snipers shouldn't be encouraged to be taking out high priority targets, they should be given real to life capabilities that they then apply to the tactical situation as they see fit, generating effects for a commander that contribute to a plan.

Maybe that means killing grunts in a given area to deny freedom of movement. Maybe that means pinning squads who make a poorly considered decision. Maybe that means killing weapon crews to enable other friendly actions.

Maybe that means attriting the enemy by killing whoever they can safely.

The PR community is so far from understanding what they're talking about when it comes to how individual actions contribute to a realistic battle that threads like these rapidly degenerate into people spilling unfounded opinions that run very much counter to the much neglected implied design goal of the mod - "reality".

[Quick]

I am always SL, and I don't mind having capable players requesting the sniper kit in my squad. However, if they do, I make them stay close until we get into situations in which they become useful.

Typically it will happen like this:
1. We sight enemy infantry.
2. Sniper finds good spot to sit while the rest of the squad tries to covertly get closer.
3. As we approach the sniper is talking about what the enemy is doing etc.
4. Once we engage the sniper provides important information on enemy movement, and takes shots when needed.

Making a designated "Sniper Squad" effective takes lots of skill, experience and patience. People are rarely successful in doing so. And just getting kills does not mean success.

The approach I outlined may not accurately simulate a "real sniper role" but it is an effective use of the asset in PR. Having the sniper be in a squad with other infantry allows faster and more accurate communication. The awareness during a firefight that a good squad sniper provides is priceless. And his ability to make a shot when it counts is almost equally valuable.


My proposition to fix the sniper issue? Require a sniper to be in a squad of 4 or more. And make sure he can't join a squad, get the kit, and quit. That will get rid of your lone-wolf noob sniper problem.