Removal of helicopter carried Anti-Air missiles

[spiked_rye]

I quite like the idea of a radar that only detects if they go high, something new for the commander to do

Yeah, could be an idea, like it only works if you have a CO in the tent? Would be a good suggestion for this thread here:

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... -jdam.html

[LongHairedHuman]

-snip-
Would be a good suggestion for this thread here:

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/f18-pr ... -jdam.html

Done, added a reply to that tread.

[SGT.Ice]

Where did he say that? Right, he didn't.

It was implied, guess you've never heard of that one.

In vanilla you'd just one-shot enemy helos with the TV-Guided missiles. So no.

If you can hit them, last time I played and did that all I got was rammed.

You're saying that your gunner is so unbelievably bad you even forgot about him?

Actually yea. That's why I learned to use my HUD and aim my missles.

I quite like the idea of a radar that only detects if they go high, something new for the commander to do

Beats playing chess while waiting to hear back from my SL's for an hour.

[SuperHornet]

That wasn't implied at all.

[chrisweb89]

SGT.Ice, let me clarify. Please do not assume stuff that I don't say. If I wanted PR attack choppers to be all about the spamming of hydras I would have come out and said that. Don't attempt to read mine, or other's minds.

This has nothing to do with vanilla, but since you bring it up once again you are wrong. Most vanilla fights involved long range TV missiles and lots of barrel rolls to dodge them, being in close enough for hydras, or getting killed by them was rare.

You sure it was your gunner that was bad, or you just not giving him a shot and not communicating between each other? If you fly only thinking of your own weapons as pilot ofcourse you would assume everyone else wants to spam hydras. But we don't.

I suggested this not to start never ending battles between circling choppers, I started it to allow them to worry about their job which is killing ground targets, and to force the ground troops to worry about the enemy air, not just assume their chopper will deal with it. If you do decide to engage another chopper and AA missile were removed, then their removal would allow a lot more possibilites in the fight. Sure the fight could just be the two choppers circling each other for 2 minutes, or it could be they retreat back to their frienly AA and attempt to lure the enemy to them.

[MrTomRobs]

I quite like the ideas i've heard so far (going back up to page 7...) - if AAMs were removed, it would be more realistic because 1) most (if not all) gunships don't have them anyway, gunships rarely spend time fighting other gunships and are designed to provide CAS, which last time i checked, involves launching missiles, rockets and cannon rounds at enemy tanks, apcs and infantry. this would bring the whole thing back to providing a proper experience which is what PR is mostly about!

the limiting of the service ceiling to about 1000m would be good as well, meaning that anything above it isn't basically invincible, and it would help to bring AA vehicles back into the game. I know i've not played as much as i'd like to recently but i've rarely seen AA vehicles actually being used. You might even get some proper logistics squads going, with trucks, IFVs and AA convoys going.

Sure, you may get a couple of vanilla style dogfights going on, but if the other squads are doing they jobs properly (which little tweaks like this would help to get going), one of the pilots could lure the other towards their AA and get them shot down, which would be a potential turn off for the dogfights in the first place! I mean, sure, if i'm an apache gunner and i see a hind flying over the hill, of course i'll lob a couple of rounds its way in order to turn it off. all these little bits try and get the whole air supremacy thing going through a bit of common sense and team work.

And besides, if you did need someone to shoot down an enemy gunship from the air, what happened to the jets???

[Murphy]

Jets and choppers are rarely found on the same layer, and when there are choppers are generally scared to do anything until the enemy jet is dealt with.

I also disagree with lowering the ceiling as some AA can shoot into the fog.

[SGT.Ice]

SGT.Ice, let me clarify. Please do not assume stuff that I don't say. If I wanted PR attack choppers to be all about the spamming of hydras I would have come out and said that. Don't attempt to read mine, or other's minds.

This has nothing to do with vanilla, but since you bring it up once again you are wrong. Most vanilla fights involved long range TV missiles and lots of barrel rolls to dodge them, being in close enough for hydras, or getting killed by them was rare.

You sure it was your gunner that was bad, or you just not giving him a shot and not communicating between each other? If you fly only thinking of your own weapons as pilot ofcourse you would assume everyone else wants to spam hydras. But we don't.

I suggested this not to start never ending battles between circling choppers, I started it to allow them to worry about their job which is killing ground targets, and to force the ground troops to worry about the enemy air, not just assume their chopper will deal with it. If you do decide to engage another chopper and AA missile were removed, then their removal would allow a lot more possibilites in the fight. Sure the fight could just be the two choppers circling each other for 2 minutes, or it could be they retreat back to their frienly AA and attempt to lure the enemy to them.

Not true actually, last time I played vanilla I got rammed a lot while TV guiding rockets into choppers/other vehicles alike. While TV Guiding is the primary way of killing other vehicles it's not the only way that people like to use. Lol my flying skills are actually pretty good and most people aren't as good as me whe nit comes to TV guided missles, that's why im usually stuck at gunning. And so much for not assuming things.

Their job is to take care of ground targets and survive. They were created for a reason and that was to prevent the air from doing it's job and allowing it to defend itself. Using CAS shouldn't as be easy it should be hard, taking away AA missles just makes it that much easier for them to hover over an area and not have a care in the world.

I quite like the ideas i've heard so far (going back up to page 7...) - if AAMs were removed, it would be more realistic because 1) most (if not all) gunships don't have them anyway, gunships rarely spend time fighting other gunships and are designed to provide CAS, which last time i checked, involves launching missiles, rockets and cannon rounds at enemy tanks, apcs and infantry. this would bring the whole thing back to providing a proper experience which is what PR is mostly about!

the limiting of the service ceiling to about 1000m would be good as well, meaning that anything above it isn't basically invincible, and it would help to bring AA vehicles back into the game. I know i've not played as much as i'd like to recently but i've rarely seen AA vehicles actually being used. You might even get some proper logistics squads going, with trucks, IFVs and AA convoys going.

Sure, you may get a couple of vanilla style dogfights going on, but if the other squads are doing they jobs properly (which little tweaks like this would help to get going), one of the pilots could lure the other towards their AA and get them shot down, which would be a potential turn off for the dogfights in the first place! I mean, sure, if i'm an apache gunner and i see a hind flying over the hill, of course i'll lob a couple of rounds its way in order to turn it off. all these little bits try and get the whole air supremacy thing going through a bit of common sense and team work.

And besides, if you did need someone to shoot down an enemy gunship from the air, what happened to the jets???

Mi-24 Hind

Mil Mi-24 helicopter - development history, photos, technical data

Mil Mi-24 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AH-64A Apache Armament

MI-28 Havoc Attack Helicopter

OH-58D Kiowa Warrior

Helicopter Gunships ? The Aviationist

Z-10 Attack Helicopter | Military-Today.com

China vs. India Military Match-Ups

Not the best sources but they work.



Limiting the ceiling though i'm all for. Having a cobra at 1K+ and not being able to hear or see is pretty annoying.


AA missle's are not used a whole lot currently due to the fact we maintain air superiority currently and there is nothing to really shoot down. most AH have the capability to arm them but do not simply because there is very few threats in the sky aside from maybe a commercial liners.

[simeon5541]

I don't know about this,
maybe best solution would be a removal of AA rockets on some maps,but not at all.

[SGT.Ice]

I don't know about this,
maybe best solution would be a removal of AA rockets on some maps,but not at all.

That defeats the purpose of removing them in the first place. Why would you remove it on some but keep it on others anyway?

[General Dragosh]

If there's a war going on then there would be much more sense to have some as a backup for self defense

And since pr is a WAR only game having AA as standard equipment would make sense

[Murphy]

Limiting the ceiling though i'm all for. Having a cobra at 1K+ and not being able to hear or see is pretty annoying.

I think the ceiling should be left as IRL these cas choppers would fire from miles away from their intended target, while in PR they have to dive and get within 500 meters from their targets to put munitions down on them. I don't think choppers do anything nearly as risky as this when they know AA is a possible threat and in PR we know AA is always a threat.

At least give the chopper pilots a way to be relatively safe from AA/other Helis, otherwise they will, by game mechanic, be forced to stay with AA range all game every game.

[Tarranauha200]

AFAIK there was dogfights beetween cobras and Mil Mi-24s in Iran-Iraq war.

[Tarranauha200]

Post failed, plz remove.

[ExeTick]

Keep the AA missiles.

there easy to avoid anyway with Cobra/apache/havoc/z-10 when you get attacked from enemy Cas.

dont make it harder then it already is with AA missiles.

[Alex6714]

It?s probably been mentioned before, but remember that even if a helicopter isn?t packing the AA missiles, it can probably use the ATGMs for it anyway, albeit not so effective I guess.

Edit: In real life.

[Stealthgato]

It would actually bring some skill into choppers fighting eachother. DO EET

[40mmrain]

Perhaps, change the loadout to 1 sidewinder, or something?

I mean, theyre pretty unrealistic as is, with the real sidewinder having a range that would span across any PR map. Not to mention how little the amount of flares a current attack chopper carries. Perhaps just one would be far more skill based, as there is no room to risk missing a shot, and it becomes easier for the helo being pursued to keep track of when the enemy is out of heat seekers, which changes the nature of the fight drastically? This sort of stuff is experimental, but is worth testing. ALthough I do enjoy the heli vs heli combat to an extent, it seems as if it's more or less random who wins, and no matter the pilot they win or lose at a pretty close ratio. This differs from something like armour which has a much high skill ceiling.

One thing that could happen by removing the air to air missiles, would be that instead of actively engaging each other, the choppers may be wise to simply avoid each other, as chasing an enemy helicopter can be dangerous should he fly into his friendly AA. Im not sure if this is good or bad, but it is something to consider.

[chrisweb89]

One thing that could happen by removing the air to air missiles, would be that instead of actively engaging each other, the choppers may be wise to simply avoid each other, as chasing an enemy helicopter can be dangerous should he fly into his friendly AA. Im not sure if this is good or bad, but it is something to consider.

That is exactly what I want from this suggestion, the primary job of choppers is to provide CAS, not hunt each other all across the map. I think leaving the killing of choppers to jets and AA would be a good thing.

[40mmrain]

That is exactly what I want from this suggestion, the primary job of choppers is to provide CAS, not hunt each other all across the map. I think leaving the killing of choppers to jets and AA would be a good thing.

yeah but that causes an.. interesting conundrum. The attack helicopters in PR are super valuable assets, they make instant scrap out of armour, are a nightmare for trans helos, and do a number on infantry. If you are gunship pilot and spot the enemy chopper, for the sake of winning the game, by keeping your teammates alive it's in your best interest in trying to kill the enemy chopper. Despite not having the best weapons for the job, it's still certainly possible to down the enemies with cannon, rockets and hellfire. Even though youre risking yourself you simply can not ignore the enemy, it's just selfish.

I know what you mean, though. It is a little bit silly that the choppers buzz around the map at 2km alt lookin for each other, as opposed to looking for tanks, but, it's even sillier to have choppers flying around ignoring each other, because they know that they'll probably die trying to kill each other. The same thing happens with jets, tanks, apcs, anything. Jets are always looking for each other, even if their role in PR is really bombing. Tanks always go after one another, even though theyre really supposed to be assaulting or defending flags. But there's really nothing wrong with that. It's an inevitable part of modern warfare. Sure tanks, helicopters, and jets are all for CAS, or fire support, but theyre also there to kill each other, in PR and real life.

I think as of now the AA missiles are so good, and flare suck so hard that the "flying around at 2km alt" strategy is incredibly fruitful. Meaning that everytime you see the enemy he dies. If this weren't the case, and escaping was possible, then the choppers would more likely be looking for enemy tanks, even if they had missiles. What if the missiles took longer to lock, or more flares were given, or flares did a better job, or only 1 missiles at a time, or something? If this were the case, then the choppers that flew around looking for targets, would be more effective than those at 2KM alt, because even though the enemy has the drop on them, and is above them, they can still get away to main, or friendly AA. But, unlike the choppers that are flying at 2K, theyre actually killing targets, and bleeding tickets from the enemy.

If you want a game where the attack choppers are actively hunting for armour and infantry, and never attack each other because it's pointless, I want a similar game where they fly around looking for targets, but when they contact each other, at least sometimes they engage.

An other possible solution is that on all 4KM maps with attack helos, they have no missiles, and each side has a dedicated air superiority fighter with only air to air missiles, and guns. SO for shijia, brits get a typhoon, chinese a j10, for kashan with helos, a mig29 vs an f15C, etc. This wouldnt give either side more CAS, so it wouldnt bork the balance. So then, either side has air power with AA ability, but the choppers do their CAS job exclusively.