Weapon aiming does not fit reality

[Mikemonster]

Good point.. Can Ninja-Dan comment?

[Integ3r]

I can understand why they are using the deviation system, and IMO, it can be as complex as quantum physics for all I care. BUT, what I cannot understand is that there is absolutely no form of deviation indicator. (other than, "lol count to 5 u nub l2p" which is by no means universal.)

Since dying is very penalizing in this game (respawn time and walking walking walking) it is very frustrating to not be able to hit anything because you are not given enough information about your own state. Finding exact number stats is proving quite difficult unless I actually extract the game-files and have a look. The simple (and realistic) solution is to simply provide information to the player that they realistically would know. There is no reason to have to memorize 'fuzzy values' like deviation increase on turning, movement, etc.

I would know "in general" how accurate my shot will be while aiming down sights (yes, I have shot a bit IRL, you do indeed know in general how accurate you are when taking precise shots -_-), especially if it will hit waaay off target. I would know how fatigued I am and how it affects my aim etc. (as the body provides this feedback, you can't really help it ) It would then make sense to have some sort of indicator.

I'm not downright asking for "crosshairs" (though I personally wouldn't mind), as I know some of you "reality buffs" would get their panties in a bunch when seeing anything remotely resembling an interface, but anything would help.
(Color coded icon, accuracy/readiness bar that increases/decreases with deviation)

The sniper has the "breathing" aid. It works for snipers since they have all the time in the world, and so waiting a few extra seconds doesn't matter much. But for close quarters infantry combat, it would really help if you KNEW that you're actually fatigued and so you'll wait a few seconds before storming off to clear that room.

EDIT: I don't know if it's possible, but for ADS, the "crosshair" could disappear once '100%' accuracy is achieved. That way it's non-obscuring.

[killonsight95]

seriously..... just no, don't forget it also takes into account enviromental features which cannot be controlled, IRL you will never know 100% if you will hit that target 600 meters away, if you can't count to 5 in your head you can't know how to aim a gun. it's not hard to understand and it's simple:

- If you move your deveation increases gradulally over 5 seconds from 0 - full
- it take 5 seconds to get full accuracy after you have move for more than 5 seconds.
- Going prone put deviation back to full
- moving while in deployed mode put deviation to full (?)
- If you shoot to get back to the exact accuracy you were at before it take 1 second.

Those 5 points arn't hard to learn, if you can't learn them then go on ArmA

[Integ3r]

Not sure if you're responding to me exactly, but:

seriously..... just no, don't forget it also takes into account enviromental features which cannot be controlled, IRL you will never know 100% if you will hit that target 600 meters away,

Of course I can grant you that, but you must grant me that you CAN know if you'll hit roughly NEAR the target. (consider that you are trying to make an accurate shot). The only exception would be hip spray to some degree.

if you can't count to 5 in your head you can't know how to aim a gun. it's not hard to understand and it's simple:

- If you move your deveation increases gradulally over 5 seconds from 0 - full
- it take 5 seconds to get full accuracy after you have move for more than 5 seconds.
- Going prone put deviation back to full
- moving while in deployed mode put deviation to full (?)
- If you shoot to get back to the exact accuracy you were at before it take 1 second.

Not universal, and are just 'fuzzy rules' for what is actually going on. Besides, you missed one: deviation is added as you turn/move the reticule.

It's bad for new players, and bad for gameplay if your aim is suddenly messed up from unknown conditions that should be under your control. It can all be eliminated with an indicator.

[Mikemonster]

I've got used to (after 10 months) the deviation (it's instinctive now to wait), but i'm still unsure about the turning the sight/reticule.

That's a helluva learning curve. Mind you I still count, under my breath.. LOL.

[RealKail]

The deviation for when you turn a corner isn't that bad, unless you're using a HAT or scoped marksman kit. At the very least, the between-shot deviation needs to be toned down a tad, and the deviation reduction from bringing up your sights increased.

I think changing the deviation increase time would be a bit better as well. Maybe instead of 5 seconds of movement maxing you out, make it something a bit more realistic like 20-30 seconds of running. Walking shouldn't add that much deviation, because you're not rushing around to become out of breath to cause you to have a lot of deviation.

I do think some sort of deviation indicator would be beneficial and wouldn't necessarily be un-realistic. As was stated before, in real life you'd know how much "deviation" you have.

[captcalvin]

I don't think standing still and going into ironsights then sit around waiting for an invisible reticule to shrink is very convincing either. how about having a fixed bullet spread to simulate the fact that some weapons aren't always dead on accurate, then add different levels of scope/ironsight drift to simulate different levels of combat effectiveness which is affected by stamina, stance and health? This i think is waaaay more realistic then what we have now. Arma had a pretty good system imho.

[Conman51]

Nope can't be done. If the devs could of they would have by now.

[Atkinson]

I find the reasoning behind Integ3rs argument convincing but I would not implement a crosshair to overcome this. Anything that is in the middle of the screen and is part of the hud is pretty much an immersion breaker.

As long as there is no visual sway for the barrel, there must be some other than "count to 5" to account for the deviation/sway.

How about a similar scale that the stamina has, but with different color and that scale works backwards, so when you stand still those little line segments diminish and every time u move/change stance/whatnot they appear again.

If there was no scale for the stamina, the same argument could be applied to it as well; As long as there is no audio/visual indications of the stamina, there has to be some other method to convey that information to the player and not just say "count to 5" and start running again.

[OkitaMakoto]

This was posted a while back but just to refresh those who might not have seen it. This was accomplished by Mosquill. Look at the bottom right of the screen (turn info balloons on if you cant see it, run in HD)

A small little "reticule" thats discreet but also changes color based on expected deviation.

However, Im totally out of the PR loop as to the state of this as PR stands now
But it looks like a "No" judging by Mosquill's comments:

"Are there plans to use the deviation indicator to be used ingame or even put into 0.95?"

fireflyman 8 months ago 2

@fireflyman

"No."

YouTube - PR: Deviation Indicator, Functional UGL and Backup Sights

[captcalvin]

how about not having the deviation affected so much by firing? i think the recoil already simulates "deviation" quite effectively and having deviation increase on top of that is a bit redundant.

[Lange]

Im actually working on tweaking the min dev values to make the overall bullet spread not so intense and a bit more reasonable. Will post vids when I get more confident with it.

[Atkinson]

OkitaMakoto;1594563']
YouTube - PR: Deviation Indicator, Functional UGL and Backup Sights

That would do the trick imo. Subtle, small, but still gives the necessary info that the current system does not provide, info which would be obvious in real life.

Is the current system like meant to be one of those features, which is considered "skill" when you learn how it works?
Which is reasonable, but the downside is that new players have no idea how the deviation system works which results in a lot of screaming in the chat; "WTF, why cant I hit s*it?".

The current system without any visual indication is just counter intuitive when it comes to new players.

[killonsight95]

i understood deviation when i first started playing and i was like 13 and hardly played games at all.

[Atkinson]

i understood deviation when i first started playing and i was like 13 and hardly played games at all.

I bet many ppl understand deviation. But what I think that they won't understand is that there is some magical mechanism that increases and decreases deviation without any visual feedback. Which is the whole point of this thread afaik.


Anyhow, it seems that this topic has the most posts and is the most viewed in this sub-forum which should mean something to the devs, right?

[Robskie]

Lower Deviation by 15%.

Problem Solved.

[cheesus182]

I do agree, sometimes its a pain when you have a sudden number of enemies running at you, and you have to lay down first hope they dont move past your sight or even see you before your rifle is ready to shoot.

But one thing is for sure.
Iron sighted weapons are way more accurate on short to medium distance when standing or aiming just for a couple of seconds than a scoped weapon.

Medic is therefore on maps like Muttrah the absoloutely best kit to use.

[Stogie]

Deviation is truly a pain in the ***, i understand IF there is dev when you move, but dev when shooting while aiming down the sights makes it unrealistic, you already have to deal with the recoil of the weapon. Had a real WTF moment while aiming at a window, cause i knew that the enemy will shoot out of it, saw him, shoot on round at him (aimed at his chest with the L85a2 Susat), bullet just hit the wall, great.

[TheComedian]

Anyhow, it seems that this topic has the most posts and is the most viewed in this sub-forum which should mean something to the devs, right?

Most of this thread's content is people raging that they can't shoot somebody like in CoD and various scenarios of people who got pwned because they didn't wait 1-2 seconds for their deviation to settle. Very little constructive feedback.